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Female Pastors & Bible Teachers

Discussion in 'Singles (Only*)' started by JasperJackson, Jan 20, 2011.

  1. Brad2009

    Brad2009 Newbie

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    I was looking around at Greek prepositions earlier and I couldn't find a Koine Greek equivalent of "by" fwiw. We may be somewhat spoiled by the rich English lexicon.

    No, that's not what I'm doing. I was taking out the whole prepositional phrase not just the preposition. "A&J are of note" makes perfect sense, just as "Jesus was born" makes perfect sense. I think we should do a concordance search to see what uses en has and if it is used as a Koine Greek equivalent for "by". It will be alot, but I trust that between us we can parse the information.


    As I said, I think a concordance search is in order because now we are dickering over whether a more descriptive preposition in modern english ("by") had a Koine Greek equivalent.

    This is fun by the way :) I'm glad to do this sort of work, looking at the raw data rather than trusting informed opinions.
     
  2. GQ Chris

    GQ Chris ooey gooey is for brownies, not Bible teachers

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    Were there ever any Female Apostles in the Bible? Or Levitical Priests?
     
  3. Brad2009

    Brad2009 Newbie

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    Just follow me and Tamara's aside on Junia here... I think we can work it out, but we're not there yet.
     
  4. GQ Chris

    GQ Chris ooey gooey is for brownies, not Bible teachers

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    That was already highly debated by Scholars. Junia is a man, just like Aquila is a man.
     
  5. r035198x

    r035198x Junior Member

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    I don't know how much we should read into that the letter was written to Timothy.
    The second letter that he also addressed to Timothy contains "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine ...."

    My opinion on the subject?

    There are no genders in the Spirit. When not in the Spirit, some men are women and should be silent in church. I would need Spiritual discernment to silence a female preacher if they claim that they are preaching in the Spirit.
    I also think that this issue is given more importance than it deserves.
     
  6. GQ Chris

    GQ Chris ooey gooey is for brownies, not Bible teachers

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    LOL. That is the most ridiculous thing I ever heard.
     
  7. GQ Chris

    GQ Chris ooey gooey is for brownies, not Bible teachers

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    That Galatians 3:28 verse is the one egalitarians love to twist the most to fit their agenda. In our relationship to Christ, as individuals, gender distinctions are irrelevant, but on earth, and our relationships with each other, God has not blurred any of that.
     
  8. r035198x

    r035198x Junior Member

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    You haven't read many of my posts then.

    Still waiting for you to say what is ridiculous in the post and why.
     
  9. GQ Chris

    GQ Chris ooey gooey is for brownies, not Bible teachers

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    ..well basically where the people who agree with that line of thinking want to eliminate anything having to do with gender distinctions. Where everyone is genderless eunuchs.
     
  10. Brad2009

    Brad2009 Newbie

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    We've got one other close example which is formed from the same root words:

    Matthew 27:16 εἶχον δὲ τότε δέσμιον ἐπίσημον λεγόμενον [Ἰησοῦν] Βαραββᾶν.
    They had then a notable prisoner, called Barabbas.

    Transliterations of both:
    <Romans 16:7 example> episémos
    <Matthew 27:16 example> epis&#275;mon
     
  11. r035198x

    r035198x Junior Member

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    What line of thinking? I'm starting to think that you did not read my post at all. I thought you were going to say what you found ridiculous in it.

    There are no genders in the Spirit.
    Doyou perhaps think that there are genders in the Spirit?

    When not in the Spirit, some
    men are women and should be silent in church.
    Or do you perhaps think that any man can preach in Church just because they are male?
     
  12. GQ Chris

    GQ Chris ooey gooey is for brownies, not Bible teachers

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    You're sounding too Gnostic for me man, sorry.
     
  13. GQ Chris

    GQ Chris ooey gooey is for brownies, not Bible teachers

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    You're talking as if I can just pop in and out of Spirit whenever I want.
     
  14. r035198x

    r035198x Junior Member

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    You probably can't but you need to be in the Spirit when preaching.
     
  15. Tamara224

    Tamara224 Well-Known Member

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    That's not what I believe 1 Timothy 2:12-15 is talking about.

    I think the false teaching Paul was addressing in that passage was a form of goddess worship that taught that Eve was created first and that Adam was deceived. It taught that women had special gnosis - a stronger connection to the spiritual/mystical and should rule over men.

    Historical research has shown that such a cult existed in Ephesus at the time.

    That would perfectly explain why Paul brought Adam and Eve into the mix.

    I see lots of reasons that give rise to questions if, indeed, Paul was using the example of Adam and Eve to explain why no woman should ever teach or be in authority over any man.

    The first is the numerous examples of women teaching and being in authority over men in Scripture. If it was a universal law based on the created order then God would never break that law. But God appointed Deborah to be the leader [in authority] over all of the men in Israel and to judge them and teach them. Even one example of a woman being given the role of leader by God destroys the claim that God created us unfit to lead. Yet there are many examples of women exercising authority in Scripture.

    The second reason is the implication present. If Paul's reason for women not being in authority is because Eve was deceived, then the implication is that all women are more deceivable than all men. I am not alone in finding such an implication morally repugnant. It suggests that women are morally inferior to men. And why would women's deceivableness make them unfit to teach or exercise authority only over men? If women are more prone to being deceived than men are, then why can women teach and exercise authority over other women and children? If men are less likely to be deceived, then wouldn't they be stronger and so less likely to be led in deception by the women? But other women who are also more deceivable would have no protection against a deceived woman leading them! It makes no sense. If the reason women shouldn't teach or exercise authority is because Eve was deceived, then they shouldn't teach or exercise authority, period. But Paul only says "over a man." Also, why did Paul say "a woman" and "a man". If he meant it to apply to all women and all men, then why didn't he say "women" and "men"?

    The third reason is the word authentein in that passage. Like I said earlier, it only appears once in Scripture and, as the articles I linked to note, the proper translation is not "have authority" but "usurp authority" with the connotation of committing murder. If Paul had meant a regular exercise of authority (i.e. the kind of authority that would be unquestioned if a man were exercising it) he would have used the word exousia. Paul had in mind a specific kind of action that some woman, or women, were doing in Ephesus at the time.

    The fourth reason is what follows in the passage: " But women will be saved through childbearing&#8212;if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety." This seems to say that women can only be saved by having children. As we all know, we are all saved by grace, through faith, not by works. And not all women have children.

    Furthermore, the translators have taken some liberties with this passage. It shouldn't be "women will be saved through childbearing," it should be "the woman [singular] will be saved through the childbearing, if they continue in faith..." This indicates that "a woman" that Paul doesn't want to teach or authentein "a man" is "the woman" that will be saved through the childbearing if they ("a woman" and "a man") continue in faith. "The childbearing" is a noun in the sentence not a verb, which means that a particular birth is in mind. I'm of the opinion that it's referring to Christ's birth. And again, combating a gnostic heresy.

    Dia (#1223)

    Even worse.

    Oh, sure it does. So does "A&J are noteworthy" and "A&J are outstanding".

    But you had to remove a whole phrase from Scripture to make it mean that. You can't just take out a whole phrase from the sentence and say it has no meaning. If we remove words and phrases from Scripture, we can make any verse say anything we want it to say.

    Greek prepositions:

    http://www.stfonline.org/pdf/rev/appendix%20c_commentary.pdf

    Actually, Greek had more propositions than English.

    Neither of us is looking at the raw data. Strongs is an informed opinion.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2011
  16. Tamara224

    Tamara224 Well-Known Member

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    Junia is a female name. Yes, it was debated by scholars. And besides the notable exception of Grudem and Piper, Greek scholars all agree that Junia was always a female name and never a male.
     
  17. Tamara224

    Tamara224 Well-Known Member

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    Then only free male Jews can be leaders in the Church. Gentiles, women and slaves are all out if the distinctions still exist.
     
  18. Tamara224

    Tamara224 Well-Known Member

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    And if we follow your logic, Barabbas wasn't a prisoner, he was just known by prisoners.
     
  19. GQ Chris

    GQ Chris ooey gooey is for brownies, not Bible teachers

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    This argument is about as valid as the ones where homosexuals vehemently claim that King David was homosexual in his relationship to Jonathan. Just sayin.
     
  20. MacFall

    MacFall Agorist

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    Not even remotely comparable. There is scriptural evidence (not only that, but scriptural instances) of women in leadership. The nature of Jonathan and David's relationship (sexual or otherwise) is pure speculation. You're basically just engaging in name-calling here.
     
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