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Female Pastors & Bible Teachers

Discussion in 'Singles (Only*)' started by JasperJackson, Jan 20, 2011.

  1. Tamara224

    Tamara224 Well-Known Member

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    Andrew, I know you sincerely believe that you're not interpreting Scripture.

    That doesn't make it true.

    You are interpreting it just by reading it. As soon as you attach meaning to the words that you read, you have interpreted.

    To suggest that anyone can say what the Bible means without interpreting is a logical fallacy. The only question is whether an interpretation is good or bad, founded or unfounded, reasonable or unreasonable.

    And, personally, I find very little value in the idea that the best interpretation of Scripture is the one that is least informed. IOW, any hermeneutic that has at its core the principal of ignoring context is a bad hermeneutic. Any interpretation that ignores the fact that Scripture wasn't originally written in English is a bad interpretation. The "plain reading" of the English translations is, in fact, an interpretation of an interpretation. Any interpretation that fails to take into account the influences of the interpreter's own preconceptions and doesn't seek to understand the culture and ideology of the author, is a biased interpretation.

    It sounds nice to say "let's just read what it plainly says". But as this thread should show, what it "plainly says" is different for each of us. I believe that the whole of Scripture, taken all together, plainly indicates that Jesus Christ doesn't discriminate based on gender when assigning individuals' roles in the Body.

    You think it "plainly says" that God won't assign certain roles to women.

    So, it boils down to a disagreement over interpretation. But neither of us can claim that we're not interpreting.
     
  2. Apollo Celestio

    Apollo Celestio Deal with it.

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    Are you saying the unmarried cannot be deacons either? Deaconesses have existed since the second century at the most.. and I'm not talking about Phoebe.
     
  3. Sri

    Sri Member

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    but Phoebe was one of them and there are many ministry positions held by women, like prophetess like Miriam. There is Debrah the judge and Philip's daughters.
     
  4. Andrew12

    Andrew12 A Knight of the Lord

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    As it has been stated before. and this is My last post Here, the Bible says what it says, and regardless of traditions or interpretations, I stand firm beside what the Bible says, not how any man nor woman interperets it.


    Quite frankly, it is not discrimination, it is differentiation.

    Thanks. ~God Bless!~
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2011
  5. MacFall

    MacFall Agorist

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    As Tamara just said, you stand by your interpretation of an English translation of what the Bible, factually, says. You have no special gnosis of the Bible that we don't.
     
  6. Sunset2009

    Sunset2009 Guest

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    How is it discrimination? Paul wrote about orderly worship, it says in the Bible that God is a God of order. Why can't men and women have different roles in the Church, just as they have different roles in the home? That IS a biblical concept. I am sick of people calling Christ, the Bible, Paul discriminating solely because we were given instruction of order in the church. It is so much better than chaos. We cannot willy nilly do as we please (look at the current generation). Thank heavens we were given instruction and order.

    There's no point in beating a dead horse, so I will sign off with this. The Bible is the word of God. And it is to be interpretted correctly. If you say women should preach, you have denied what the Scripture says, just as you have denied the true interpretation of Scripture if you were to say that homosexuality is not wrong. These Scriptures about women having authority don't even require a profound hermeneutic to simply read it and realize, that's what it says, that's what it means. Remember, the main things are the plain things in the Word.
     
  7. K9_Trainer

    K9_Trainer Unusually unusual, absolutely unpredictable

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    To tell somebody that they can NOT perform a task or hold a position based on a biological aspect that they cannot control is discrimination. You can't really get around that.

    The rules here say that discrimination based on sex isn't allowed. Sexism.....Yet, they made a special exception for discussions on "Biblical roles". If it wasn't sexism, an exception wouldn't have been needed. Because its in the bible, it's apparently ok to a lot of people.

    If thats what you want to believe, then you have every right to believe it. If a racist wants to believe that his race is superior, that's his business regardless of whether I think he's wrong. But at least quit trying to get around the fact that it's sexual discrimination. There's no justification that makes it NOT discrimination.
     
  8. Brad2009

    Brad2009 Newbie

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    I have been in favor of going back to the Greek and checking the surrounding passages to inform the meaning from the get-go, I'm glad y'all have come around. In fact, that's what I was doing earlier. If that's really what you would like to do, let's do it, cause I'm game.

    Performing the exegesis yourself is a very informative process and not that hard (thanks internet). I think these types of arguments can be resolved by doing so since we are often arguing about translations (which are faithful and scrupulous for the most part, but may sometimes lend themselves to ambiguity).

    Let's take a point that I thought I nailed down firm with the Greek but got brought right back up anyway:

    Junia, female apostle
    Sole mention of Junia is found in Romans 16:7, here's the NIV text of the verse, "7 Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was."

    A plain reading of the English NIV does seem to imply that Junia (definitely a female name) was an apostle. The surrounding verses do not serve in informing the meaning as this is an introduction by Paul to the specific persons of Andronicus and Junia and their sole mention in the text.

    Now let's look at the Greek, especially the phrase "They are outstanding among the apostles" as that is the basis for identifying Junia as an apostle:

    Romans 16:7
    ἀσπάσασθε Ἀνδρόνικον καὶ Ἰουνιᾶν τοὺς συγγενεῖς μου καὶ συναιχμαλώτους μου, οἵτινες εἰσιν ἐπίσημοι ἐν τοῖς ἀποστόλοις, οἳ καὶ πρὸ ἐμοῦ γέγοναν ἐν Χριστῷ.

    Here is a link to the Greek of Romans 16:7, complete with Strong's references.

    Now, the specific phrase "They are outstanding amongst the apostles":
    οἵτινες
    εἰσιν
    &#7952;&#960;&#943;&#963;&#951;&#956;&#959;&#953; <-- special attention
    &#7952;&#957; <-- special attention
    &#964;&#959;&#8150;&#962;
    &#7936;&#960;&#959;&#963;&#964;&#972;&#955;&#959;&#953;&#962;

    I noted the words rendered "outstanding among" because these serve as the crux of the controversy. As can be seen, the rest of the phrase is unambiguous and reads essentially as the NIV renders it.

    First, &#7952;&#960;&#943;&#963;&#951;&#956;&#959;&#953;, the word rendered "outstanding": referring to the link presented here, the obvious meaning of the word is not qualitative as 'outstanding' may be understood to mean, but rather 'of note' or 'notable'.

    Second, and perhaps more confusing, is &#7952;&#957;. As seen from the link, this is an inclusive preposition, essentially equivalent to 'in' or 'among'. This may imply that Junia is 'among' the apostles, but let's look at a few other uses of &#7952;&#957; for clarification.

    (Examples from GNT Concordance)

    Matthew 2:1 &#932;&#959;&#8166; &#948;&#8050; &#7992;&#951;&#963;&#959;&#8166; &#947;&#949;&#957;&#957;&#951;&#952;&#941;&#957;&#964;&#959;&#962; &#7952;&#957; &#914;&#951;&#952;&#955;&#941;&#949;&#956; &#964;&#8134;&#962; &#7992;&#959;&#965;&#948;&#945;&#943;&#945;&#962; &#7952;&#957; &#7969;&#956;&#941;&#961;&#945;&#953;&#962; &#7977;&#961;&#8180;&#948;&#959;&#965; &#964;&#959;&#8166; &#946;&#945;&#963;&#953;&#955;&#941;&#969;&#962;, &#7984;&#948;&#959;&#8058; &#956;&#940;&#947;&#959;&#953; &#7936;&#960;&#8056; &#7936;&#957;&#945;&#964;&#959;&#955;&#8182;&#957; &#960;&#945;&#961;&#949;&#947;&#941;&#957;&#959;&#957;&#964;&#959; &#949;&#7984;&#962; &#7993;&#949;&#961;&#959;&#963;&#972;&#955;&#965;&#956;&#945;
    Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of King Herod, behold, wise men from the east came to Jerusalem, saying,

    Matthew 2:2 &#955;&#941;&#947;&#959;&#957;&#964;&#949;&#962;· &#960;&#959;&#8166; &#7952;&#963;&#964;&#953;&#957; &#8001; &#964;&#949;&#967;&#952;&#949;&#8054;&#962; &#946;&#945;&#963;&#953;&#955;&#949;&#8058;&#962; &#964;&#8182;&#957; &#7992;&#959;&#965;&#948;&#945;&#943;&#969;&#957;; &#949;&#7988;&#948;&#959;&#956;&#949;&#957; &#947;&#8048;&#961; &#945;&#8016;&#964;&#959;&#8166; &#964;&#8056;&#957; &#7936;&#963;&#964;&#941;&#961;&#945; &#7952;&#957; &#964;&#8135; &#7936;&#957;&#945;&#964;&#959;&#955;&#8135; &#954;&#945;&#8054; &#7972;&#955;&#952;&#959;&#956;&#949;&#957; &#960;&#961;&#959;&#963;&#954;&#965;&#957;&#8134;&#963;&#945;&#953; &#945;&#8016;&#964;&#8183;.
    "Where is he who is born King of the Jews? For we saw his star in the east, and have come to worship him."

    These examples are not exhaustive, but it at least allows us to divine that the inclusive preposition &#7952;&#957; modifies the noun directly after it. Thus, 'in' the apostles does not modify Junia and hence cannot be taken to mean that Junia was an apostle.

    I think this is enough to prove my point that Junia was not an apostle, using the Greek. This is a singular point among many in this debate, chosen for brevity. However, its hardly a matter of my personal interpretation. I've provided objective references and I ask that any opposing voice would do the same.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2011
  9. Tamara224

    Tamara224 Well-Known Member

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    Discrimination, definition:
    treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing belongs rather than on individual merit
     
  10. acropolis

    acropolis so rad

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    This thread is another good example of people's morality taking precedence over religious texts. As societies understanding of morality changes, so to must religions change in order to be allowed to exist within that society. In a similar way, the individual believer must find a way to reconcile what they understand to be moral with what their religious text says is correct. Gender inequality will become extinct just as slavery has.
     
  11. Brad2009

    Brad2009 Newbie

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    The flip side of that coin is that you don't have any special knowledge either. Yet, in this thread alone, we have seen several examples where Paul's explicit rationale for not permitting women to teach (namely because Eve was deceived first) is set aside in favor of the explanation that the instruction applied only to a specific church. However, that explanation is not found in the text.

    Thus, I must ask, who is truly claiming a special knowledge of the text?
     
  12. acropolis

    acropolis so rad

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    Someone can always claim personal divine revelation.
     
  13. Tamara224

    Tamara224 Well-Known Member

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    You know Koine Greek?

    I don't. So I'm not going to pretend like I do. When I research, I rely on Greek scholars and experts.

    :scratch: Um, in all those examples the preposition is giving us the location of the noun preceding it. Jesus was born in Bethlehem. Bethlehem wasn't born in Jesus. The star was in the east, the east wasn't in the star.

    I don't think you understand what "modifying" means. "The preposition modifies the noun directly after it" means that the preposition changes the case of the noun. En is always in the dative case, so the noun following it will always take the dative case. In English, this is how we determine when to use who or whom, we or us, I or me (a noun following a preposition is in the objective case).


    If "in" isn't talking about Andronicus and Junia, then what or whose position is it identifying? What or who is "in," and what are they in? The apostles are in/among outstanding? The apostles are in/among Andronicus and Junia? That kind of makes the sentence gibberish, doesn't it?

    Let's see what the scholars think the preposition means:

    Greek scholar, A.T. Robertson states that the phrase en tois apostoloisepisemoi en tois apostolois "naturally means that they are counted among the apostles in the general sense of Barnabas, James, the brother of Christ, Silas, and others. But it can mean simply that they were famous in the circle of the apostles in the technical sense."26 Moo also concludes that it is more natural to translate the phrase as "esteemed among the apostles" and not "esteemed by the apostles." He also states that earlier interpreters would argue against Paul meaning a woman because they had difficulty in "imagining that a woman could hold such authority in the early church.27 In this sense, such a translation would also represent the harder or more difficult one. J.B. Lightfoot agrees that the only natural way to translate episemoi en tois apostolois is "regarded as apostles."28 Cranfield states it is "virtually certain" that the phrase means "outstanding among the apostles." Walkers, commenting on Cranfield's remarks said, "this is the way the phrase was understood by all of the patristic writers and by most all modern commentators.29 Bauer provides the normal meaning of episemoi en tois apostolois as "outstanding among the apostles."30

    Aida Besancon Spencer, makes the grammatical point that "the Greek preposition en which is used here always has the idea of 'within.'"31 Greek text books point out that en followed by the dative normally means "in, on or among." For example, en tois is translated as "among those" (1 Cor 2:6), and en tois ethnesin as "among the Gentiles" (Acts 15:12, 1 Cor 5:1, Gal 2:2, Col 1:27, 1 Pet 2:12). Where en tois is followed by a plural noun referring to a group of people, the word en is translated as "among." F.F. Bruce adds that not only were they "well known to the apostles" but they were "notable members of the apostolic circle."32 Liddel-Scott defines the Greek word episemoi as "having a mark on" it.33 James A. Witmer, explains that episemoi, literally means "having a mark [sema] on them," therefore they are "illustrious, notable, or outstanding" among the apostles.34 These defintions seem to describe them as one who "bears the mark" of an apostle.

    As far as I can tell, there are two views as to what the phrase means: 1) Junia was an outstanding/notable apostle or 2) Junia was known to the apostles.

    I haven't seen any scholarly source that suggests that &#7952;&#957; is not referring to Andronicus and Junia.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2011
  14. Brad2009

    Brad2009 Newbie

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    Right... that's what I'm doing. Strong's is my default reference to the Greek. Other references are welcome.

    You're right. However, the sentence certainly doesn't state that Jesus was Bethlehem. It modifies the verb "was born". The paralell would be modifying the verb 'noted' or phrase 'of note'

    See above. Reading it as 'they (A&J) are of note among the apostles' does not equate A&J with the apostles. Rather, the sentence w/o the preposition would read 'they are of note'. The prepositional phrase states by whom they are noted. Similar to 'Jesus was born' or 'Jesus was born in Bethlehem'.

    Nice references... thank you, I really appreciate that. However, there is a clash in their views as you acknowledge. I do think that a concordance search for both the disputed words would be of more value than expert opinions. Expert opinions which include the rationale of the expert in reaching their conclusion would be of much more weight as well.
     
  15. Tamara224

    Tamara224 Well-Known Member

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    Actually, it is found in the text:

    1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the command of God our Savior and of Christ Jesus our hope,
    2 To Timothy my true son in the faith:
    Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.
    3 As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain people not to teach false doctrines any longer 4 or to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. Such things promote controversial speculations rather than advancing God’s work—which is by faith.
    Paul conveniently opened his letter to Timothy with an explanation that he was writing a letter to Timothy and why he had left Timothy in Ephesus which just so happened to be that he needed Timothy to "command certain people" (that would be specific people in Ephesus) to stop teaching false doctrine. And that false doctrine just so happened to be concerning "myths and endless genealogies."

    There's really no good reason to believe that Paul wasn't addressing a specific church with specific problems.
     
  16. Brad2009

    Brad2009 Newbie

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    Dang. There is only the one reference to &#7952;&#960;&#943;&#963;&#951;&#956;&#959;&#953; in the NT.
     
  17. Tamara224

    Tamara224 Well-Known Member

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    Please see my edit about what "modifying" means.

    Even so, saying that "Junia was outstanding in the apostles" still means she's an apostle. In means in. In this case "within". If Junia is in the apostles it means she's in that group, which means she is one of that group.


    :doh:You can't just take the word out of the sentence. "A&J are of note the apostles" doesn't make any sense either. You're essentially trying to replace the preposition with a different one. It doesn't say they were of note by the apostles. "They were of note in the apostles" still means they were apostles.

    Their rationale is obvious. "In" means "in." None of them needed to explain that because it's a given.
     
  18. Tamara224

    Tamara224 Well-Known Member

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    Brad, do you read Greek? I don't, as I've already said. Please use transliterations. What word is that? Authentein?

    Yes, there is only one reference to that word. And it's a word that has been much disputed.

    Here are some articles discussing it: The Meaning of Authentein

    That Pesky Verb: Authentein (Authority) | Bill Bolin
     
  19. Brad2009

    Brad2009 Newbie

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    You must admit that Paul does not state that there was some specific problem with women talking too much in church or being overwhelmed at being allowed into the temple. The specific problems in Ephesus are enumerated in your reference, but the extrapolation that it was 'women being chatterboxes in Ephesus' that prompts his later statement is nowhere to be found.

    Yet, Paul gives an explicit rationale that doesn't appear to refer to specifically Ephesian problems at all:

    1 Timothy 2:11-14
    11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.

    I see absolutely no reason to set aside an explicitly given rationale for an extrapolated one.
     
  20. Brad2009

    Brad2009 Newbie

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    If you like, I will; makes no difference to me. I don't read Greek. Transliteration = episémos
     
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