Female ordination

[Albion]

Or, perhaps more precisely, arguing that those offices were not yet so neatly defined in the first - say, century and a half or so - as they later became, so it is anachronistic to insist on conformity to later definitions in that early period.

Yes, that is one contention, but we do know what the early church thought and did when it comes to this issue; it is not something that was left unsettled until later.

 

[Andrewn]

we do know what the early church thought and did when it comes to this issue;

How did they think about female presbyters?

 

[Albion]

How did they think about female presbyters?

The New Testament gives the qualifications for being made a deacon or bishop--all male. In addition, there is not a single women referred to in the NT as having been what we call "ordained"--as a minister, pastor, or so.

There are women in other important positions of responsibility--leadership positions we might say-- but not the ones you inquired about. This is not an issue in Anglican circles.

We are also told in the NT that we are all given our own roles to play in Christs church but they are not all the same ones.

You may remember that the comparison was made to the parts of the body. They are not all the same but they all work together for the viability of the body, Christs church in this case. Romans 12:4-5, 1 Corinthians 12:11-12

Bear in mind also that this is the Anglican forum and the Anglican churches of the world are divided on the issue. Those which have ordained women generally point to Bible passages that speak of God loving all of us equally and/or contend that the social norms of the Romans and Hebrews made it necessary, at that time, for the new church to adhere to traditional norms, but that we are under no such obligation.

 

[Paidiske]

And I would have to point out that the position Albion puts forward is one take on things, with which we wouldn't all agree. He says the NT doesn't refer to any ordained women, but to do that, he has to - at the very least - explain Phoebe away as a "deaconess," even though the text literally says "deacon." Paul describes her using the very same word Justin Martyr uses for the person who presides over worship. Albion's argument also has to deny that both Scripture and tradition know Junia as an apostle.

Accepting the ordination of women isn't just a contemporary argument about equality; there is evidence - often now obscured, but still there - that this was the practice of the very earliest church.

 

[Andrewn]

The New Testament gives the qualifications for being made a deacon or bishop--all male.

My question was limited to a presbyter / priest / pastor because I have no doubt in my mind that women can be ordained as deacon / minister / servant as in:

1Ti 3:11 In the same way women must be worthy of respect, not slanderers, temperate, faithful in everything.

There is no way, IMHO, that this verse refers to Deacons' wives when no qualifications were given for Presbyters' wives.

Ro 16:1 I commend to you our sister Phoebe, who is a deacon of the church in Cenchrea. 2 Welcome her in the Lord in a manner that is worthy of saints, and assist her in whatever way she may need your help, for she has certainly been a helper for many people, including me.

It is interesting the word translated "helper" actually means "a woman set over others."

 

[Andrewn]

Accepting the ordination of women isn't just a contemporary argument about equality; there is evidence - often now obscured, but still there - that this was the practice of the very earliest church.

I have no doubt in my mind that women were ordained deacons in the early church. But I see no evidence they were ordained presbyters. If you agree with this conclusion then the only question is: What are the functions of deacons vs presbyters?

 

[Paidiske]

I have no doubt in my mind that women were ordained deacons in the early church. But I see no evidence they were ordained presbyters. If you agree with this conclusion then the only question is: What are the functions of deacons vs presbyters?

And the answer to that has varied over time. Today in Anglican practice there is no absolute difference in function between a deacon and a properly authorised lay person, and yet we still ordain people to a distinctive diaconate; which suggests to me that we cannot boil ordination down to a question of functions.

 

[Andrewn]

Today in Anglican practice there is no absolute difference in function between a deacon and a properly authorised lay person, and yet we still ordain people to a distinctive diaconate; which suggests to me that we cannot boil ordination down to a question of functions.

I'm not sure what you mean. The 7 Greeks ordained in Acts 6 are generally considered to be the original deacons and their job was social service.

 

[Paidiske]

I'm not sure what you mean. The 7 Greeks ordained in Acts 6 are generally considered to be the original deacons and their job was social service.

What I mean is this; often we argue about different ordained roles in terms of their different functions. ("Priests can absolve, bless, consecrate; deacons can't" type of thing). But I'd argue that trying to understand what a priest is, or what it means to be a priest, simply by looking at a list of exclusively priestly functions is a distortion at best.

Let me put it this way; in a week in which I might work 50 hours or so, I might spend perhaps 3 of those hours exercising exclusively priestly "functions," but that doesn't mean the other 47 hours I'm not being a priest or fulfilling the particular role of vicar of this parish. Ordained ministry is as much about a set of relationships and a way of life as it is about the minutiae of how your days are filled.

 

[Andrewn]

Ordained ministry is as much about a set of relationships and a way of life as it is about the minutiae of how your days are filled.

Very true. There are all kinds of roles in a church. Still the question is what's the difference between a presbyter and a deacon, on a practical level beside the sacrament issue?

 

[Albion]

My question was limited to a presbyter / priest / pastor because I have no doubt in my mind that women can be ordained as deacon / minister / servant as in:

1Ti 3:11 In the same way women must be worthy of respect, not slanderers, temperate, faithful in everything.

There is no way, IMHO, that this verse refers to Deacons' wives when no qualifications were given for Presbyters' wives.

Ro 16:1 I commend to you our sister Phoebe, who is a deacon of the church in Cenchrea. 2 Welcome her in the Lord in a manner that is worthy of saints, and assist her in whatever way she may need your help, for she has certainly been a helper for many people, including me.

It is interesting the word translated "helper" actually means "a woman set over others."

Does someone have an issue with deacons wives?? I saw nothing in your inquiry about that and I said nothing about it in my responses.

As for Phoebe, she was what is called a deaconess, not a deacon. Deaconesses are unordained and so are not part of the issue you brought to us.

 

[Paidiske]

Very true. There are all kinds of roles in a church. Still the question is what's the difference between a presbyter and a deacon, on a practical level beside the sacrament issue?

For that, I'd point you towards the exhortations given in the ordination service for deacons and for priests. Do you have access to a prayer book that includes those? If not I can type them out, but it'd be easier if I didn't have to.

In practical terms, the biggest difference that I see is that deacons tend (this is not an absolute rule, but would be generally true nonetheless) to work in settings where they are not "in charge." They work in chaplaincy settings, in social welfare organisations, or have assistant roles in parishes. Anglican practice tends to reserve leading communities of the faithful to priests. Very few deacons would need to engage in the kind of work priests-in-charge do in terms of vision, strategy, mission directions and so forth.

Now that's not to say there aren't priests in assistant roles too, but our custom tends to reserve that kind of parish leadership role to priests.

 

[Andrewn]

For that, I'd point you towards the exhortations given in the ordination service for deacons and for priests. Do you have access to a prayer book that includes those? If not I can type them out, but it'd be easier if I didn't have to.

Unfortunately, I don't have access to a prayer book.

In practical terms, the biggest difference that I see is that deacons tend (this is not an absolute rule, but would be generally true nonetheless) to work in settings where they are not "in charge." They work in chaplaincy settings, in social welfare organisations, or have assistant roles in parishes. Anglican practice tends to reserve leading communities of the faithful to priests. Very few deacons would need to engage in the kind of work priests-in-charge do in terms of vision, strategy, mission directions and so forth. Now that's not to say there aren't priests in assistant roles too,

This seems like an excellent characterization of the different roles. And perhaps this "leading" role is intended in the NT to be reserved to males. You're likely more aware than me of the arguments for and against.

 

[Andrewn]

Does someone have an issue with deacons wives?? I saw nothing in your inquiry about that and I said nothing about it in my responses.

Many Bible translations render "women" in this verse into "wives." I was stating my opinion against that kind of understanding.

As for Phoebe, she was what is called a deaconess, not a deacon. Deaconesses are unordained and so are not part of the issue you brought to us.

How can you tell from the verse that Phoebe was unordained?

 

[bekkilyn]

Very true. There are all kinds of roles in a church. Still the question is what's the difference between a presbyter and a deacon, on a practical level beside the sacrament issue?

It's going to be different depending on the denomination. For example, in the United Methodist Church, we have ordained Deacons who are both male and female and they carry out all sorts of ministries that act as a bridge between the church and the outside world. It may or may not actually be a social services ministry. We also have Deaconesses/Home Missioners (male version of the Deaconess) who are *not* ordained, but are lay vocations where they commit themselves to some ministry as their way of life. We don't have presbyters at all, and if we did, it would probably look very different than the presbyters of other denominations.

The thing is, the roles in churches today, both ordained and otherwise, are VERY different than the roles in the 1st century church even if some of the same names are used. There really is no comparison, so regardless of which genders may or may not have been ordained for various things back then, using a reason like, "There were no Chinese in the 1st century church, therefore Chinese cannot be ordained", etc. is not a valid reason for excluding anyone because most of what we have now wasn't in the 1st century church either.

The big reason why some people say that women can't be ordained is simply because they personally don't want women to be ordained. Simple as that, because there is no valid scriptural *consistent* reason for excluding anyone based on anything other than the question of whether or not God has called that person to a given ministry.

 

[bekkilyn]

For that, I'd point you towards the exhortations given in the ordination service for deacons and for priests. Do you have access to a prayer book that includes those? If not I can type them out, but it'd be easier if I didn't have to.

In practical terms, the biggest difference that I see is that deacons tend (this is not an absolute rule, but would be generally true nonetheless) to work in settings where they are not "in charge." They work in chaplaincy settings, in social welfare organisations, or have assistant roles in parishes. Anglican practice tends to reserve leading communities of the faithful to priests. Very few deacons would need to engage in the kind of work priests-in-charge do in terms of vision, strategy, mission directions and so forth.

Now that's not to say there aren't priests in assistant roles too, but our custom tends to reserve that kind of parish leadership role to priests.

Our ordained Deacons are very different. (And they are ordained clergy, not lay.) While they *may* be working in a setting where they are not "in charge" they may also be working in settings where they are in charge or also even a licensed senior pastor (so they could be both a deacon *and* a local pastor). They also might run their own secular business as part of their ministry, or work within a secular corporation as part of their ministry, even being a CEO or some other executive function.

 

[Andrewn]

in the United Methodist Church, we have ordained Deacons who are both male and female and they carry out all sorts of ministries that act as a bridge between the church and the outside world. It may or may not actually be a social services ministry.

Excellent. This is probably not very different from Anglicans.

We don't have presbyters at all,

You do. You call them senior pastors.

"There were no Chinese in the 1st century church, therefore Chinese cannot be ordained", etc. is not a valid reason for excluding anyone because most of what we have now wasn't in the 1st century church either.

Not a very good example bec there were indeed women in 1st century church <g>.

The big reason why some people say that women can't be ordained is simply because they personally don't want women to be ordained.

I have no doubt that women can be ordained as deacons. I'm just not sure whether they should be ordained as senior pastors. This is not to reduce the status of women. After all a woman was called "mother of God." And a woman was called "apostle to the apostles." For some reason, a lot of people are not comfortable with the idea. And those people are both women and men.

 

[Paidiske]

Unfortunately, I don't have access to a prayer book.

Okay, so here are the exhortations as used in A Prayer Book For Australia. These are the exhortations that were read at my ordinations.

For deacons:

"Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ lived and died as the servant of God.
All who follow him are called to serve God in the world, setting forth Christ's kingdom through the power of the Spirit.

Christ has called you to the office of deacon.
You are to be an ambassador of Christ,
serving God as you serve others in Jesus' name.
Proclaim the good news of God's love, so that many may be moved to faith and repentance, and hearts be opened to do justice, love mercy, and walk humbly in the presence of God.
Let the transforming love of Jesus be known to all among whom you live and work.
Strengthen the faithful, teach the young, search out the careless and indifferent.
Encourage the members of Christ's body by word and example, ministering among the sick, the needy and all who are oppressed or in trouble.

Together with your bishop, priest and people, you are to take your place in public worship, assist in the administration of the sacraments, and play your part in the life and councils of the Church.
You are to preach the word of God in the place to which you are licensed,
and to pray and work for peace and justice in the world.

As a deacon, you are to model your life according to the word of God.
Study the Scriptures, reflecting with God's people upon their meaning,
that all may be equipped to live out God's truth in the world.
Put away all that does not make for holiness of life.
Be faithful in prayer, that you may have strength to run the race that is set before you..."

And for priests:

"Our Lord Jesus Christ summons us all to obedience and discipleship.
In baptism we are called to be a royal priesthood, a people belonging to God, to make Christ known in all the world.
Now you are responding to the call of God and of the Church to live and work as a priest, a pastor and teacher, for God's glory and the strengthening of God's people.

You know the responsibility and significance of this office.

I now exhort you, in the name of Christ, to take up your calling with joy and dedication.
As the Lord's messenger, proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Seek the lost, announce God's justice, warn and correct those in error.

You are to encourage and build up the body of Christ, preaching the word of God, leading God's people in prayer, declaring God's forgiveness and blessing, and faithfully ministering the sacraments of God's grace with reverence and care.

Together with your bishop and other ministers,
you are to take your part in the life and councils of the Church.

Be a pastor after the pattern of Christ the great Shepherd, who laid down his life for the sheep.
Be a teacher taught by the Lord in wisdom and holiness.
Lead the people of God as a servant of Christ.
Love and serve the people with whom you work, caring alike for young and old, rich and poor, weak and strong.

Never forget how great a treasure is placed in your care: the Church you must serve is Christ's spouse and body, purchased at the cost of his own life.
Remember that you will be called to give account before Jesus Christ: if it should come about that the Church, or any of its members, is hurt or hindered as a result of your negligence, you know the greatness of the fault and the judgement that will follow. Therefore apply yourself with diligence and care, and fashion your life and ministry in accordance with Christ's example.

As you depend on the Holy Spirit and the grace of God,
put away all that does not make for holiness of life.
Clothe yourself with humility; be constant in prayer.
Study the Scriptures wholeheartedly, reflecting with God's people upon their meaning, so that your ministry and life may be shaped by Christ.
We have every confidence that you have already pondered these things deeply..."

This seems like an excellent characterization of the different roles. And perhaps this "leading" role is intended in the NT to be reserved to males. You're likely more aware than me of the arguments for and against.

I think in the time that the NT was still being written, a) church structures were still developing (no such thing as a parish, for a start!), and b) most Christians expected the Lord back within their lifetime. I don't think they were even asking the same sorts of questions we are about role, function, leadership and so on.

I have no doubt that women can be ordained as deacons. I'm just not sure whether they should be ordained as senior pastors. This is not to reduce the status of women. After all a woman was called "mother of God." And a woman was called "apostle to the apostles." For some reason, a lot of people are not comfortable with the idea. And those people are both women and men.

To deliberately shut women out of leadership roles does reduce our status and dignity, though.

 

[Andrewn]

These are the exhortations that were read at my ordinations.

These are beautiful exhortations.

To deliberately shut women out of leadership roles does reduce our status and dignity, though.

The church I attended this morning had a woman pastor. The service and sermon were quite enjoyable and anointed. I need to study this subject in more detail.

 

[bekkilyn]

Excellent. This is probably not very different from Anglicans.


You do. You call them senior pastors.

It's actually quite different from Anglicans when it comes to Deacons. We also don't have Priests in the UMC. We do have a few things in common with Anglicans though since Methodism started as a revival movement within the Anglican church, but our church structure is very different.

We don't have anyone with the specific title of Presbyters. We also have Elders who may or may not be in a position of senior pastor, and we also have non-ordained lay ministers as senior pastors. Lay preachers were a big part of Methodism. Go to another denomination, and it will be different.

Not a very good example bec there were indeed women in 1st century church <g>.

How many Chinese women were there, and how many of them were ordained? How many Chinese men were ordained in the first century church? How many ordained Chinese ministers are serving in the 1st century church today, assuming there have been no changes whatsoever to church structure since that time?

I have no doubt that women can be ordained as deacons. I'm just not sure whether they should be ordained as senior pastors. This is not to reduce the status of women. After all a woman was called "mother of God." And a woman was called "apostle to the apostles." For some reason, a lot of people are not comfortable with the idea. And those people are both women and men.

The senior pastor role of the 1st century church no longer exists today, so no one...male, female, or Chinese...can be ordained into it even if they wanted to.

In the United Methodist church, a senior pastor doesn't require ordination. Both ordained or licensed clergy and lay ministers can function as senior pastors. In some cases, they don't even need to be Methodist.

Also, God never made any promises that answering his call would make either ourselves or other people comfortable. Quite the opposite in many actual cases.