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Fell out of the Orthodox Church

0mega

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I was baptized while traveling abroad in Eastern Europe, but had a very short catechism and was not psychologically mature to become Orthodox. When I returned back to my home country I was not able to hold on to the faith and converted to Islam (because of my weak spot for Sufism). But this was also a premature decision, so I'm now hovering between worlds and am spiritually confused. One side of my family is also from a Muslim culture, so I have always been psychologically stuck between these religions. Now I'm missing Orthodoxy and feel like I have been unfaithful to the church I fell in love with. I'm quite mentally unstable and oscillate between identities, lacking a stable center of Self.

Would appreciate your thoughts and advice..
 

0mega

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Fix that.
You're right, thanks. It's sort of inevitable if you grow up between two cultures and religions.. I have a hard time committing to anything unfortunately. Lots of internal division and psychological disintegration. Humans are adapted to belong to a specific culture and it's hard to navigate when you have no center.
 
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Josheb

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I was baptized while traveling abroad in Eastern Europe, but had a very short catechism and was not psychologically mature to become Orthodox. When I returned back to my home country I was not able to hold on to the faith and converted to Islam (because of my weak spot for Sufism). But this was also a premature decision, so I'm now hovering between worlds and am spiritually confused. One side of my family is also from a Muslim culture, so I have always been psychologically stuck between these religions. Now I'm missing Orthodoxy and feel like I have been unfaithful to the church I fell in love with. I'm quite mentally unstable and oscillate between identities, lacking a stable center of Self.

Would appreciate your thoughts and advice..
I will respectfully suggest to you the problem is first couching the matter in terms of your identity and then couching it in psychology.

I, therefore, highly recommend you give Francis Schaeffer's trilogy a read (if you have not already done so).

I make that recommendation because we live in a time when psychology is thought to define everything. His has progressed (or decayed, depending on one's point of view) through the centuries to gradually NOT define everything through a theocentric worldview. Regardless of one's religious orientation, everyone once thought in terms of God as the center of the universe. The theocentric worldview gradually became secularized and, due to the works of people like Darwin, Marx, Freud, Nietzsche, Hegel, Darby, Schweitzer, and Sartre, psychology gradually took the place of god-based religions, especially in the west. God was once deemed the center of the universe. Then Man became the center of the universe and now (since the mind is the center of the man) the mind has become the center of the universe. Then came postmodernism, and now we live in a post-postmodern world where everything and anything goes, there are no standards by which anything can be measured, and truth is relative well beyond the postmodernist point of view.

That applies to spirituality, too.


And it is the Spirit with which I will suggest you need to concern yourself, not (merely)psychology and identity (which has developed a meaning in recent years it never previously held).


Now, having said that..... you may feel some confusion about that matter of spirituality and the Spirit because you've experimented with some religious diversity. That's completely okay from one point of view because there is a certain knowledge and wisdom to be gained from diversity of thought and experience, you'll have some means of comparative measure, you'll better understand both orthodoxy and sin, and you may well gain a better grounding when you find the truth.

I once experimented with religious diversity, too. I was raised in a family where my mom was Roman Catholic, and my dad was Baptist. As a middle ground they took the kids to Episcopal churches, and I got all my bona fides (baptism, confirmation, etc.) in the Episcopal Church. When I got out of high school I left home and began exploring other faiths. I have worshipped in every version of religion on which I could lay my hands. I have had many sit-on-the-porch or sharing-cups-of-tea conversations with rabbis, imams, monks, and ministers. I did that for years. I've read the Tanakh, the Bible (from beginning to end in at least six different English translations, including the Jehovah Witness' NWT version). I've red the Book of Mormon, the Gita, the sutras, the book of the dead, and all the "great books" of religious faith. For a time, I found a landing place in Buddhism and was a practicing Buddhist for several years. In my mid-twenties I had a conversion experience in which I became a Christian but because I lacked structured guidance, instruction, and accountability I found myself a member of a "Christian" cult. I was there a year before I realized what they were teaching was not what the Bible says. So, I left and found a congregation that seemed to teach what I was reading in the Bible.

One of the things I recommend you asking yourself and asking God is, "Where did I find myself experiencing a change?" I say that even though I am not a big fan of religious experientialism. It leads to many problems, including the misguided belief religious/spiritual truth can be measured by anecdotal experience. Most religions are "creedal," which is to say the religious belief is learned through its creeds, or doctrinal statements. Christianity's Nicene Creed, Islam's Five Pillars and Buddhism's Four Noble Truths would be examples of this. Learn what a religion teaches but also remember truth should change our life. The day God rent the fabric of time and space and called me to believe is a day I cannot deny, nor can I forget it. If you haven't had that then you might spend less time in internet forums and more time on your knees asking God for guidance and change.


Lastly, I say all this as a psychologist (retired). I know a lot about human psychology. I've spent my entire adult life working in the field professionally and in lay capacity in various faith communities. I also know psychology does not have the answers. We've got all the questions, but comparatively few answers. As a Christian, I direct you to the Bible and no other religious text....... but I also believe 1) God will guide you if you ask sincerely, 2) you have liberty to choose as you like. I have degrees in social psychology, sociology, and counseling psychology. In my early years as an undergraduate I also studied philosophy, business, and computer science. Before that was a carpenter. Diversity of thought and experience can be a good thing. If a God exists, then He can and will use everything you've experienced for His purpose(s). That's a logical necessity.

Confusion is NOT His thing.

Therefore, I will respectfully suggest the current sensations of confusion, vacillation, disorientation, and instability is all you need to know to realize 1) it didn't come from God and 2) it is to God is where you need to return. The Schaeffer book is not an easy read but it will give you an overview of history's drift away from theocentrism and provide an understanding for the intellectual integrity of religion in general and Christianity in particular. Excerpts from the book can be found HERE at Google Books. I think the book can also be found at Scribd, if you've got a subscription there. If you can find Appendix B, titled, "Faith" Versus Faith, from either "He is there and He is not silent" or the trilogy that may help a great deal.
 
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Sir Joseph

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I was baptized while traveling abroad in Eastern Europe, but had a very short catechism and was not psychologically mature to become Orthodox. When I returned back to my home country I was not able to hold on to the faith and converted to Islam (because of my weak spot for Sufism). But this was also a premature decision, so I'm now hovering between worlds and am spiritually confused. One side of my family is also from a Muslim culture, so I have always been psychologically stuck between these religions. Now I'm missing Orthodoxy and feel like I have been unfaithful to the church I fell in love with. I'm quite mentally unstable and oscillate between identities, lacking a stable center of Self.

Would appreciate your thoughts and advice..

I'm not qualified to assess your mental state and abilities Omega, but I can say that your spiritual path should be based upon truth, not feelings, church preferences, or family influence. Thank God I did not adopt my own family's atheist beliefs, nor the multitude of other false religions filling the world today.

To those committed to their family or a particular church, maintaining loyalty and relationships is generally more important than pursuing religious truth. You though seem to be more open than that, influenced somewhat by preferences and relationships, but wanting more so a proper spiritual path in life. If that be the case, I'd suggest that you study the apologetic foundations of each religion. Now while this could take hundreds of hours for the Christian faith, I have just two videos to recommend on the Islam faith - from extremely qualified sources: Jay Smith and David Wood. Their truthful insights might help steer you towards one path over the other.


 
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0mega

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I will respectfully suggest to you the problem is first couching the matter in terms of your identity and then couching it in psychology.
It's not irrelevant. If you're a white man from a Christian context, you might not be able to relate to someone who is mixed and has cultural Muslims on one side of the family and Christians on the other. My father gave me a Muslim name. When I became Orthodox I got a baptismal name which split my identity even more. Was I now supposed to disrespect the name that my father gave me and use my Christian name? Can an Orthodox Christian keep his Muslim name? These are no trivial matters to me. Most people are not mixed and do not have to reflect over such things.

I, therefore, highly recommend you give Francis Schaeffer's trilogy a read (if you have not already done so).
Thank you but I generally refrain from reading non Orthodox/Catholic authors as I disdain the Protestant reformation.

I make that recommendation because we live in a time when psychology is thought to define everything. His has progressed (or decayed, depending on one's point of view) through the centuries to gradually NOT define everything through a theocentric worldview. Regardless of one's religious orientation, everyone once thought in terms of God as the center of the universe. The theocentric worldview gradually became secularized and, due to the works of people like Darwin, Marx, Freud, Nietzsche, Hegel, Darby, Schweitzer, and Sartre, psychology gradually took the place of god-based religions, especially in the west. God was once deemed the center of the universe. Then Man became the center of the universe and now (since the mind is the center of the man) the mind has become the center of the universe. Then came postmodernism, and now we live in a post-postmodern world where everything and anything goes, there are no standards by which anything can be measured, and truth is relative well beyond the postmodernist point of view.

That applies to spirituality, too.
I agree, I came to Christianity from a similar philosophical angle and mistrust of modernity.
And it is the Spirit with which I will suggest you need to concern yourself, not (merely)psychology and identity (which has developed a meaning in recent years it never previously held).
Well, my worldview - which is very traditional and premodern - is holistic meaning taking into account the harmony of the whole human being including body, soul, mind and spirit.
Now, having said that..... you may feel some confusion about that matter of spirituality and the Spirit because you've experimented with some religious diversity. That's completely okay from one point of view because there is a certain knowledge and wisdom to be gained from diversity of thought and experience, you'll have some means of comparative measure, you'll better understand both orthodoxy and sin, and you may well gain a better grounding when you find the truth.

I once experimented with religious diversity, too. I was raised in a family where my mom was Roman Catholic, and my dad was Baptist. As a middle ground they took the kids to Episcopal churches, and I got all my bona fides (baptism, confirmation, etc.) in the Episcopal Church. When I got out of high school I left home and began exploring other faiths. I have worshipped in every version of religion on which I could lay my hands. I have had many sit-on-the-porch or sharing-cups-of-tea conversations with rabbis, imams, monks, and ministers. I did that for years. I've read the Tanakh, the Bible (from beginning to end in at least six different English translations, including the Jehovah Witness' NWT version). I've red the Book of Mormon, the Gita, the sutras, the book of the dead, and all the "great books" of religious faith. For a time, I found a landing place in Buddhism and was a practicing Buddhist for several years. In my mid-twenties I had a conversion experience in which I became a Christian but because I lacked structured guidance, instruction, and accountability I found myself a member of a "Christian" cult. I was there a year before I realized what they were teaching was not what the Bible says. So, I left and found a congregation that seemed to teach what I was reading in the Bible.

One of the things I recommend you asking yourself and asking God is, "Where did I find myself experiencing a change?" I say that even though I am not a big fan of religious experientialism. It leads to many problems, including the misguided belief religious/spiritual truth can be measured by anecdotal experience. Most religions are "creedal," which is to say the religious belief is learned through its creeds, or doctrinal statements. Christianity's Nicene Creed, Islam's Five Pillars and Buddhism's Four Noble Truths would be examples of this. Learn what a religion teaches but also remember truth should change our life. The day God rent the fabric of time and space and called me to believe is a day I cannot deny, nor can I forget it. If you haven't had that then you might spend less time in internet forums and more time on your knees asking God for guidance and change.


Lastly, I say all this as a psychologist (retired). I know a lot about human psychology. I've spent my entire adult life working in the field professionally and in lay capacity in various faith communities. I also know psychology does not have the answers. We've got all the questions, but comparatively few answers. As a Christian, I direct you to the Bible and no other religious text....... but I also believe 1) God will guide you if you ask sincerely, 2) you have liberty to choose as you like. I have degrees in social psychology, sociology, and counseling psychology. In my early years as an undergraduate I also studied philosophy, business, and computer science. Before that was a carpenter. Diversity of thought and experience can be a good thing. If a God exists, then He can and will use everything you've experienced for His purpose(s). That's a logical necessity.

Confusion is NOT His thing.
Lot's of good stuff here. Appreciated.
 
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0mega

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I'm not qualified to assess your mental state and abilities Omega, but I can say that your spiritual path should be based upon truth, not feelings, church preferences, or family influence. Thank God I did not adopt my own family's atheist beliefs, nor the multitude of other false religions filling the world today.

To those committed to their family or a particular church, maintaining loyalty and relationships is generally more important than pursuing religious truth. You though seem to be more open than that, influenced somewhat by preferences and relationships, but wanting more so a proper spiritual path in life. If that be the case, I'd suggest that you study the apologetic foundations of each religion. Now while this could take hundreds of hours for the Christian faith, I have just two videos to recommend on the Islam faith - from extremely qualified sources: Jay Smith and David Wood. Their truthful insights might help steer you towards one path over the other.


I'm not like that.. I'm not the type who is convinced by theological debates or someone who views religion solely in propositional terms. I am a classical theist meaning I see metaphysical correspondence between Islam, Catholicism and even Hinduism with regards to the concept of God. Choosing a religion is a very intimate thing for me that cannot be reduced to mere intellectual belief, which is why I chose Orthodoxy which is a very embodied form of faith.
 
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Hey, I may not be the best person to talk to about Orthodoxy since I'm still a catechumen, but I'd encourage you to make a thread in the Orthodox inquirers' forum, where there are a couple of priests and several people who have been Orthodox for many years: St. Basil the Great's Hall

As for the little help I can give, I looked into Islam during my inquiry phase where I left Protestantism. Muslims, from what I've seen, have no evidence for their claimed Jewish corruption of the Old Testament, no evidence for their claimed Christian corruption of the New Testament, no argument for the authenticity of their own Koran given that the caliph Uthman tried to have all variants of it other than his approved version destroyed (and failed - so much for their claimed lack of textual variants), and their arguments against the divinity of Christ and the unity of the Trinity are absurdly simplistic. I have yet to see a Muslim apologist who even claims to understand the distinction between person and substance, or between person, nature, and will; they have a lot of "how can three mean one?!" and not a lot of substantive engagement even with pre-islamic Christian theology.

You're right that Christianity can't be reduced to intellectual belief. I struggled with that in coming to Orthodoxy, since I was reading and listening to a lot of apologetics, which necessarily consists of rational arguments. Ultimately, the decision for me was a combination of intellectual beliefs and experiential learning through going to Orthodox churches.
 
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Josheb

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Was I now supposed to disrespect the name that my father gave me and use my Christian name?
No
Can an Orthodox Christian keep his Muslim name?
Yes
These are no trivial matters to me. Most people are not mixed and do not have to reflect over such things.
Do not throw a pity party and expect others to attend.
Thank you but I generally refrain from reading non Orthodox/Catholic authors as I disdain the Protestant reformation.
You do understand this is an internet forum overwhelmingly populated with Protestants, yes? You do understand the schism that separated the Orthodox sects from the Catholic sects was a reformation, yes? Do you understand the seeds of both sectarianism and reform are stated to exist in the letter to the Corinthians.

1 Corinthians 3:1-9
And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ. I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able, for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men? For when one says, "I am of Paul," and another, "I am of Apollos," are you not mere men? What then is Apollos? And what is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, even as the Lord gave opportunity to each one. I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth. So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth. Now he who plants and he who waters are one; but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor. For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.


The Church, those called out of the world by God into His service, has always been reforming. I recently had a conversation with an Orthodox cleric in which he readily acknowledged the requirement of celibacy is wholly inconsistent with the cultural mandate (Gen. 1:28) and the precedent of the married Peter. The requirement was not an official requirement until the 800s!!! There are scores of places like this in RCCism, Orthodoxy, and Protestantism.
I agree, I came to Christianity from a similar philosophical angle and mistrust of modernity.
Then act accordingly and measure everything you do by rightly rendered scripture, not extra-canonical man-made denominational doctrine. Wherever doctrines reconcile with scripture follow them. Where they do not, discard them. Psychology, btw, is a set of extra-canonical, man-made doctrines ;).
Well, my worldview - which is very traditional and premodern - is holistic meaning taking into account the harmony of the whole human being including body, soul, mind and spirit.
Psychologizing your experience contradicts what you've just posted. It's impossible to be "traditional, " and "premodern" and couch your current circumstances in being "psychologically stuck."

Let me inform "stuckness." The clinical term for "stuck" is called ambivalence. Ambivalence is nothing more than two or more competing thoughts, two or more competing emotions, two or more competing values. The first step in resolving ambivalence is acceptance. Accept the fact you have two or more competing sets of thoughts, emotions, values, hopes, and/or goals. Take a deep breath and accept that fact. Take fifteen minutes worth of slow, deep breaths and befriend reality. Ambivalence is a normal, natural, human part of life. Once accepted, then give yourself room for change. If there's no allowance for change then you will stay exactly where you are at in this dilemma and all the angst it brings. Freud would have said you must like this, else you'd have resolved it long ago. I'm not Freudian so I reject that premise. The ambivalence is experienced as a healthy part of your growth and development....... once the internal competition is resolved. The only question is will you do so in Christ, or not. No one here is trying to force Christianity on a non-Christian, but if Jesus is who he says he is then those are the only two options anyone has.

You can keep the name your father gave you. You can change your name, too. My daughter did. Broke my heart a little but it did not stop me from loving her or wanting the best for her. Ambivalence cannot be escaped, and when you're done with this version there will be another in the due course of time. You might consider the premise it's how you frame the matter that contributes to feeling stuck. I'd recommend going to speak to your father (which I assume you've already done, or haven't done because you fear doing so) AND go talk to a cleric of your choice, AND you talk to at least three men (one of your age, one of your father's age, and one whose a Christian) whose views you respect and talk it through with them. Before you do so consider how you word the problem because what you've posted is part of the problem to be solved. The biases will keep you bound (confirmation biases do that).
Lot's of good stuff here. Appreciated.
Thank you. I have my moments ;).
 
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0mega

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Do not throw a pity party and expect others to attend.

Is that how I come across to you?

You do understand this is an internet forum overwhelmingly populated with Protestants, yes? You do understand the schism that separated the Orthodox sects from the Catholic sects was a reformation, yes? Do you understand the seeds of both sectarianism and reform are stated to exist in the letter to the Corinthians.

Yeah, should've posted in the Orthodox forum as I don't expect Protestants to understand me. Perhaps the moderators can help move the thread..

The Church, those called out of the world by God into His service, has always been reforming. I recently had a conversation with an Orthodox cleric in which he readily acknowledged the requirement of celibacy is wholly inconsistent with the cultural mandate (Gen. 1:28) and the precedent of the married Peter. The requirement was not an official requirement until the 800s!!! There are scores of places like this in RCCism, Orthodoxy, and Protestantism.

I'm not really interested in your apologetics, but yeah, I concur. I like that Orthodox priests marry, and I also like Islam's positive affirmation of sexuality within the realm of the sacred.

Then act accordingly and measure everything you do by rightly rendered scripture, not extra-canonical man-made denominational doctrine. Wherever doctrines reconcile with scripture follow them. Where they do not, discard them. Psychology, btw, is a set of extra-canonical, man-made doctrines ;).

I think you overestimate the degree to which I psychologize. I see a place for the psyche as long as it is subordinated to the spirit. Otherwise you end up with psychologizing what is metaphysical. I just don't disregard the body and psyche the same way purely rationalistic fideists do.

Psychologizing your experience contradicts what you've just posted. It's impossible to be "traditional, " and "premodern" and couch your current circumstances in being "psychologically stuck."

No, I can acknowledge the supremacy of the Spirit while still admitting I'm stuck in psychology. I'm just saying I haven't fixed and harmonized that part within myself.

Let me inform "stuckness." The clinical term for "stuck" is called ambivalence. Ambivalence is nothing more than two or more competing thoughts, two or more competing emotions, two or more competing values. The first step in resolving ambivalence is acceptance. Accept the fact you have two or more competing sets of thoughts, emotions, values, hopes, and/or goals. Take a deep breath and accept that fact. Take fifteen minutes worth of slow, deep breaths and befriend reality. Ambivalence is a normal, natural, human part of life. Once accepted, then give yourself room for change. If there's no allowance for change then you will stay exactly where you are at in this dilemma and all the angst it brings. Freud would have said you must like this, else you'd have resolved it long ago. I'm not Freudian so I reject that premise. The ambivalence is experienced as a healthy part of your growth and development....... once the internal competition is resolved. The only question is will you do so in Christ, or not. No one here is trying to force Christianity on a non-Christian, but if Jesus is who he says he is then those are the only two options anyone has.

Very useful, thanks. I think you'd be a good priest. If Jesus is who he says he is, then that's just the way it is. I don't place great import in individual belief - I think God looks at your heart first and foremost. I still hold Jesus as the supreme spiritual Master even after going to Islam (as Islam doesn't reject his teachings).

You can keep the name your father gave you. You can change your name, too. My daughter did. Broke my heart a little but it did not stop me from loving her or wanting the best for her.

It broke your heart, it's exactly what I mean. She made an indivualistic decision going against her father which is a spiritual sin. Names are no trivial matter and carry metaphysical import for me.

Ambivalence cannot be escaped, and when you're done with this version there will be another in the due course of time. You might consider the premise it's how you frame the matter that contributes to feeling stuck. I'd recommend going to speak to your father (which I assume you've already done, or haven't done because you fear doing so) AND go talk to a cleric of your choice, AND you talk to at least three men (one of your age, one of your father's age, and one whose a Christian) whose views you respect and talk it through with them. Before you do so consider how you word the problem because what you've posted is part of the problem to be solved. The biases will keep you bound (confirmation biases do that).
Thank you!
 
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0mega

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Hey, I may not be the best person to talk to about Orthodoxy since I'm still a catechumen, but I'd encourage you to make a thread in the Orthodox inquirers' forum, where there are a couple of priests and several people who have been Orthodox for many years: St. Basil the Great's Hall

Hey, make sure you don't make the same mistake as me and become baptized too quickly. Take your time with the catechism and make sure you grow into a parish so that you are mentally prepared when you become Orthodox.

I hope my thread is moved to the Orthodox forum..

As for the little help I can give, I looked into Islam during my inquiry phase where I left Protestantism.

Well done.

Muslims, from what I've seen, have no evidence for their claimed Jewish corruption of the Old Testament, no evidence for their claimed Christian corruption of the New Testament, no argument for the authenticity of their own Koran given that the caliph Uthman tried to have all variants of it other than his approved version destroyed (and failed - so much for their claimed lack of textual variants), and their arguments against the divinity of Christ and the unity of the Trinity are absurdly simplistic. I have yet to see a Muslim apologist who even claims to understand the distinction between person and substance, or between person, nature, and will; they have a lot of "how can three mean one?!" and not a lot of substantive engagement even with pre-islamic Christian theology.

I take your point but for me it was the commonalities between Islam and Orthodoxy that made the transition pretty seamless. First and foremost Islam's great veneration of Mary and Jesus. So I saw the commonalities rather than discrepancies, plus the notion of tawhid is refreshingly simple for a classical theist like myself who disdains unnecessary complexity.

You're right that Christianity can't be reduced to intellectual belief. I struggled with that in coming to Orthodoxy, since I was reading and listening to a lot of apologetics, which necessarily consists of rational arguments. Ultimately, the decision for me was a combination of intellectual beliefs and experiential learning through going to Orthodox churches.
That's precisely what I mean. Religion is an embodied, experiential immersion first and foremost. That's why I like Orthodoxy and Islam which put great emphasis on embodied ritual and worship, so that God is worshipped with one's whole being.
 
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Josheb

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Is that how I come across to you?
Try keeping the posts op-relevantly about the posts and not the posters. Tis op is about your concerns, not mine.
Yeah, should've posted in the Orthodox forum as I don't expect Protestants to understand me. Perhaps the moderators can help move the thread...
Highly recommended if it is sincerely believed the Orthodox Christian is the only Christian who can address the concerns of this op.
It broke your heart, it's exactly what I mean.
Then a Reformed Protestant can understand you...... and you've just contradicted yourself and discovered your own biases are getting in the way of solving your own problem.


Talk with God and listen. Go talk with a cleric and listen. Talk with God, again, and listen. Go talk with your father and listen. Talk to two or three other men who opinions you value and respect and listen. Talk with God again and make a choice that demonstrates you understand you don't stand before God with dad, a cleric, or me at your side. Get some good counsel on your loyalty to dad being the obstacle to your choosing God as you personally see fit and best.


Matthew 10:34-39
Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. And a person’s enemies will be those of his own household. Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.


That passage (and others like it) have prompted many to reject all prospect of salvation from sin and wrath according to Jesus because they do not believe those words.




Adults are responsible for themselves. Adults are responsible to others, not for others.
 
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