feeling crazy: sanctified by law?????

[lacell2007]

I go to a Presbyterian church I adore, but like any other churches
there are things I disagree with. One is that it seems Calvinists view
the role of the law in a believer's life in a different way than the
Dispensationalists. I know how we're justified, but how do we KEEP justified? The Bible gives SO many warnings about watching and being careful to keep the faith.

One thing I always think about in relation to this issue is this:

"Take heed brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of
unbelief, in departing from the living God, But exhort one another
daily, while it is called Today; lest any of you be hardened through
the deceitfulness of sin." Heb. 3:12-13

From this passage, doesn't it stand to reason that any willful sin we
engage in causes us to risk our heart becoming slowly hardened and
gradually leaving God due to it's deceitfulness. I've seen my
Christian friends deceived by sin - at first they say maybe seomthing's wrong then they start convincing themselves that "that Scriptures doesn't apply to this situation, etc. until they go ahead and do what b/f they knew was wrong. They stop believing what God says because they want that thing more than the truth. These people still attend church, and I think they have repented and are believers, but I'm just using it as an example of our capacity for SLOW self-deception. There must be a point b/f deception where the person believes the truth b/f they cross over into unbelief.

If willful sins deceive us and can lead us to not believe God, then - and this is the clincher - after believing, don't we have to keep the law to STAY saved? I don't mean to earn salvation since it's not by law but to STAY BELIEVING and to abide (John 15) in the One who already accomplished it for us by keeping the law. This sounds a little like what I understand to be the Catholic position (I am a Protestant struggling with this issue).

This still seems just as scary as justification by law (after all,
my understanding is that justification only lasts a split second and sanctification a lifetime). Maybe my logic is flawed, but it's not much of a comfort tome that I'm initially saved by faith apart from works (only for a split second) and then must fear that any subsequent disobedience risks me not staying in love and relationship with Christ (salvation).

Perhaps this is just me wanting to disobey, and God know this and
wants me to fear to keep me from disobeying (those passage do sound like God wants us to be warned and fear for a good purpose). Actually, to be totally honest, that's EXACTLY WHAT IT IS. I want to know that Iam saved totally apart from my works, so that if I did go on sinning willfully I would still be saved (but I know that's not biblical). Also, I know I wouldn't keep sinning anyway because I'm changed now. But part of me wants to believe I COULD keep sinning willfully and still be saved (though I know I wouldn't of course). I think this is probably wicked. This is also probably why I am so rebellious to all God's commands right now - I know I'm stiff arming Him. I want Him to tell me they have no bearing whatsoever on my eternal relationship with him [something I think He can't say b/c it isn't true (Hebrews 12:14)].

Why must I continually want what is not possible or even good. Why can't I just love the truth? I try to want what is good but I don't. I am SO, SO SICK OF THIS!!! I am actually incredibly enraged and
frustrated to tears right now, just as I mentioned before. I think
this issue is the crux of that anger. I feel like I'm caught in an
impossible bind I can't win, and until I get through this, the issue
will always keep cropping up in my life. I must put it to rest for good.

 

[Jon0388g]

I go to a Presbyterian church I adore, but like any other churches
there are things I disagree with. One is that it seems Calvinists view
the role of the law in a believer's life in a different way than the
Dispensationalists. I know how we're justified, but how do we KEEP justified? The Bible gives SO many warnings about watching and being careful to keep the faith.

One thing I always think about in relation to this issue is this:

"Take heed brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of
unbelief, in departing from the living God, But exhort one another
daily, while it is called Today; lest any of you be hardened through
the deceitfulness of sin." Heb. 3:12-13

From this passage, doesn't it stand to reason that any willful sin we
engage in causes us to risk our heart becoming slowly hardened and
gradually leaving God due to it's deceitfulness. I've seen my
Christian friends deceived by sin - at first they say maybe seomthing's wrong then they start convincing themselves that "that Scriptures doesn't apply to this situation, etc. until they go ahead and do what b/f they knew was wrong. They stop believing what God says because they want that thing more than the truth. These people still attend church, and I think they have repented and are believers, but I'm just using it as an example of our capacity for SLOW self-deception. There must be a point b/f deception where the person believes the truth b/f they cross over into unbelief.

If willful sins deceive us and can lead us to not believe God, then - and this is the clincher - after believing, don't we have to keep the law to STAY saved? I don't mean to earn salvation since it's not by law but to STAY BELIEVING and to abide (John 15) in the One who already accomplished it for us by keeping the law. This sounds a little like what I understand to be the Catholic position (I am a Protestant struggling with this issue).

This still seems just as scary as justification by law (after all,
my understanding is that justification only lasts a split second and sanctification a lifetime). Maybe my logic is flawed, but it's not much of a comfort tome that I'm initially saved by faith apart from works (only for a split second) and then must fear that any subsequent disobedience risks me not staying in love and relationship with Christ (salvation).

Perhaps this is just me wanting to disobey, and God know this and
wants me to fear to keep me from disobeying (those passage do sound like God wants us to be warned and fear for a good purpose). Actually, to be totally honest, that's EXACTLY WHAT IT IS. I want to know that Iam saved totally apart from my works, so that if I did go on sinning willfully I would still be saved (but I know that's not biblical). Also, I know I wouldn't keep sinning anyway because I'm changed now. But part of me wants to believe I COULD keep sinning willfully and still be saved (though I know I wouldn't of course). I think this is probably wicked. This is also probably why I am so rebellious to all God's commands right now - I know I'm stiff arming Him. I want Him to tell me they have no bearing whatsoever on my eternal relationship with him [something I think He can't say b/c it isn't true (Hebrews 12:14)].

Why must I continually want what is not possible or even good. Why can't I just love the truth? I try to want what is good but I don't. I am SO, SO SICK OF THIS!!! I am actually incredibly enraged and
frustrated to tears right now, just as I mentioned before. I think
this issue is the crux of that anger. I feel like I'm caught in an
impossible bind I can't win, and until I get through this, the issue
will always keep cropping up in my life. I must put it to rest for good.

Hi Lacell


Firstly, don't be discouraged! What you have said is spot on!


I wholeheartedly agree with your convictions. Did you consider why you are grappling so hard with this issue? Could it be the devil is causing you to doubt what the Holy Spirit is whispering?


You clearly know what the Bible teaches. Sanctification is as much a part of salvation as is justification:

"For God has not called us for the purpose of impurity, but in sanctification. So he who rejects this is not rejecting man, but the God who gives His Holy Spirit to you." 1 Thessalonians 4:7-8


Does wilful sin cause us to lose our salvation? Is it smooth sailing to paradise?

"For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins..." Hebrews 10:26

"So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure." Phillippians 2:12-13

Notice we are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.....but, it is God who is in us to produce the fruits of the Spirit! Do you see the human-divine cooperation involved in sanctification?


Throughout the Bible it is plainly taught that works of the law cannot and will not save us. It is only by the grace of God that we are saved. However, can we be saved when still transgressing God's law?


From the lips of God Himself:

"But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die......Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block for you." Ezekiel 18:24,30

Paul sums it up also:

"What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed.....But now, having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life." Romans 6:15-17, 22


A sinful man cannot obey the law of God. It is impossible. That is why we must be born again - be freed from sin - resulting in sanctification! It becomes our joy to obey the principles of the Father, and our deepest sorrow when we slip up. True repentance is also a part of sanctification:

"For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death. For behold what earnestness this very thing, this godly sorrow, has produced in you: what vindication of yourselves, what indignation, what fear, what loving, what zeal, what avenging of wrong! In everything you demonstrated yourselves to be innocent in the matter." 2 Corinthians 7:10-11


The Holy Spirit does not depart everytime we sin. It is Himself that causes this "godly sorrow" inside us, true repentance, that "leads to salvation." Confessing our sins daily is the very essence of sanctification, and the recognition of the justice of God's law.


Sorry I've written so much. I've been, and am in, your exact shoes, so I know what you are going through. Never forget, no matter how hard we fall:

"For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, not principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to seperate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 8:38-39




Jon

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Hi
I think your beliefs are correct. It is important to persevere. But I see why you are worrying, I've had this question too!

I think you're forgetting about the Holy Spirit. He helps us persevere, and brings us to repentance when we make mistakes (and God knows we will!). The person who loses faith is one that doesn't try to obey God, and refuses to repent sins...but He not only saves us by grace, through faith, but helps us persevere. If you want to obey God, you dont have anything to worry about. The problem is when people dont want to follow Him and willingly choose sin instead. The Bible tells us that we must make a firm foundation. The best foundation is a strong relationship with God..if we rely on Him, He would teach us the right things and convict us of sin when it's there so we'll be forgiven. Don't worry so much about failing, worry is not from God but from the enemy. God brings peace. As long as you want to persevere in faith, you're letting the Holy Spirit help you and even if you make mistakes, you'll always be able to come back.

The way I see it, we are saved by grace apart from works, but works are the evidence of our salvation. They are the Holy Spirit being active in our lives. All we have to do is to give up our selves and let Him take control. What I'm saying is, don't try to live the Christian life on your own effort! It's only frightening if you forget about the Holy Spirit.

"After starting your Christian lives in the Spirit, why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort?" (Galatians 3:3)

I'd even say that without the Spirit, each and every one of us would have lost our faith long ago.

God bless!


monica

ps: we're not sanctified by law, our obedience is just an outward sign of sanctification.

 

[SpiritDriven]

Will you lot stop walking after the Flesh!

Sex drugs and rock and Roll is walking after the Flesh according to Orthadox Christianity.

One thing you can rely on with Orthadox Christianity, is that the truth is the opposite of what Orthadox Christianity teaches.

Those that seek to make themselves right with God or not lose their right standing with God via what they do or do not do....are the ones walking after the Flesh !

God is just so perfect with the Irony of his wisdom.....LOL!

I just so Love you Lord!

Grace and Peace to you all...

PS, So go out and have a good time people....if you stuff up...hey dont worry about it, your right standing with God is because of what Jesus did at the Cross.....not because of anything you did right...or wrong.

 

[BigNorsk]

If you want to read about the history of the mistake you are thinking it was called Majorism.

You are doing a very Calvin like thing. Finding the Bible teaches one thing and then thinking the flip side must therefore also be true.

Scripture is pretty clear it is faith, not works that preserve us.

1Pe 1:5 NET.
(5) who by God's power are protected through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1Pe 1:9 NET.
(9) because you are attaining the goal of your faith — the salvation of your souls.

It is true that evil works destroys faith, but we cannot say that good works preserves faith. To do so turns the relationship of faith and works upside down. It is faith that sustains good works not good works sustain faith. And I would note that as soon as one thinks that ones good works are sustaining faith, then one has taken the place of God and so the supposed good works are not good works at all but are sin. And if good works sustain faith then salvation is no longer through faith alone but rather faith and works. When you get there, you agree with Rome.

Marv

 

[SpiritDriven]

NO Orthadox Christianity is not teaching that which is contained in Scripture....

Orthadox Christianity teaches the Doctrine of Eternal Torment...yet God speaks of his will being that all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

Orthadox Christianity teaches the Doctrine of Free Will...yet the word of God is saying that it is not about the Man who Wills or the Man who runs but of God who has Mercy.

Orthadox Christianity teaches you have to make a wise free will choice to believe.... when the word of God is saying that nobody can come to the Son unless drawn by the Father who sent him.....that God chooses us...not the other way around....that nobody should boast before God...that it is by his doing you are in Christ Jesus... and it just goes on and on and on.

Me..Majorism.... hardly.

Read the opening couple of versus of 1 Timothy 4 to see the road Orthadox Christianity has been led down.

Me... Majorism.... LOL.

 

[BigNorsk]

I was addressing the original post. Not you, SpiritDriven.

Marv