FBI Arrests 87-Year-Old Pro-Life Concentration Camp Survivor for Peacefully Protesting Abortion

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

That's simply an exaggeration at best. Being a Catholic does not require a particular politics. Only Catholic integralists and reactionaries believe otherwise.

Well, you can be a Catholic and a harlot. Yet Whoredom isn't something a Catholic is encouraged to engage in. There is such a thing as primary loyalty. Joe Biden has no primary loyalty to his Church and while he's a Catholic, he is acting in an un-Catholic manner by advocating a policy that goes against his religion.

I never said he wasn't a Catholic. Only that he doesn't act on that belief. Also, nothing wrong with the Integralists or Reactionaries. De Maistre was far more of a Catholic than Joe Biden ever will be.

The US government, including FBI, operates under the rule of law, not personal vendettas.

Lol, okay.

There's a difference between incendiary propaganda and a fair analysis of the situation.

Except this isn't propaganda, this is merely observing how American politics work. Presidents can and will refuse to enforce certain laws by directing their agencies to target certain people and ignore others. Donald Trump relied on the pro-life vote. They were a constituency, if he were to allow the sort of targeting of pro-lifers that we are seeing here by the FBI under Joe, they would have no reason to vote for him. You can extract this to any relation of power, in any political system.

Conservatives now know they cannot rely on the FBI. Their move should be against it and in that vein they need to pressure or replace the establishment GOP to move against the FBI. All legally of course. In the mean time, they need to realize they cannot count on the system.

 

[Bradskii]

Never said the FBI was hostile to Catholics. only that it is hostile to Pro-lifers.

No, it arrests those who break federal laws. Are you saying that this woman, who has a record of law breaking, should not have been arrested?

You know the details. Tell us what should have been done.

 

[FireDragon76]

Well, you can be a Catholic and a harlot. Yet Whoredom isn't something a Catholic is encouraged to engage in. There is such a thing as primary loyalty. Joe Biden has no primary loyalty to his Church and while he's a Catholic, he is acting in an un-Catholic manner by advocating a policy that goes against his religion.

Biden is also an American and the Catholic Church officially no longer sees "Americanism"- the belief in liberal democracy as a legitimate form of government, as a heresy. One can both be Catholic and believe people are free to determine their own government according to their own conscience, and not merely the dictates of a cardinal or even a pope. And since America is a pluralistic society, Biden has to represent the views of all Democrats, not just conservative Catholics.

I never said he wasn't a Catholic. Only that he doesn't act on that belief. Also, nothing wrong with the Integralists or Reactionaries. De Maistre was far more of a Catholic than Joe Biden ever will be.

Integralists and reactionaries are a very small minority among modern Catholics, and are more connected in the US to anti-semitic extremist groups and sedevacantism than mainstream Catholicism.

Except this isn't propaganda, this is merely observing how American politics work. Presidents can and will refuse to enforce certain laws by directing their agencies to target certain people and not others. Donald Trump relied on the pro-life vote.

Donald Trump was an exception not the rule, and that's one of the reasons that he is in legal trouble right now (and was impeached twice), so perhaps it's not good to use him as an example.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

No, it arrests those who break federal laws. Are you saying that this woman, who has a record of law breaking, should not have been arrested?

You know the details. Tell us what should have been done.

By the FBI? I don't believe the FBI should get getting involved for minor things like this at all. Is protecting abortion that big of a deal? Are there terrorists for the FBI to deal with? But if that is the game the left plays, then the right react in a measured way.

 

[FireDragon76]

By the FBI? I don't believe the FBI should get getting involved for minor things like this at all. Is protecting abortion that big of a deal? Are there terrorists for the FBI to deal with? But if that is the game the left plays, then the right react in a measured way.

Access to abortion was declared a civil right, protection of which is enforced by the federal government, not the states.

 

[Bradskii]

By the FBI? I don't believe the FBI should get getting involved for minor things like this at all. Is protecting abortion that big of a deal? Are there terrorists for the FBI to deal with? But if that is the game the left plays, then the right react in a measured way.

It's a federal offence. Has been for very many years, including the administrations of two Republican presidents. So what you think about it isn't really relevant. Protecting Access to Clinics

Again, as it is a federal offence, what do you think should have happened to tbe woman knowing the details?

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Biden is also an American and the Catholic Church officially no longer sees "Americanism"- the belief in liberal democracy as a legitimate form of government, as a heresy. One can both be Catholic and believe people are free to determine their own government according to their own conscience, and not merely the dictates of a cardinal or even a pope. And since America is a pluralistic society, Biden has to represent the views of all Democrats, not just conservative Catholics.

Right he values the Government and Democratic morality above his own Catholic morality. He views abortion as a higher good than his Church's own teaching against it. It's not a good Catholic thing to do though. It's basically a surrender of one's position to a higher authority. In this case, abortion. Abortion > Catholicism is the simple calculation in Biden and many of the lesser faithful Catholics who are dissident against their own Church. Ask some of the liberal Catholics on this forum. They know they are against their Church's position and yet they advocate against their Church anyway.

Of course, I'm not relying on a liberal idea here in my calculus of judging Joe Biden. I'm not a liberal and I'm not a secularist who subordinates his morality to those of his enemies.

Integralists and reactionaries are a very small minority among modern Catholics, and are more connected in the US to anti-semitic extremist groups and sedevacantism than mainstream Catholicism.

Yeah they're a minority, but I still don't see much wrong in integralists/Traditionalists I've encountered. They seem to understand the logic of their faith and where it draws them. In contrast to someone like Joe Biden, who will at every turn surrender a Catholic position to gain a political advantage. Joe Biden was previously against funding abortion. He's changed that to wanting to fund abortion with federal tax dollars. Joe Biden was previously against Homosexual marriage, now he is proudly for it along with gender transitioning.

Every position this man takes politically takes him further away from his Catholic Faith. In fact the other day I saw a clip of him basically suggesting to young girls that it's good for them sleep around and be promiscous before they're 30.

Donald Trump was an exception not the rule, and that's one of the reasons that he is in legal trouble right now (and was impeached twice), so perhaps it's not good to use him as an example.

Oh please, every President does this with their power and vast federal apparatus. Obama refused to enforce certain laws on deportation. George Bush ignored certain laws. There is no exception here, there is only power and influence. No President, ever has enforced all laws equally as they are written without regard to his base and constituency.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Access to abortion was declared a civil right, protection of which is enforced by the federal government, not the states.

Naturally and the right needs to know how far the left will go to defend said 'civil right." I'm not contesting the legal standard here, only that the pro-lifers need to understand what they're up against.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

It's a federal offence. Has been for very many years, including the administrations of two Republican presidents. So what you think about it isn't really relevant. Protecting Access to Clinics

Again, as it is a federal offence, what do you think should have happened to tbe woman knowing the details?

I don't know what should have happened. I only know I believe the FBI is unnecessary here. Do you believe any federal law broken can or should lead to the FBI being used against that citizen?

 

[Velaut]

title FBI Arrests 87-Year-Old Pro-Life Concentration Camp Survivor for Peacefully Protesting Abortion


Reading the title i immediately knew this was not true.
And whadayaknow, post nbr 3 debunks it entirely.

 

[FireDragon76]

Naturally and the right needs to know how much the left will go to defend said 'civil right." I'm not contesting the legal standard here, only that the pro-lifers need to understand what they're up against.

This isn't about partisanship, but the rule of law. The Department of Justice in the US has traditionally been seen as a non-partisan office, meaning the sort of behavior you describe is not part of the operating ethos (and that's one of the reasons Trump wasn't able to convince the Justice Department to do his bidding arbitrarily).

Defending the "rights" of people to block abortion clinics is an extreme political position. It hardly represents the vast majority of Americans, including many Republicans.

 

[FireDragon76]

Right he values the Government and Democratic morality above his own Catholic morality.

There is no such thing, this is just empty rhetoric. The US is a pluralistic society and a liberal democracy, and these principles are enshrined in our constitution and founding documents. Principles are not morals, and you are confusing the two. In a liberal society, religious communities and their associated moralities must compete on the merits and attractiveness of their way of life, they are not owned by the government.

He views abortion as a higher good than his Church's own teaching against it.

You simply are misrepresenting his own personal views. In a liberal society, there is a distinction between personal and public goods.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

There is no such thing, this is just empty rhetoric. The US is a pluralistic society and a liberal democracy, and these principles are enshrined in our constitution and founding documents. Principles are not morals, and you are confusing the two. In a liberal society, religious communities and their associated moralities must compete on the merits and attractiveness of their way of life, they cannot be granted official status.

I don't think I've denied that the US is a pluralist, Liberal Democratic society. That however isn't a Catholic society and Joe Biden by choosing to embrace America and it's modern egalitarianism over the particularism that is required by a confession like Catholicism simply means he is less Catholic. Catholicism being quite exclusive and particularist. You for instance can never receive the Catholic eucharist because you are outside of the Church and the Body of Christ according to Catholics.

So to summarize, Liberal Secular Democracy > Catholicism is how things work for Joe Biden. He cannot govern as a Catholic, he must surrender any Catholics values he might have had to have a chance at power or none at all. You're telling me that the reactionaries and such are wrong or bad Catholics. But are they? What does compromising with this system you and Joe Biden advocate for do except water down the faith?

Joe Biden has become less Catholic over the years, not more Catholic. His positions have changed with the political and cultural winds of modernity, not his faith.

You simply are misrepresenting his own personal views. In a liberal society, there is a distinction between personal and public goods.

Has Joe Biden shared his private views? I'm inclined to believe that if you want to fund abortion with tax payer dollars you must believe in the moral good of abortion. Actions speak louder than words and Joe has consistently throughout his political career become a more aggressive ally of abortion. He loves it. Has he said any thing recently that is against abortion even on a personal level? I don't think so and if he has I would be inclined to think he is fibbing.

 

[disciple Clint]

The FBI is the federal law enforcement arm of the duly elected government of the United States. It is not illegitimate. People may disagree with the government, but calling the government an "enemy" would be inflammatory rhetoric that is anti-American.

but calling the government an "enemy" would be inflammatory rhetoric that is anti-American.

but not against the law in this nation, well it is not against the law in this nation yet, some how I fear we will Progress to that end, if some people have their way.

 

[Bradskii]

I don't know what should have happened. I only know I believe the FBI is unnecessary here. Do you believe any federal law broken can or should lead to the FBI being used against that citizen?

The link I gave will tell you all you need to know about what laws are relevant and the lack of state laws that prompt the requirement for them. You seem unaware of what they are. And why they are needed. And the link in the op will give you all the details about the offenses comitted. Perhaps you haven't read them yet.

Assuming that you now have, yet again I will ask... what do you you think the fed officers should have done?

 

[disciple Clint]

By the FBI? I don't believe the FBI should get getting involved for minor things like this at all. Is protecting abortion that big of a deal? Are there terrorists for the FBI to deal with? But if that is the game the left plays, then the right react in a measured way.

The FBI is very busy arresting pro life demonstrators, in fact so busy that they do not seem able to get around to making much in the way of progress in the investigations of the damage done to pro life facilities.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

The link I gave will tell you all you need to know about what laws are relevant and the lack of state laws that prompt the requirement for them. You seem unaware of what they are. And why they are needed. And the link in the op will give you all the details about the offenses comitted. Perhaps you haven't read them yet.

Assuming that you now have, yet again I will ask... what do you you think the fed officers should have done?

I'll repeat myself, I don't think the FBI should be involved to begin with. That's all I'm claiming. Do you want the FBI involved in every crime, no matter how minor?

 

[Bradskii]

I'll repeat myself, I don't think the FBI should be involved to begin with. That's all I'm claiming. Do you want the FBI involved in every crime, no matter how minor?

Whether you think federal laws are required or not is, again, irrelevant. That you think they shouldn't be is not all you were claiming. You claimed that the FBI was targetting pro life people. The FBI are obliged to uphold federal laws whoever breaks them. In this case, laws that have been on the books for decades. So if someone is so obviously breaking those laws (and has been for many years) and this is the fourth time of asking, what do you think they should do?

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Whether you think federal laws are required or not is, again, irrelevant. You accused the FBI of targetting pro life people. The FBI are obliged to uphold federal laws whoever breaks them. In this case, laws that have been on the books for decades. So if someone is so obviously breaking those laws (and has been for many years) and this is the fourth time of asking, what do you think they should do?

Again, I'll say I don't believe the FBI should be involved here. For the fourth time, or fifth time. I've lost count.

 

[Bradskii]

Again, I'll say I don't believe the FBI should be involved here. For the fourth time, or fifth time. I've lost count.

You claimed that the FBI was targetting pro life people. What should they have done in this case?