False Signs and Wonders

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I have come to realise that the group that may be more likely to be deceived by the false signs and wonders are the Charismatics. I am not putting down the Charismatic experience with its passion for lost souls, true signs and wonders and present-day manifestation of the gifts of the Spirit. But over the last 50 years I have seen a general trend away from Christ and Him crucified in mega-churches and mass conferences to a New Age "Bless me with sensual experience" attitudes.

I watched a couple of Youtube videos of the Brownsville Revival meetings and was really impressed with the hundreds of people going forward for salvation. Also, in one meet there was a wave of the Spirit that went over the congregation that caused most to weep and travail in prayer for lost souls, resulting in an overwhelming number receiving Christ. On two occasions in conventions I attended here in New Zealand I saw and experienced exactly the same thing I saw at the Brownsville Revival. So I have no time at all for those slanderers, liars and criticizers of any meetings where the Holy Spirit has fallen like that resulting in multitudes getting saved.

However, one fault of Charismatics is that they view everything supernatural as coming from God. They have little realisation that Satan can come up with false signs and wonders that are as supernatural as true Holy Spirit ones. I remember that the first four supernatural acts that Moses did before Pharoah was matched by the magicians and the latter was as supernatural as the miracles that Moses performed. But when it came to the fifth one, the magicians couldn't match it.

There have been testimonies of occult members getting supernatural healing, and when they have come to Christ, they have lost the healing. Witch doctors are used to using the supernatural, and there was one instance where a family had a feud with another and so they went to the witchdoctor who said that at midtnight a jackal will howl and the youngest son of the family will die. Sure enough, at midnight, a jackal howled and the son died!

At an American grade-school, they had a social experiment to see how incantations affected a person, so they had a young boy in the middle, while the other children formed a circle around him, then repeated, "You die, you die, you die" many times. The teacher observed that the boy was being physically affected and stopped the activity. The boy was pale and on the verse of falling unconscious. If the activity had continued for longer, the boy might have died! That was supernatural!

So, there is a strict warning for Charismatics. There needs to be a greater discernment between what are true godly supernatural signs and wonders, and false signs and wonders. Many areas of the Charismatic church are already falling into error and allowing New Age supernatural events happening in their services, mainly because they are accepting everything supernatural as coming from the Holy Spirit.

The outcome of a godly signs and wonders is that people will turn to Christ as Lord and Saviour. False signs and wonders will emphasize the person, and the "bless me" attitude and will cause people to worship the preacher and elevate him instead of Christ. Also, where there is a mixture between true and false signs and wonders in a church group, under the surface there will be manipulation, intimidation and control (witchcraft), and hidden immorality.

I joined a Charismatic church which turned out to have a strong element of manipulation and control in it, with good leaders who disagreed with the guy who set himself up as the "senior pastor" being quietly accused of not going along with the "body" and pushed manipulated out of leadership by being discredited through gossip and slander. I also found out that before I joined that church, there had been a scandal involving all of the youth being involved in sexual immorality,

I value the ministry of Derek Prince who sets out the truth about deception affecting the churches quite clearly and has given me much insight and answers many questions that I had while I was involved with my own Charismatic church over the seven years I was with it.

 

[Verv]

Very well said.

I would also say this... I heard of a man who received signs of God, but when he asked his spiritual father why did he get these signs it was explained that it was only because he had grown up with so little benefit (he never learned of Christ well and was raised by atheists). So I think that signs are for people who need this sort of benefit.

Christ has also told us that a wicked generation asks for signs (Mt. 16:4).

We shouldn't seek these signs because it makes us come off as faithless, first and foremost, as Christ implies above, and because it also opens us up to the supernatural workings not of God at all.

Great post.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Very well said.

I would also say this... I heard of a man who received signs of God, but when he asked his spiritual father why did he get these signs it was explained that it was only because he had grown up with so little benefit (he never learned of Christ well and was raised by atheists). So I think that signs are for people who need this sort of benefit.

Christ has also told us that a wicked generation asks for signs (Mt. 16:4).

We shouldn't seek these signs because it makes us come off as faithless, first and foremost, as Christ implies above, and because it also opens us up to the supernatural workings not of God at all.

Great post.

Of course we don't throw out the baby with the bath water. There have been many miracles and true signs and wonders within the Charismatic movement, and the error at the other extreme is to treat every supernatural event as being false. What we need to do is to determine what is the outcome of a miracle - does it glorify Christ, cause people to turn to Christ and enhance believers' faith and experience in Him? If so, then it is true, because Satan will never glorify Christ or cause sinners to turn to Him.

But if the miracle's outcome is to exalt a church group or a human ministry and causes people to give more regard to the man than Christ, and if the man is "hero-worshiped", or if the man seems to be going after increased wealth because of the miracles, or making promises of miracles for money in the form of "tithes", then we can know that the signs and wonders performed in that environment, even though supernatural, are false and demonic,

 

[SinoBen]

I have come to realise that the group that may be more likely to be deceived by the false signs and wonders are the Charismatics. I am not putting down the Charismatic experience with its passion for lost souls, true signs and wonders and present-day manifestation of the gifts of the Spirit. But over the last 50 years I have seen a general trend away from Christ and Him crucified in mega-churches and mass conferences to a New Age "Bless me with sensual experience" attitudes.

I'm in a multi-campus church. I'm not seeing what you're seeing, at least, I haven't detected it in my particular campus. Then again I keep a tight group of friends so I may not be aware of what may or may not be happening elsewhere in the church.

So, there is a strict warning for Charismatics. There needs to be a greater discernment between what are true godly supernatural signs and wonders, and false signs and wonders. Many areas of the Charismatic church are already falling into error and allowing New Age supernatural events happening in their services, mainly because they are accepting everything supernatural as coming from the Holy Spirit.

Good advice, though thankfully I have not seen those excesses where we are. New converts are added every week, there were baptisms last week. New emphasis on revival this year and we have heard weekly reports of various other miracles as well.

The outcome of a godly signs and wonders is that people will turn to Christ as Lord and Saviour. False signs and wonders will emphasize the person, and the "bless me" attitude and will cause people to worship the preacher and elevate him instead of Christ. Also, where there is a mixture between true and false signs and wonders in a church group, under the surface there will be manipulation, intimidation and control (witchcraft), and hidden immorality.

These are the ones to watch out for, I totally agree. If anything, I think we are in danger of worshipping the preacher/leader here. I do wonder, are people just being very positive about the leader? being very encouraging? I don't quite know for certain.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Oscar,

Appreciate your post and agree, having seen what you have over the same period I am guessing.

You did say this...

But if the miracle's outcome is to exalt a church group or a human ministry and causes people to give more regard to the man than Christ, and if the man is "hero-worshiped", or if the man seems to be going after increased wealth because of the miracles, or making promises of miracles for money in the form of "tithes", then we can know that the signs and wonders performed in that environment, even though supernatural, are false and demonic,

I think because of His great grace some genuine miracles may still take place even in such a man centred spiritual environment.

Apart from that, your post was like a playback of my own thoughts.

Blessings,

Carl Emerson.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

I have come to realise that the group that may be more likely to be deceived by the false signs and wonders are the Charismatics. I am not putting down the Charismatic experience with its passion for lost souls, true signs and wonders and present-day manifestation of the gifts of the Spirit. But over the last 50 years I have seen a general trend away from Christ and Him crucified in mega-churches and mass conferences to a New Age "Bless me with sensual experience" attitudes.

Yes and I would add I really think certain movements like the Faith and Prosperity movement greatly feeds into this sort of thing. The notion of carrying your cross etc. is almost done away with. There are many times in our life where we have to face pain, difficult circumstances and loss, and not only that but God often uses those things for our development, but that sort of thing does not register with those people. They often preach against that saying "God paid for it all on the cross."

 

[Carl Emerson]

I think that discernment gifts are a 'body ministry' like the spirits of prophets being subject to the prophets. In the modern church the essential foundation of unity that these gifts need to function properly has been largely lost and replaced by a man management model. This unity cannot operate without humility, sensitivity, and respect for the least.

Blessings,

Carl Emerson.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

One notion I want to write about or have a thread on someday in the future is the notion of truth. In the Bible the Greek word, alethia actually means objective truth or truth in reality. One problem I noticed as many people in this movement have trouble with that notion. I entered the movement coming out of studying psychology. The notion of "reality testing" ones notions is very familiar and sensible to me, but many charismatics have hostility to that or even though if you look at Bible verses about discernment and their lexical meanings that should be a nobrainer.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I have come to realise that the group that may be more likely to be deceived by the false signs and wonders are the Charismatics. I am not putting down the Charismatic experience with its passion for lost souls, true signs and wonders and present-day manifestation of the gifts of the Spirit. But over the last 50 years I have seen a general trend away from Christ and Him crucified in mega-churches and mass conferences to a New Age "Bless me with sensual experience" attitudes.

I watched a couple of Youtube videos of the Brownsville Revival meetings and was really impressed with the hundreds of people going forward for salvation. Also, in one meet there was a wave of the Spirit that went over the congregation that caused most to weep and travail in prayer for lost souls, resulting in an overwhelming number receiving Christ. On two occasions in conventions I attended here in New Zealand I saw and experienced exactly the same thing I saw at the Brownsville Revival. So I have no time at all for those slanderers, liars and criticizers of any meetings where the Holy Spirit has fallen like that resulting in multitudes getting saved.

However, one fault of Charismatics is that they view everything supernatural as coming from God. They have little realisation that Satan can come up with false signs and wonders that are as supernatural as true Holy Spirit ones. I remember that the first four supernatural acts that Moses did before Pharoah was matched by the magicians and the latter was as supernatural as the miracles that Moses performed. But when it came to the fifth one, the magicians couldn't match it.

There have been testimonies of occult members getting supernatural healing, and when they have come to Christ, they have lost the healing. Witch doctors are used to using the supernatural, and there was one instance where a family had a feud with another and so they went to the witchdoctor who said that at midtnight a jackal will howl and the youngest son of the family will die. Sure enough, at midnight, a jackal howled and the son died!

At an American grade-school, they had a social experiment to see how incantations affected a person, so they had a young boy in the middle, while the other children formed a circle around him, then repeated, "You die, you die, you die" many times. The teacher observed that the boy was being physically affected and stopped the activity. The boy was pale and on the verse of falling unconscious. If the activity had continued for longer, the boy might have died! That was supernatural!

So, there is a strict warning for Charismatics. There needs to be a greater discernment between what are true godly supernatural signs and wonders, and false signs and wonders. Many areas of the Charismatic church are already falling into error and allowing New Age supernatural events happening in their services, mainly because they are accepting everything supernatural as coming from the Holy Spirit.

The outcome of a godly signs and wonders is that people will turn to Christ as Lord and Saviour. False signs and wonders will emphasize the person, and the "bless me" attitude and will cause people to worship the preacher and elevate him instead of Christ. Also, where there is a mixture between true and false signs and wonders in a church group, under the surface there will be manipulation, intimidation and control (witchcraft), and hidden immorality.

I joined a Charismatic church which turned out to have a strong element of manipulation and control in it, with good leaders who disagreed with the guy who set himself up as the "senior pastor" being quietly accused of not going along with the "body" and pushed manipulated out of leadership by being discredited through gossip and slander. I also found out that before I joined that church, there had been a scandal involving all of the youth being involved in sexual immorality,

I value the ministry of Derek Prince who sets out the truth about deception affecting the churches quite clearly and has given me much insight and answers many questions that I had while I was involved with my own Charismatic church over the seven years I was with it.

I find it helpful to sift between paranormal and spiritual, just because it is invisible doesn't mean it is spiritual. Paranormal events come from a physical source such as the human body and sometimes closely mimicks what the Holy Spirit does.

regrettably manipulation comes with the territory where-ever there are paid positions at stake. It's human nature.

 

[d taylor]

Actually there is not much truth coming out of churches now. There are man created gospels, man created celebrations (christmas,etc), many believe in science's descriptions of God's creation (globe earth, evolution) and not the Bibles, the wealth and other ideas of this kind of teaching. This is just a few that easily come to mind, but i am sure the list is very long if really looked into.

So it would seem that the churches are open for false signs, etc..

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Actually there is not much truth coming out of churches now. There are man created gospels, man created celebrations (christmas,etc), many believe in science's descriptions of God's creation (globe earth, evolution) and not the Bibles, the wealth and other ideas of this kind of teaching. This is just a few that easily come to mind, but i am sure the list is very long if really looked into.

So it would seem that the churches are open for false signs, etc..

This is why we cannot put our trust in church organisations no matter how good they seem to be. When we stand in the judgment, we will stand alone to account for our own lives. If there are issues, we cannot put any blame on the church organisation. Therefore, even if the church is full of devils, we need to make sure that our own calling and election in Christ is sure.

 

[scottmcc2]

Teachers/Preachers/Church leaders should emphasize these Scriptures:
1 Corinthians 11:1
Philippians 3:17
2 Thessalonians 3:9
Ephesians 5:1-2
1 Thessalonians 5:21

 

[Blade]

Thanks but "Charismatics"? You dont know all or most. So just who are you talking about? Did you talk to anyone at Brownsville Revival? Do we think the enemy is never in the Church? There are those but if its not upsetting or making a scene causing problems. Always going to be people in ANY group where they shout to much.. dance to much...run around.. all kind of things.

That does not always = Satan. How can someone of the light no more about darkness? We look for the good not the bad. Sorry but the enemy can not create..can not heal. Like Jesus said.. a kingdom divided against it self will fall. God heals.. the enemy will as JESUS said.. come right in and try to steal take away the word.

All good things come from GOD. Gifts.. where do you think they ALL came from? God gives to ALL! Now some will ..to make this simple.. will TUNE into the wrong station. So that gift is now used the wrong way..

So lets try not to lump ALL Charismatics... they are no different the Baptist or Word of Faith. JESUS is lord or there life..gifts or not.. we are ONE family and we NEED each other.. One big pie.. without ALL its nothing

 

[Alithis]

I have come to realise that the group that may be more likely to be deceived by the false signs and wonders are the Charismatics. I am not putting down the Charismatic experience with its passion for lost souls, true signs and wonders and present-day manifestation of the gifts of the Spirit. But over the last 50 years I have seen a general trend away from Christ and Him crucified in mega-churches and mass conferences to a New Age "Bless me with sensual experience" attitudes.

I watched a couple of Youtube videos of the Brownsville Revival meetings and was really impressed with the hundreds of people going forward for salvation. Also, in one meet there was a wave of the Spirit that went over the congregation that caused most to weep and travail in prayer for lost souls, resulting in an overwhelming number receiving Christ. On two occasions in conventions I attended here in New Zealand I saw and experienced exactly the same thing I saw at the Brownsville Revival. So I have no time at all for those slanderers, liars and criticizers of any meetings where the Holy Spirit has fallen like that resulting in multitudes getting saved.

However, one fault of Charismatics is that they view everything supernatural as coming from God. They have little realisation that Satan can come up with false signs and wonders that are as supernatural as true Holy Spirit ones. I remember that the first four supernatural acts that Moses did before Pharoah was matched by the magicians and the latter was as supernatural as the miracles that Moses performed. But when it came to the fifth one, the magicians couldn't match it.

There have been testimonies of occult members getting supernatural healing, and when they have come to Christ, they have lost the healing. Witch doctors are used to using the supernatural, and there was one instance where a family had a feud with another and so they went to the witchdoctor who said that at midtnight a jackal will howl and the youngest son of the family will die. Sure enough, at midnight, a jackal howled and the son died!

At an American grade-school, they had a social experiment to see how incantations affected a person, so they had a young boy in the middle, while the other children formed a circle around him, then repeated, "You die, you die, you die" many times. The teacher observed that the boy was being physically affected and stopped the activity. The boy was pale and on the verse of falling unconscious. If the activity had continued for longer, the boy might have died! That was supernatural!

So, there is a strict warning for Charismatics. There needs to be a greater discernment between what are true godly supernatural signs and wonders, and false signs and wonders. Many areas of the Charismatic church are already falling into error and allowing New Age supernatural events happening in their services, mainly because they are accepting everything supernatural as coming from the Holy Spirit.

The outcome of a godly signs and wonders is that people will turn to Christ as Lord and Saviour. False signs and wonders will emphasize the person, and the "bless me" attitude and will cause people to worship the preacher and elevate him instead of Christ. Also, where there is a mixture between true and false signs and wonders in a church group, under the surface there will be manipulation, intimidation and control (witchcraft), and hidden immorality.

I joined a Charismatic church which turned out to have a strong element of manipulation and control in it, with good leaders who disagreed with the guy who set himself up as the "senior pastor" being quietly accused of not going along with the "body" and pushed manipulated out of leadership by being discredited through gossip and slander. I also found out that before I joined that church, there had been a scandal involving all of the youth being involved in sexual immorality,

I value the ministry of Derek Prince who sets out the truth about deception affecting the churches quite clearly and has given me much insight and answers many questions that I had while I was involved with my own Charismatic church over the seven years I was with it.

there is a much overlooked false sign in the opposite extreme...
the sign where all is peace and calm and order -the system gathering is from 10am to 12pm
it has nice songs lovely talk ,gathers money , stirring sermon espousing the wrong of .. those people in that building over there ... etc .
and in all its form of Godliness has the opposite extreme of NO power because it is DENIED .
and the group takes it quiet religious order as a SIGN unto themselves of how right they are . but they are only right "In their OWN EYES "

this too is false signs .

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

there is a much overlooked false sign in the opposite extreme...
the sign where all is peace and calm and order -the system gathering is from 10am to 12pm
it has nice songs lovely talk ,gathers money , stirring sermon espousing the wrong of .. those people in that building over there ... etc .
and in all its form of Godliness has the opposite extreme of NO power because it is DENIED .
and the group takes it quiet religious order as a SIGN unto themselves of how right they are . but they are only right "In their OWN EYES "

this too is false signs .

The whole point of a New Testament church is for people to gather together, use the gifts God has given them to build up the people, and to equip them to effectively save souls in the community. Any other type of church is merely a religious club.

 

[ARBITER01]

This has been going on for quite a while actually.

I do spend time reading up on the older revivals here in America. I enjoy reading up on Maria Woodsworth Etters events, but some of the same excesses of the flesh were happening during her meetings also.

I believe it is allowed to happen because people can't say no.

If you are a person that GOD is operating through in a power ministry, then you are the leader during those times, and are expected to stop the excess that the flesh tries to manifest during these meetings.

 

[Alithis]

The whole point of a New Testament church is for people to gather together, use the gifts God has given them to build up the people, and to equip them to effectively save souls in the community. Any other type of church is merely a religious club.

and does this occur in MOST sunday clubs ? we know for certain it does not . so what are they being built up into ?
a hijacked and corrupt system dominated by monetary need and controls .there are always the exceptions . but they are few

 

[Alithis]

This is why we cannot put our trust in church organisations no matter how good they seem to be. When we stand in the judgment, we will stand alone to account for our own lives. If there are issues, we cannot put any blame on the church organisation. Therefore, even if the church is full of devils, we need to make sure that our own calling and election in Christ is sure.

if its that bad .. should we not .. come out of her .
how can we fellowship with sin ?

i often hear things like ..oh yes but our church is not "like that" - oh sure there are some things just wrong - but mostly its pretty good etc

but if there are some things that are wrong and they stay wrong and they are not being dealt with
then what did Jesus say ?
a LITTLE leven corrupts the whole thing . if its not being dealt with and cut out of the body then get out of it before it corrupts you too

 

[Alithis]

Oscar,

Appreciate your post and agree, having seen what you have over the same period I am guessing.

You did say this...



I think because of His great grace some genuine miracles may still take place even in such a man centred spiritual environment.

Apart from that, your post was like a playback of my own thoughts.

Blessings,

Carl Emerson.

i agree .. this can be defined as a case of .." the person who got healed -received a Gift of healing ". and that need not have ANYTHING to do with the man who prayed .

 

[Alithis]

Teachers/Preachers/Church leaders should emphasize these Scriptures:
1 Corinthians 11:1
Philippians 3:17
2 Thessalonians 3:9
Ephesians 5:1-2
1 Thessalonians 5:21

oh no please ... there is already enough imitating of people with very BAD examples .
the apostles could say that because they were imitating CHRIST .