False God's in the Bible

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justified

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I don’t have time to get into it now…….bhahahahahahahahaha…………run away …..run away………………………... perhaps it will confuse him if I run away some more…………………… avoid answering any points myself…………………………………….. and try and redirect the discussion to something else.
I'm not running anywhere. But you appear to be:

Plain and simple Moloch=Baal you are just wrong………oh so wrong…………….I know you are not able to admit this………….that’s ok I understand. I’m done with you .....wipe wipe wipe.


I'm still waiting for more information from you. Firstly, you say Marduk was the chief god at Ur...exactly how do you know this and in what period are you referring? Secondly, you say Marduk was associated with child-sacrifice. How do you know this.

When I have been able to piece together your thinking, I will respond to the total argument, including those parts I did not have time for last night.
 
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HaNotsri

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Actually, I am going to have to agree with Just the Facts here on the Moloch issue. One of the reasons why Jews (well, the vast majority) do not accept Christ today has to do with the obvious similarities between the Gospel accounts and the myths of other pagan Middle-Eastern religions. Not to mention the fact that the other cultures at the time DID sacrifice their first born by "sending them through the fire." Human sacrifice was forbidden by the Torah as a result of it being a pagan custom, which is another reason why Jesus isn't accepted as the Messiah...because of His sacrifice.
 
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Just The Facts

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Hi HaNotsri

Yes moloch was Child Sacrifice.

The practise of Human sacrifice and child sacrifice originated in Ur around 1900BC When the Mesopotamian God Murduk rose to the top of the hierarchy of Mesopotamian gods. This was just before the Time Of Abraham. Sites have been found with up to 80 human sacrifices including babies. The practise slowly developed into Sacrifice of the First born Including Animals and Children. Later The sacrificed was burnt and offered as a burnt sacrifice. This practise then migrated from Mesopotamia to Phoenicia No one is sure when this happened but Child Sacrifice seems to have started about 1700 in Phonecia..
 
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HaNotsri

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That sounds like a rabbinic apologetic, but not one I have heard before. Can you expand?

It may be rabbinic apologetics, but that doesn't change the historical truth. That is there were many pagan and idolatric myths involving much the same events (or types of events) as is in Christendom.

Michael
 
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justified

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The practise of Human sacrifice and child sacrifice originated in Ur around 1900BC When the Mesopotamian God Murduk rose to the top of the hierarchy of Mesopotamian gods. This was just before the Time Of Abraham. Sites have been found with up to 80 human sacrifices including babies. The practise slowly developed into Sacrifice of the First born Including Animals and Children.

I'm still waiting for proof of this.
 
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HaNotsri

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On the "pass through the flames" thing, the context in the Hebrew text is clear that it is referring to some type of Divination and Magic, not sacrifice (e.g. Deut. 18.10,11).

כִּי אַתָּה בָּא אֶל-הָאָרֶץ, אֲשֶׁר-יְהוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ נֹתֵן לָךְ--לֹא-תִלְמַד לַעֲשׂוֹת, כְּתוֹעֲבֹת הַגּוֹיִם הָהֵם.

Ki atah ba el-haArets, asher-HaShem Elokecha nosein lach--lo sil'mad la'asos, k'soa'vos hagoyim hahem

As (When) you come to the Land that the LORD your God gives you, do not learn to do after the abominations of those nations

לֹא-יִמָּצֵא בְךָ, מַעֲבִיר בְּנוֹ-וּבִתּוֹ בָּאֵשׁ, קֹסֵם קְסָמִים, מְעוֹנֵן וּמְנַחֵשׁ וּמְכַשֵּׁף

Lo-yimatse v'cha, ma'avir b'no-u'vato ba'aish, qosem qasamim, m'onen um'nachesh um'chashef

No one shall exist in (among) you, that passes his son or daughter into the fire, that is a user of divination, a sorcerer, or an enchanter, or a witch,

וְחֹבֵר, חָבֶר; וְשֹׁאֵל אוֹב וְיִדְּעֹנִי, וְדֹרֵשׁ אֶל-הַמֵּתִים

v'chover, chaver, v'shoel ov v'yidoni, v'doresh el-hamesim

or a charmer, or one who inquires with a familiar spirit and wizard, or seeks/worships the dead

כִּי-תוֹעֲבַת יְהוָה, כָּל-עֹשֵׂה אֵלֶּה; וּבִגְלַל, הַתּוֹעֵבֹת הָאֵלֶּה, יְהוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ, מוֹרִישׁ אוֹתָם מִפָּנֶיךָ

Ki-soa'vas HaShem, kol-oseh eleh; uvig'lal, hatoevos haeleh, HaShem Elokecha, morish osam mipanecha

For abominations to the LORD are all who DO these things; because of these abominations, the LORD your God is driving them out from your face (from before you)

These are things that people do that are an offense to the LORD. They really passed their children to through the fire, it has nothing to do with Divination or Magic (those were just other things that were to'evos "abominations").
 
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exodus19

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you still are not hearing the Word of God. This passing through the fire was not a physical fire, just as it says in Isaiah that "they would eat the flesh of their flesh," elsewhere it was said they went from one fire into another, referring the life of heathenism into another continuing condition of life in in hell.

All life that is in the conditions of evil are of the A"fire type" that is they are a consuming fire becuause the people are devoured by the cultures of lust life.

I don't know when you are going to start hearing this for what is is.
Elsewhere i , believe David wrote that the children were ripped from the mothers as if to say aborted, yet all it implied was that the children were caught unto a LIBERAL TYPE OF GOVERMENT OR CULTURE' wherein life was filled with worshipping all kinds of gods.

Despite your so called 'christian born ' western inheritence are you not permitted to think of god as you like. i mean by that that God is who you want Him to be for you.
hence you believe in you own god as you see Him.

This is the character of the OT teachings and liberties, any god, as it was written and the offered insense to the ''god with no name'''.

Do you know the root meaning of insense?

have you done your etemolgy on the root word.?

You will find it leads to flesh offerings that are done in vain and that they cause the consience of one to be wild.

i don't believe you do enough research and analysis of the teachings of the OT.

What started out as an Exodus and promise to the good children, ie the 'Daughters of Isreal', it was soon aborted by the lust of the old lifestyle of the Assyrian habits of living under the Pharoah.

Most of the children revolted against Moses the head of the Jews and mouth of God. and they returned to old ways of offering flesh to the god Molech which was in resemblence to the Hindu practices of Baal and Baalim,
it appears that you are not cordinating the History correctly.

5,000 years ago the center of the world was in India and the kings were of the Barata family. They ruled the world and there was at that time an epic battle between the cousins and members of the families for rulership ot Assyria, or Barata, ie the World.

The types of worship that evolved from this era and time where to the Gods of heaven, Vishnu, Siva and Brahma. The branches of these particular teachings fell to practices of idolatry, wherein carved images of wood and stone and concepts of Queens of heaven as you read in the OT were the common method for worship and service to the gods.
there were hundreds of millions of people living in this central india area.
The regions of Mesopotamia were not as populated nor where the counties of Eden and alike.

Herein in this the beginning story of the Bible because Eden was a rich land where it was agriculturally good. But there too where the practices of Hinduism going on and their were the Northern type of indians who were rather large in stature and who had large armies for battle, hence the giants that you read about in the early chapters when the children of the children of Adam and Eve were mingling among the these tribes of idolators.

They were are aslo referred to as snakes or serpent like men b/c the where living lives of sin and were influenced by the 'Not gods" from the customs of the "MYTH Gods" from India cultures.

So until you really know the ancient History as to the orgins of the world and the effects of the Great Flood as it also applied to the Indian culture. They too have alot recoreded in their Text about the flood that Noah in the region of Mesopotamia lived their were millions who drowned and miliions who survived going to the mountain tops in India as well.

So, although you have this Bible and it's apparent expression that Adam and EVe were the first two born, science clearly confirms that earth has had humans and animals for hundreds of thousands of years, as do the historical books of the Indian cultures, called the Vedas' that was recorded in the Sanskrit language and incidently has been proven to be the oldest know language to man.

So many of you may want to deny this b/c of your fanatacism to literalism as well accepting only western historians view of things, that is clearly your choice, But unless and untill you broaden your understanding and acceptance of what actually took place and where , when and how, through other knowledge in the world, you will forever be tripping over minor incidentals and mispercieved concepts as recorded in the Bible.

But one thing will always be for certain, "you need not have to have a degree and knowledge of all the history to love and serve God in perfection" Even a physically blind man or anyone can perfect their faith and love God in their hearts. Love is not dependent upon how much knowledge you have.
Perfect Wisdom is very simple and available to all through faith unto good works accepting the son and the Father, simultaneously, and through repentence of sin , the Holy Spirit spirit can speak unto a child.

So with that note , i'll say , "keep yourself from idols",and beleiving in your own god, but surrender to the God of Moses and sing that song for it is in that song shall the elect be blessed.

That is the purport of Revelation.

peace unto ya'll.
 
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justified

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you still are not hearing the Word of God. This passing through the fire was not a physical fire, just as it says in Isaiah that "they would eat the flesh of their flesh," elsewhere it was said they went from one fire into another, referring the life of heathenism into another continuing condition of life in in hell.
you have absolutely no evidence for that claim...
 
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exodus19

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excuse me?

and you say what?
no evidence.

that's odd anyone who has read the OT should no that these expressions are written and that they pertain to one life to the next in hell.

and the same said jesus " let the dead bury dead," that too refers to living and continuing again.

if not, do you believe the soul is made of matter and then disappears?

what basis or grounds do you have, to say the soul is not eternal.

and if not eternal, then what, why morality?
 
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exodus19

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oh ok,

let me see where should i start.

perhaps with Moses would be the beginning.

i am the beginning and the end the volume of the Book is about God.

Deuteronomy ch 29 and begin verse 1 and read then you will get to verse 23 ;" and that the who land is therefore brimstone and salt, and burning that it is not sown.
THIS IS AN EXPRESSION REGARDING THEIR IS NO MORE TRUE GOD AND THAT ALL THE CULTURES OF THE WORLD ARE RUN BY EVIL KINGS AND THE BURNING IS IN THE SPIRIT OF LUST LIFE AND THE WORD sown implies the good seeds ie souls are not even being heard 'they are not sown in fertile ground, they do not get to be heard b.c of the plagues" .
Now read on then in 24 'Wherefore hath the Lord done this unto the land? THIS DOES NOT IMPLY TO THE PHYSICAL LAND BUT TO THE PEOPLE 'LAND' as in SPIRITS, ""what meaneth the HEAT of this great anger?"

read on through b/c the men haveforseken the commandments of God preferring to serve liberalism and democracy and freedoms to enjoy sex life , perverted as in Sodom(y) and Gamorrah .

read on and you will see here in chapter 31 the mention of this SONG OF MOSES in verse 19, 21, and30.

This song of these four chapters is the basis for the entire Bible including what jesus said and what is spoken of as in the Song of Moses in Revelation.

now getting back to the sacrificing of the children through the fire, that fire is the fire of lust and the world of Devils ie that promote sin life and cause the spirits of men/women to live in termoil, confusing and subjecting each other to the whims of each others lustful desires.
And this is all finely disguised by the media OPERATIVES as you hear and see them promote the end of all movies is the women and the man kissing and that is the happiness or the love that the DEVIL IS USING TO FUEL THE FIRE OF LUST , HENCE THE FIRE OF FALSE LOVE , .................FALSE LOVE........... the love of the flesh is the reason why the mind is burnt or seared in the material carnal desires, hence born in evil and raised in evil.

the Devil rules the evil world or sin world. And it is a consuming fire based on lust.

Now this is the foundation, let me see if i can find verses in the major Prophets expressions to support this fire.

first off you have to hear the constant message that the children 'chosen ones, jews, consistently provoked God to anger with disregarding His will.
That's the first thing, They hated the moral structure preferring to enjoy consensual sex and the liberal ways of the idol cultures of the hindu's who had the habits of offering animals ie pigs, goats , cows and anything they could get their hands on to gods of stone. to this day that is still a practice. The jews, were into this and it allowed them to enjoy freedom of sex and they became expert at controlling them and sticking together as jews and they outsmarted them and used eventually by becoming the heads of state they controlled them and exploited them by using their god of the Bible.
howwever, this was not the God of Moses, but of the idols as well and their life was considered to be among the wilderness or deserts, though they were living in fruitfall lands, that provided all the necessities of life.

you have to understand that the deserts, the wilderness ans the wild were the cultures of evil , idol types who promoted liberalism and freedoms of exploits, like today.
read Jeremiah 32;27 and start there till verse 36. Now you get the picture of the rejection of the jews for the idol type of life which was considered a type of burning life again.
from verse 37 on you hear gGod promising to bring back the jews from their life amongst the democratic cultures and to a place of holiness wherein they will live unto the righteousness and live by the letter of the law in peace. Then in chapter 31 you have the mention of 'liberty' for the jews mentioned in verse 8, 15,16,17 and through these chapters you will understand why God is so upset with the jews. They were freely offereing animals to gods and eating the flesh of animals and the blood which is the orginal cause to contaminate the spirit with guilt conscience.

Once you are addicted to flesh eating and the blood you see now problem eating the flesh of your spouses and drinking thier blood in the form of sexual appetites.
Subsequently the heathens eat the blood or spirit of each other and become contaminated in the fleshly thoughts and enjoying each others bodies and hence there is the condition of thinking onself to be the physical body and not spirit as written by God.

so evil the Devils are expert at promoting idols and whether they be made of stone or the human form as in the body of a women, then they exploit the masses to worship the idols or in this case the human flesh. And thus the human flesh or idols control the minds ie spirits of man/women and they burn in the fire of lust.

hence the children were sacrificed to the gods of molech and Baal or the cultures of Devils or evil kings.

The same then as today. And today these kings are not only your presidents but the paramount boys that exploit the white and black heathens for their bodies and make them idols so the world is on fire to love and become like the idols.

Now this is not my opinion but is clearly written throughout the expression of the OT Holy Word.

That's why it is the same then as today. but even worse today as it was written so shall it be that in the latter days the Devils, Satan will exploit and abuse the world and all the lands IE PEOPLE more than in the days of Sodom and the world is on fire of evil ways.

get that picture??????????????

So , ok i'm still looking for the verses that support that the fires of evil cultures are where the jews were living and thus it said they go from one fire to the nest fire, impluyuing that when they die in sin culture or sin life they will be transmigrated to another womb in another culture of likeness and there the seed or plant will come up again as in another hell, or fire like life.

hence the continuing eternal fire of Hell burns and the souls or roots are uplifted and replanted into the cultures of deserts, and where the fire burns away.

are you hearing this yet?

Read here in jeremiah the nexr couple of chapters what i just wrote is a summary of these chapters.
 
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justified

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Well since this appears to be the extent of the discussion, it's time to respond, working backwards:
And Now you expect me to waste my time showing you how Marduk Chief God of UR and Sumer at the time of Abraham was the beginning of Human and Child Sacrifice and how all of this goes hand and hand with astrology.
In the first place, Marduk began as a local city-god of northern Sumeria. That is, he was the god of Babylon after the Akkadians had come through. As Babylon grew in prominence, so did the cult of Marduk. Ur, as you don't know, is a southern city. In the latter periods, Marduk rose to prominence as a chief god in the Babylonian Pantheon. One source you may consult on this point would be A History of the Ancient Near East by Marc van de Mieroop, p.111.

Secondly, there is absolutely no evidence for child sacrifice in Mesopotamia. As you have not provided any evidence for this, I assume you have realised it. I even, since Mesopotamian religion is not my speciality, asked a colleague who immediately told me "no way."
Astrology is more or less a feature of later Mesopotamian religion, not the earlier sort.
Jer:32:35: And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.
Alright, you are attempting first of all to say that Ba'al and Molech/Moloch are the same god. Secondly, you are basing this entirely on your wikipedia article and this particular verse. My response involves several stages: 1)Biblical Evidence 2) Biblical Criticism 3)Archaeological Evidence.

1. Biblical Evidence
The phrase you have quoted "to cause their sons and daughters..." is a very fascinating phrase. All translations are mine unless otherwise noted:
לא-ימצא בך מעביר בני-ובתו באש which means literally "do not let be found among you one who causes his son or daughter to pass through/by/in the fire." Similar expressions are found throughout the OT, especially in reference to מלך, though "l-moloch" ("to, for, against moloch") is not found here. Some of these examples are:

Leviticus 18:21 reads "and you shall not let your children (lit: seed) to pass [through?] l-moloch" But what is interesting here is that in the Greek translation, the word for "moloch" is αρχονται, which means "ruler." (See below under achaeological and summary).
Most of the occurences of the word "mlk" when pointed as something other than the word "king, royalty" is in Leviticus, ch. 20, vv.2-6 (ESV):

“Say to the people of Israel, Any one of the people of Israel or of the strangers who sojourn in Israel who gives any of his children to Molech shall surely be put to death. The people of the land shall stone him with stones. I myself will set my face against that man and will cut him off from among his people, because he has given one of his children to Molech, to make my sanctuary unclean and to profane my holy name. And if the people of the land do at all close their eyes to that man when he gives one of his children to Molech, and do not put him to death, then I will set my face against that man and against his clan and will cut them off from among their people, him and all who follow him in whoring after Molech. “If a person turns to mediums and wizards, whoring after them, I will set my face against that person and will cut him off from among his people.

I bring this particular passage out because of several reasons: 1) no mention is made of burning or sacrifice. The phrase is repeatedly "pass through l-molech." 2) once again the Greek has arkontai, "ruler." 3) It is in close proximity to divination, as in Deuteronomy 18:10-11.
The two remaining passages, except for Jer. 32:35 which was quoted above, are from the Deuternomistic history of the Kings:

Then Solomon built a high place for Chemosh the abomination of Moab, and for Molech the abomination of the Ammonites, on the mountain east of Jerusalem. (I Kings 11:7 ESV) Here the LXX doesn't use αρχοντι, it uses βασιλει and the entire sense is different: "then Solomon built a high place to Chamos the idol of Moab, and to their king, the idol of the children of Ammon."

And he desecrated 'Topheth,' which is in the valley 'ben-hinnom', that no man might make his son or his daughter to pass through the fire l-molech.
Here, finally, the LXX reads as a transliteration of the world, μολοχ.

2) Biblical Criticism
Not every one of you cares about so-called "biblical criticism." If you don't, then you might as well skip it. But it is a necessary part of the process. For those of us who have studied the languages, it is obvious that there is disagreement among different ancient translations of scripture and among even one translation (for example, the Qumran tradition and the Masoretic are both in Hebrew). So, in light of that, one may ask what conclusions can be drawn from the way the LXX translates the Hebrew.
In the first place, it's obvious that the LXX-translators didn't know what this "mlk" word was when used in reference to sacrifice. It's translated often as "ruler," otherwise as "Molok" or as "king." Most of you know that the word "moloch" comes from the west-semitic word for "king" which is מלך. But it obviously does not mean "king" in these passages, and it was not pointed as such by the Masoretic tradition. "King" is normally pointed with two short "e" vowels, "melech" whereas this word is often pointed "molech."
However, I also think that by the time the various strands of the Hebrew bible were being put together into books, child-sacrifice was so long-gone in Israelite thought that they didn't know what to make of this. This may explain why it appears with divination and is almost never written as "sacrifice."

But we still don't know what "molech" is. It is called an "abomination" but never a god, per se, nor is it given any anthropomorphic features as most gods have. To determine more, it is necessary to proceed to the

3.Archaeological Evidence
As your wikipedia article mentioned, JTF, very exciting (in archaeological terms, at least) discoveries were made at Carthage at the beginning of this century through to the 60s. The most important in terms of our discussion was the publication of the latin inscription which Albright translates: "To the holy lord Saturn, a great sacrifice of night-time, molchomor, breath for breath, blood for blood, life for life" (Yahweh and the Gods of Canaan, p.235). The inscription MLK 'MR had been found elsewhere in Punic, and it was known to mean "lamb" as in other Semitic languages. It was realised, since other Punic inscriptions have MLK 'DM ("MLK of man ['DM is "adam"]) that what was happening in the inscription to Saturn is that a lamb was replacing a human in the MLK sacrifice. Then in 1935 Eissfeldt published his article and as a result of that article Albright could write in the 80s, "There are probably few competent scholars who now believe that a god Moloch is intended in any biblical passage referring to human sacrifice" (Ibid, p.236). What is it then? The word MLK, which can mean "royal, noble, kingly" was taken as an adjective to refer to the type of sacrifice -- that is, a "noble sacrifice."

I can confirm this with Shelby Brown's book Late Carthaginian Child Sacrifice (JSOT Monograph Series, #3), Sheffield: SAP, 1999. Some pertinent quotes:
"Among urban Mediterranean peoples, the ritual of child sacrifice was confined to the Phoenicians." (p.14)
At least for the w-phoenician context, "it seems probable that the word mlk signifies "sacrifice" rather than a divine name." (p. 29).
Albright, Yahweh and the gods of Canaan, p.144 Carthaginian El = Latin Saturnus
 
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