False Converts

[FreeGrace2]

Not according to James. That's only according to you. I'm sticking with James.

By rejecting the obvious implication of 2:26, it is you that is not "sticking with James".

So, when did that dead faith die?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Anyway, back to the OP.

I think it's possible for someone to look like they are saved, yet not be saved. James is clear that a said faith is a dead faith because it's not really faith at all.

No, James NEVER said anything close to what you assume. He was clear that a believer who isn't demonstrating his faith by works has a barren or dead faith.

I think some people "become Christians" for the same reason that the be some Muslim, or Jew, or Hindu, or whatever. They see it as a religious system that they "believe in". That would fully explain the parable of the soils.

The issue in Scripture is belief. What is believed. Given all the admonitions in Scripture for obedience, it is clear that believers may not produce works.

Otherwise, all the admonitions are meaningless.

 

[Hammster]

By rejecting the obvious implication of 2:26, it is you that is not "sticking with James".

So, when did that dead faith die?

It was never alive. That's the point James is making in 14-17. He equates a said faith (imaginary faith) with dead faith. Nowhere does he say that faith dies.

 

[Hammster]

No, James NEVER said anything close to what you assume. He was clear that a believer who isn't demonstrating his faith by works has a barren or dead faith.

Verse 14 nullifies that view. It's clear he's talking about someone who only claims to believe. Or do you think the answer to his rhetorical question is "yes"?

/QUOTE]
The issue in Scripture is belief. What is believed. Given all the admonitions in Scripture for obedience, it is clear that believers may not produce works.

Otherwise, all the admonitions are meaningless.[/QUOTE]
That really has nothing to do with the OP.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It was never alive.

Then don't call it dead. Death follow live.

That's the point James is making in 14-17. He equates a said faith (imaginary faith) with dead faith. Nowhere does he say that faith dies.

There is nothing in James about an "imaginary faith". One must have quite an imagination to think so.

And by using the term "dead faith", he clearly implies that it died.

 

[Hammster]

Then don't call it dead. Death follow live.


There is nothing in James about an "imaginary faith". One must have quite an imagination to think so.

And by using the term "dead faith", he clearly implies that it died.

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? (James 2:14 ESV)

What's the answer to the questions?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Verse 14 nullifies that view. It's clear he's talking about someone who only claims to believe.

That would an opinion only. Nothing to indicate that someone is "only claiming" to believe. Everything to indicate he was talking about believers who aren't demonstrating their faith. By not demonstrating one's faith means it isn't "active". Therefore the figurative language of a "dead faith".

Or do you think the answer to his rhetorical question is "yes"?

No. The Answer is clearly "no". But James wasn't speaking of eternal salvation, as you presume.

When he begins v.14 with the question, "what good is it?", he wasn't speaking in the sense of eternal salvation, but good for rescuing or delivering the believer from something. That is the issue. He doesn't spell out what the believer needs to be rescued or delivered from, but from the context, it is quite clear (v.15,16) that the charge of hypocrisy is in view. When believers behave as v.15 and 16 illustrate, they are being quite hypocritical. So, believers who don't demonstrate their faith are hypocrites. Not that they aren't saved.

The issue in Scripture is belief. What is believed. Given all the admonitions in Scripture for obedience, it is clear that believers may not produce works.

Otherwise, all the admonitions are meaningless.

That really has nothing to do with the OP.

Sure. Ignore the issue. And the admonitions HAVE EVERYTHING to do with Christian living, which is the point of the book of James. Practical Christian living.

From my Rainbow Study Bible on the content of James:
"To merely say we have faith is insufficient. (unfortunately, there no clarity as to being "insufficient" for) James stresses that we must have faith that manifests itself in the action of good deeds. (as v.15,16,18 clearly indicate). His letter covers a wide range of sins: pride, prejudice, HYPOCRISY, worldliness, the untamed tongue and apathy. This PRACTICAL TREATISE gives the scattered Jewish Christians a strong understanding of their union in Christ."

Now, I've exegeted much of James 2, and all you've done is disagree, with no explanation or exegesis at all. And you've not even attempted to refute my points.

There is no support for your view, regardless of how many confused believers agree with it.

The fact that James is a practical treatise shows that he was not concerned about the Jewish believers' salvation, but their lifestyle, and to avoid such sins as pride, prejudice, hypocrisy, worldliness, an untamed tongue, and apathy.

Practical Christian living has nothing to do with getting saved. It's about what should happen after we get saved.

btw, simply quoting back 2:14-17 isn't a refutation. You've dismissed 2:16 entirely, and without reason. And 2:18 is James' point in a nutshell. The question is how can a believer show their faith apart from works. It can't be done, is James' point.

 

[Hammster]

That would an opinion only. Nothing to indicate that someone is "only claiming" to believe. Everything to indicate he was talking about believers who aren't demonstrating their faith. By not demonstrating one's faith means it isn't "active". Therefore the figurative language of a "dead faith".


No. The Answer is clearly "no". But James wasn't speaking of eternal salvation, as you presume.

When he begins v.14 with the question, "what good is it?", he wasn't speaking in the sense of eternal salvation, but good for rescuing or delivering the believer from something. That is the issue. He doesn't spell out what the believer needs to be rescued or delivered from, but from the context, it is quite clear (v.15,16) that the charge of hypocrisy is in view. When believers behave as v.15 and 16 illustrate, they are being quite hypocritical. So, believers who don't demonstrate their faith are hypocrites. Not that they aren't saved.


Sure. Ignore the issue. And the admonitions HAVE EVERYTHING to do with Christian living, which is the point of the book of James. Practical Christian living.

From my Rainbow Study Bible on the content of James:
"To merely say we have faith is insufficient. (unfortunately, there no clarity as to being "insufficient" for) James stresses that we must have faith that manifests itself in the action of good deeds. (as v.15,16,18 clearly indicate). His letter covers a wide range of sins: pride, prejudice, HYPOCRISY, worldliness, the untamed tongue and apathy. This PRACTICAL TREATISE gives the scattered Jewish Christians a strong understanding of their union in Christ."

Now, I've exegeted much of James 2, and all you've done is disagree, with no explanation or exegesis at all. And you've not even attempted to refute my points.

There is no support for your view, regardless of how many confused believers agree with it.

The fact that James is a practical treatise shows that he was not concerned about the Jewish believers' salvation, but their lifestyle, and to avoid such sins as pride, prejudice, hypocrisy, worldliness, an untamed tongue, and apathy.

Practical Christian living has nothing to do with getting saved. It's about what should happen after we get saved.

btw, simply quoting back 2:14-17 isn't a refutation. You've dismissed 2:16 entirely, and without reason. And 2:18 is James' point in a nutshell. The question is how can a believer show their faith apart from works. It can't be done, is James' point.

Alright. You're so far off base that there's no point in repeating myself.

And the thread isn't about James 2, but about false converts (hence the thread title). Not sure if you've chimed in on that or not.

 

[DeaconDean]

This is the English equivalent:
“For I see that you are in the gall of bitterness and in the bondage of iniquity.”

I don't see any words that SAYS he "was never saved to begin with".

If you begin at the beginning, the Bible SAYS this:
12 But when they believed Philip preaching the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were being baptized, men and women alike. 13 Even Simon himself believed; and after being baptized, he continued on with Philip, and as he observed signs and great miracles taking place, he was constantly amazed.

In that context, Simon believed what the other people believed. No doubt.

The Bible does not say that he believed something different than the others. But he was full of bitterness and in bondage to sin.

Why do you think that equates to not being saved? Apparently what one believes isn't really the issue, huh.

Consider Paul's words regarding bondage to sin:

Romans 6:12
Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,
Romans 6:13
and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
Romans 6:14
For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
Romans 6:15
What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
Romans 6:16
Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

v.12 is a command to believers to NOT LET sin rule in our bodies. Simon disobeyed that command. As well as the command in v.13.

What Simon did was to "present himself as a slave of sin". (v.16)

There is nothing in Acts 8 to conclude that he wasn't saved. He was a sinning believer, who needed to repent of his sins. 8:22

First, at the time, saved individuals, would receive the Holy Spirit as evidenced by "speaking in tongues.

That is not present in the passage of Simon Magus.

Two, In Psalm 32:5, the psalmist says, “I acknowledged my sin to you and did not cover up my iniquity. I said, ‘I will confess my transgressions to the LORD.’” In this one verse, “sin,” “iniquity,” and “transgression” are all mentioned. Basically, the three words communicate the same idea: evil and lawlessness, as defined by God (see 1 John 3:4). However, upon closer examination, each word also carries a slightly different meaning.

The word sin and its cognates are used 786 times in the New International Version of the Bible. Sin means “to miss the mark.” It can refer to doing something against God or against a person (Exodus 10:16), doing the opposite of what is right (Galatians 5:17), doing something that will have negative results (Proverbs 24:33–34), and failing to do something you know is right (James 4:17). In the Old Testament, God even instituted sacrifices for unintentional sins (Numbers 15:27). Sin is the general term for anything that “falls short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23).​

Sin leads to a downward progression that, without the restoring power of the Holy Spirit, we all tend toward. The sin nature is present in every human being born since the Fall of Adam (Genesis 3:6–7; Romans 5:12). If left unchecked, continual sin leads to a “reprobate mind,” spoken of in Romans 1:24. Our sin nature causes us to gravitate naturally toward selfishness, envy, and pride, even when we are trying to do good. The apostle Paul alluded to his propensity to sin when he wrote, “For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.” (Romans 7:18).​

The sin nature leads to trespassing. A trespasser is someone who crosses a line or climbs a fence that he should not cross or climb. A trespass may be intentional or unintentional. Trespass can also mean “to fall away after being close beside.” Peter trespassed when he denied Jesus (Luke 22:34, 56–62). We all “cross the line” in thought, word, or attitude many times a day and should be quick to forgive others who do the same (Matthew 6:15).​

Iniquity is more deeply rooted. Iniquity means “premeditated choice, continuing without repentance.” David’s sin with Bathsheba that led to the killing of her husband, Uriah, was iniquity (2 Samuel 11:3–4; 2 Samuel 12:9). Micah 2:1 says, “Woe to those who plan iniquity, to those who plot evil on their beds! At morning’s light they carry it out because it is in their power to do it.” In David’s psalm of repentance, he cries out to God, saying, “Wash away all my iniquity and cleanse me from my sin” (Psalm 51:2).


Can somebody be saved that is in bondage to iniquity?

According to FreeGrace2, yes.
​

You have your point if view, I have mine.

And fortunately, according to the Greek and the scriptures, mine is correct.

God Bless

Till all are one.​

​

 

[DeaconDean]

Simon Magus was in the bondage of inquity.

Isaiah said:

"your iniquities have separated between you and your God" -Isa. 59:2 (KJV)

Peter knew this.

Galatians 5:1 says:

"Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage."

Peter knew Simon had not had his bondage broken yet.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Alright. You're so far off base that there's no point in repeating myself.

There's no point in repeating yourself because all you've done is repeat v.14 with absolutely NO exegesis or explanation of how that verse relates to any other verse.

And the thread isn't about James 2, but about false converts (hence the thread title). Not sure if you've chimed in on that or not.

Is this a hint that you don't have any defense for your view of James 2, and you know it, so you'd now rather shift back to the OP?

Sure. Whatever you want.

 

[FreeGrace2]

First, at the time, saved individuals, would receive the Holy Spirit as evidenced by "speaking in tongues.

That is not present in the passage of Simon Magus.

Irrelevant, since there is also no mention of the "men and women" who believed and were baptized at the same time as Simon.

Can somebody be saved that is in bondage to iniquity?

According to FreeGrace2, yes.
[/LEFT]
[/LEFT][/QUOTE]
According to Paul, who told the Romans in ch 6 that they are slaves to whom they present themselves (v.16). I dealt with that chapter and you ignored all of it. Please interact with what I presented.

You have your point if view, I have mine.

My POV is based on what Scripture SAYS.

 

[stan1953]

So you don't believe that there's such a thing as false converts?

I've already answered that.

 

[Hammster]

I've already answered that.

Okay. Could you refresh my memory?

 

[stan1953]

Okay. Could you refresh my memory?

Don't need to, you know what I said.
Your style could use a bit of refreshing though...as this has gotten very old very quickly.

 

[Hammster]

Don't need to, you know what I said.
Your style could use a bit of refreshing though...as this has gotten very old very quickly.

I honestly don't remember. But okay. Have a blessed day.

 

[Hammster]

There's no point in repeating yourself because all you've done is repeat v.14 with absolutely NO exegesis or explanation of how that verse relates to any other verse.

I have, actually. If you need me to, I can do so again. I know I forget what gets said from time to time.

Is this a hint that you don't have any defense for your view of James 2, and you know it, so you'd now rather shift back to the OP?

Sure. Whatever you want.

No hint. I just did to see the need to repeat myself, especially since this isn't what the thread is about.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I have, actually. If you need me to, I can do so again. I know I forget what gets said from time to time.

Please take my points individually and address why they are wrong, then.

 

[Hammster]

There's no point in repeating yourself because all you've done is repeat v.14 with absolutely NO exegesis or explanation of how that verse relates to any other verse.


Is this a hint that you don't have any defense for your view of James 2, and you know it, so you'd now rather shift back to the OP?

Sure. Whatever you want.

Please take my points individually and address why they are wrong, then.

That I did do. I explained that you are reading it backwards, and instead of making assumptions about v 26 and reading the rest into it, you really should start with the rhetorical questions in v 14 and go from there. If the answer to those questions is no, then what he's saying is that someone just claiming to have faith has no faith at all that will save.

 

[FreeGrace2]

That I did do. I explained that you are reading it backwards, and instead of making assumptions about v 26 and reading the rest into it, you really should start with the rhetorical questions in v 14 and go from there. If the answer to those questions is no, then what he's saying is that someone just claiming to have faith has no faith at all that will save.

This is no refutation at all. Just offering your opinion.

As to "assuming", your view does that by the phrase "then what he's (James) is saying is that someone just claiming to have faith. James makes NO inference to what people CLAIM or SAY. His point is about what people believe.

2:18 proves that by the non rhetorical request: "show me your faith without works, and I will show you my faith by what I do."

Please tell me in your own words what v.18 is communicating.