Falling Away Contradiction?

[GenemZ]

In regards to the ones warned of a no way back sin. They were Hebrews, and maybe some Grecian Jews who had left behind the Pharisees, Sadducees and Moses law with animal sacrifices. They had not practiced Moses' law for decades. Younger ones maybe seven years. And they were persecuted by the Pharisees, and pressed to return to their authority. If they did they would be agreeing with Caiaphas and his company, that killing Jesus was right. So as in Hebrews 6, they would be crucifying Christ all over again.

Just sacrificing animals would not be the unpardonable sin.

They would have been covered and filled with Jesus' sacred blood many times. They would know it well. So important for us who know this not to go back to scattering and for them to do so would be have been blasphemy.

Paul even got caught up in the apostasy of the Jerusalem church. Its why he was arrested in the Temple and taken in chains by Rome. You ever read the account where James convinced Paul to go and pay for a Temple ritual that ended with and expensive sacrifice in order to win over the Jews? ?

Acts 21

20 When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul:
“You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed,
and all of them are zealous for the law. 21 They have been informed
that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away
from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according
to our customs. 22 What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you
have come, 23 so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who
have made a vow. 24 Take these men, join in their purification rites
and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then
everyone will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but
that you yourself are living in obedience to the law."​

That vow Paul and the others made took days to complete. It was to end with an expensive calf sacrifice.

Paul came within an inch of being murdered by the Jews in the Temple.
God saved him by delivering him into the hands of the Roman authority.. Paul then repented and lived.
God's mercy is God letting you live to not do it again.

 

[GenemZ]

In regards to the ones warned of a no way back sin. They were Hebrews, and maybe some Grecian Jews who had left behind the Pharisees, Sadducees and Moses law with animal sacrifices. They had not practiced Moses' law for decades. Younger ones maybe seven years. And they were persecuted by the Pharisees, and pressed to return to their authority. If they did they would be agreeing with Caiaphas and his company, that killing Jesus was right. So as in Hebrews 6, they would be crucifying Christ all over again.

Just sacrificing animals would not be the unpardonable sin.

It was mocking the Cross of Christ. God had Titus come in and trample Jerusalem in 70AD. Millions were killed and many taken into slavery. Then? No more animal sacrifices in the Temple were to be had. Its was a terrible sin. Hebrews was written as a warning to the Jews just a short while before Jerusalem was destroyed. What more does one need to know?

 

[Der Alte]

You're resisting truth. And, you are saved. The Jewish believers in Jerusalem were clinging to their old ways. We see that with Christians in many ways. They are still saved, but not walking in truth. It was the frustration Luther faced when he saw those who believed, yet clung to Catholicism after hearing the truth.

This is true up to a point. That is why Paul wrote.

2 Timothy 3:16-17
(16) All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
(17) so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.​

Hebrew was written primarily to Jews but also for us.

 

[GenemZ]

This true up to a point. That is why Paul wrote.

2 Timothy 3:16-17
(16) All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
(17) so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.​

Hebrews was written primarily to Jews but also for us.

Yes... also for us. To show us how blind some believers can become when they are unwilling to stop being religious in their mind set. The Jerusalem church had their unique set of "stubbornness targets." Yet, some today do the same thing with things like needing water baptism, or partaking of the elements to be saved.

To try to get them to repent would be like trying to get those religious Jews in Hebrews (who were believers in Christ) to change their thinking about the Law (repentance). We are told it would have been impossible at that point.

We should understand that today we too have believers whom it would be impossible to break them of their religious delusion. Its for us to know. So we can know when we should leave them be, and continue ourselves to grow in grace and knowledge as to become servants pleasing unto the Lord.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Paul even got caught up in the apostasy of the Jerusalem church. Its why he was arrested in the Temple and taken in chains by Rome. You ever read the account where James convinced Paul to go and pay for a Temple ritual that ended with and expensive sacrifice in order to win over the Jews? ?

Acts 21

20 When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul:
“You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed,
and all of them are zealous for the law. 21 They have been informed
that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away
from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according
to our customs. 22 What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you
have come, 23 so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who
have made a vow. 24 Take these men, join in their purification rites
and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then
everyone will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but
that you yourself are living in obedience to the law."​

That vow Paul and the others made took days to complete. It was to end with an expensive calf sacrifice.

Paul came within an inch of being murdered by the Jews in the Temple.
God saved him by delivering him into the hands of the Roman authority.. Paul then repented and lived.
God's mercy is God letting you live to not do it again.

I think Paul used the method of being all things to all people. With Jews he was a Jew, with gentiles he was a gentile.

 

[GenemZ]

I think Paul used the method of being all things to all people. With Jews he was a Jew, with gentiles he was a gentile.

You are confusing Jewish culture with the Law of Moses which ran contrary to the Cross of Christ once the Cross was finished. We do not offer animal sacrifices anymore for when we sin. To do so is to nullify the Blood of Christ.

But, if Paul were invited to a Jewish household... he would keep kosher under their roof and celebrate Jewish things which were cultural. He would even obey the Sabbath day if he were visiting while the Sabbath took place. But, he would not offer an animal in the Temple for something the Cross was the fulfillment for. It would be a false witness against the Cross of Christ!

"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have
fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus,
his Son, purifies us from all sin. (not animals sacrifices)


If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and
purify us from all unrighteousness." 1 Jn 1:7-9​

Paul blasphemed the blood of Jesus by returning to the Temple sacrifices. Later he quickly repented... But, was taken into chains to Rome as the consequence for his temporary blasphemy.

He of all people should have known better.

It would have been like Paul fornicating in a pagan temple to be all things to all men. There is a point where Paul would not enter while being all things to all men. Same applies to us.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

I am sure Paul could feign blood sacrifice without inside blaspheming Christ's blood and without permanently assuring the observer the practice was always necessary.

 

[GenemZ]

I am sure Paul could feign blood sacrifice without inside blaspheming Christ's blood and without permanently assuring the observer the practice was always necessary.

I do not think you know what you are talking about...... I really don't. Do you?

How does one feign blood sacrifice?

There is no sense in what you are saying.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

I do not think you know what you are talking about...... I really don't. Do you?

How does one feign blood sacrifice?

There is no sense in what you are saying.

Paul would go through the motions of being a Jew right up to sacrificing a lamb. In such a way that he could later explain the sacrificing is not really needed. He was self described as crafty.

2Co 12:15 I will most gladly spend and be spent for your souls. If I love you more, am I to be loved less?
2Co 12:16 But granting that I myself did not burden you, I was crafty, you say, and got the better of you by deceit.

 

[GenemZ]

Paul would go through the motions of being a Jew right up to sacrificing a lamb. In such a way that he could later explain the sacrificing is not really needed. He was self described as crafty.

That would be like robbing a bank with agreement to God you will tithe 10%.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

That would be like robbing a bank with agreement to God you will tithe 10%.

By doing this Paul recovers the lost rather than stealing from them or God.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

2Co 12:15 I will most gladly spend and be spent for your souls. If I love you more, am I to be loved less?
2Co 12:16 But granting that I myself did not burden you, I was crafty, you say, and got the better of you by deceit.
2Co 12:17 Did I take advantage of you through any of those whom I sent to you?

 

[GenemZ]

By doing this Paul recovers the lost rather than stealing from them or God.

If you read the account you will see Paul hoping and trying to win them over (like you said) as they turned on him and he came within an inch of being murdered. Only to be saved by a Roman garrison dispatched to break up the riot.

God was terribly displeased with Paul's apostasy. Its the very same apostasy that got the Jerusalem church demolished in 70AD.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

If you read the account you will see Paul hoping and trying to win them over (like you said) as they turned on him and he came within an inch of being murdered. Only to be saved by a Roman garrison dispatched to break up the riot.

God was terribly displeased with Paul's apostasy. Its the very same apostasy that got the Jerusalem church demolished in 70AD.

I don't think God would punish Paul like that. I think it was Satan controlling some of the Jews, and this was the beginning of Paul's end, as prophesied before he left for Jerusalem. They pleaded with him not to go, but he did. Acts 21:10-15.

 

[GenemZ]

I don't think God would punish Paul like that. I think it was Satan controlling some of the Jews, and this was the beginning of Paul's end, as prophesied before he left for Jerusalem. They pleaded with him not to go, but he did. Acts 21:10-15.

God punishes all whom he receives as a son. If you understood the fallen nature of man and how deceivable we all are without sound understanding of the Word of God? You would know why.


You consistently show that you have no frame of reference other than how you feel about a matter. Probably you need to find a good Bible teacher. One who will not spare your emotions when it comes to compromising with the Truth.

That is why Jesus said...

“Whoever wants to be my disciple must say no to themselves.
They must pick up their cross and follow me." ​

If you are to truly follow Christ? Your feelings and opinion on a matter do not count when they run contrary to the Word. Otherwise, you will be forcing Jesus into becoming in your image, rather than the way it should be. He needs to change our thinking.

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord."​

No one can follow those passages unless they know beyond a doubt that Jesus is real in their life. Not simply, hope he is. And, then find an excellent Bible teacher if you can be so blessed. But, He will deny no one of the Truth if its the Truth they truly seek, and not simply a justification for how they feel on a matter.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

God punishes all whom he receives as a son. If you understood the fallen nature of man and how deceivable we all are without sound understanding of the Word of God? You would know why.


You consistently show that you have no frame of reference other than how you feel about a matter. Probably you need to find a good Bible teacher. One who will not spare your emotions when it comes to compromising with the Truth.

That is why Jesus said...

“Whoever wants to be my disciple must say no to themselves.
They must pick up their cross and follow me." ​

If you are to truly follow Christ? Your feelings and opinion on a matter do not count when they run contrary to the Word. Otherwise, you will be forcing Jesus into becoming in your image, rather than the way it should be. He needs to change our thinking.

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord."​

No one can follow those passages unless they know beyond a doubt that Jesus is real in their life. Not simply, hope he is. And, then find an excellent Bible teacher if you can be so blessed. But, He will deny no one of the Truth if its the Truth they truly seek, and not simply a justification for how they feel on a matter.

My quote from Acts made me sure of Paul from 1994. Paul to me was a villain who became a hero of the faith, who as it is written was one we could step into the sandals of in order to step into Jesus' sandals of his ways. Paul was strong and constant in love and obedience and could rightly boast, I would have you as I am except for these chains. And Paul wrote strongly faultless truth in his letters.

 

[GenemZ]

My quote from Acts made me sure of Paul from 1994. Paul to me was a villain who became a hero of the faith, who as it is written was one we could step into the sandals of in order to step into Jesus' sandals of his ways. Paul was strong and constant in love and obedience and could rightly boast, I would have you as I am except for these chains. And Paul wrote strongly faultless truth in his letters.

Where are you going?

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Where are you going?

Long ago I read Acts, and see Paul as elite rather than floundering and being punished by God. He was a man who after persecuting the church early in Acts, was called and commissioned and had to work extra hard to make up for his sins, and did. Like he did the work of two men, by God's grace.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

If a Hebrew Christian under Peter the apostle, tried sacrificing a lamb, despite receiving Jesus' sacred blood, but did not agree with the killing of Jesus, and did not reject the blood of Jesus or the Holy Spirit, that would not be the unpardonable sin of Hebrews 6:6.

 

[GenemZ]

If a Hebrew Christian under Peter the apostle, tried sacrificing a lamb, despite receiving Jesus' sacred blood, but did not agree with the killing of Jesus, and did not reject the blood of Jesus or the Holy Spirit, that would not be the unpardonable sin of Hebrews 6:6.

Why do it, when its much better to teach and explain what the animal sacrifices were pointing to as a simple teaching tool?

Better yet? Peter stopped offering sacrifices.

Someone asked Peter. "Peter, I noticed you no longer offer sacrifices in the Temple. Why is that? Have you stopped sinning?"

(Then, Peter could teach in detail about the Cross of Christ as found in the sacrifices, so they can begin to understand it!)