Falling Away Contradiction?

[LoveGodsWord]

How does one reconcile Hebrews 6 (If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame) with 2 Timothy 13 (If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.)

Hi brother Robert,

There is no contradiction of the scriptures here. HEBREWS 6:4-8 is talking about those who once have known God's Word and deny God's word by falling away from the truth, no longer believing and following it.

While reading the context of 2 Timothy we read...

2 TIMOTHY 11-13
[11], Faithful is the saying: For if we died with him, we shall also live with him:
[12], if we endure, we shall also reign with him: if we shall deny him, he also will deny us:
[13], if we are faithless, he abideth faithful; for he cannot deny himself.

HEBREWS 6:4-6 is talking about those who were born again christians who ones knew God's Word and deny it and fall away from believing and following it...

HEBREWS 6:4-8
[4], For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[5], And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[6], If they shall fall away, to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
[7], For the earth which drinks in the rain that comes oft on it, and brings forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receives blessing from God:
[8], But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected, and is near to cursing; whose end is to be burned.

2 TIMOTHY states if we deny God's Word then he will deny us v12. As stated in v13 Jesus is stating if we do not believe he still remains faithful to His Word. It is those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's Word that he remains faithful to not those who do not believe and deny him. Whatsoever is not of faith is sin *ROMANS 14:23. Sin will keep all those who knowingly practice it out of God's Kingdom because those doing so reject the gift of God's dear son (His Word) *ROMANS 6:23

God bless.

 

[rjs330]

The genuinely converted believer would find willful sin very hard work, in the same way that an unconverted sinner would find Christian things a burden and a duty that he would have to work at.

The sinner would have the forces of hell against him as he seeks the Lord and moves toward receiving Christ. It is a spiritual battle for him. Conversely, the genuine believer, who has the indwelling Holy Spirit would have the Spirit holding him back and fighting within him to prevent him going into habitual sin.

For a religious person to ultimately deny Christ and fall into the judgment that the Apostle to the Hebrews writes about, he would have to engage into a protracted battle with the Holy Spirit, set his face like flight against the Lord, throw the Lord's love back in His face, and persist in sin until the Lord is forced to give up on him. It just doesn't happen overnight.

Most of the posts I have seen on CF with godly believers struggling with their faith and sinful habit patterns are crying out for help, not hardening their hearts against the Lord at all.

I agree! Thank the Lord he is patient with us! It takes a lot of willful continued rebellion. I'm truly grateful for the grace of my Father!

It's difficult but not impossible.

 

[Ron Gurley]

The many clear verses supporting the doctrine of eternal security of the believer's salvation far outweigh a few questionable verses to the contrary.

God is not an Indian Giver! OSAS!

 

[LoveGodsWord]

The many clear verses supporting the doctrine of eternal security of the believer's salvation far outweigh a few questionable verses to the contrary.
God is not an Indian Giver! OSAS!

OSAS is a false teaching. We are only saved as we continue to BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's Word in the present tense. Those who fall away from BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's Word in the present tense are no longer believing and following God's Word therefore do not have salvation because they have not endured temptation to the end. It is only those who endure to the end that receive God's promises.

God bless

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

How does one reconcile Hebrews 6 (If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame) with 2 Timothy 13 (If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.)

On the two verses, the second is true, and even someone who has committed the sin in Hebrews 6 is loved by God and provided for. The sun shines on them and it rains, they eat... but in the end, they can never repent again, and only become more sinful over time.

The church in Israel had a magnificent start, they had all of the Holy Spirit gifts and powers. Every reach of God to the sinners. And the Pharisees had altered Judaism to hold that Jesus was a blasphemer and the right thing to do was kill him. The Hebrew Christians were compelled under threat to agree. So if they turned back to the Pharisees' Judaism, they left the Holy Spirit, and agreed to kill Jesus.

When so rejecting the Spirit sent by Jesus at Pentecost, to kill, and every avenue to bring them to repent was taken, every grace, everything tasted... all of what comes by faith for salvation is like a broken circuit, a smashed pipe. There is nothing more God can do.

 

[GenemZ]

How does one reconcile Hebrews 6 (If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame) with 2 Timothy 13 (If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.)

"Hebrews" was audience specific when written. It was written to the Jewish believers in Jerusalem just shortly before Titus destroyed the Temple and the city in 70 AD. It was not written to Gentile believers.

What was going on that caused chapter 6 to be written?

4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened,
who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the
Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of
God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen
away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they
are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting
him to public disgrace."

To keep it short. Many Jewish in Jerusalem believers were still following the Law of Moses. They were still going to the Temple and offering animal sacrifices for their sins. In doing so? They were "crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace."

They were refusing truth and were denying that the Cross paid for their sins. These Jews believed in the Lord. Only because they saw Jesus come back to life. But, in their religious blindness they refused to accept the teaching on the atonement of the Cross. In doing so, they became like certain religious Catholics we see today who follow all the church rules that deny the grace of God and the completeness of the atonement.

Just like its impossible to bring a highly religious Catholic who is stuck in his thinking to repent? They are the equivalent of what the Jewish believers were doing back then. Both are saved. But its impossible to bring them back to changing their minds (repentance) when religion is their all powerful desire.

 

[GenemZ]

We are only saved as we continue to BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's Word in the present tense.

Then you were never saved to begin with. How are you saved if you are yet to be saved?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Then you were never saved to begin with. How are you saved if you are yet to be saved?

Hello brother genez, nice to meet you here

You may need to re-read what was written earlier. God's Word says only those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD in the "Present Tense" of the word meaning and ENDURE to the END believing and following God's Word in the "present tense" have salvation.

All those who fall away from God's Word and no longer believe and follow God's Word are unbelievers because they no longer believe and follow God's Word. God's promise of eternal life is only to all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD to the end. Salvation always applies to all those who are BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD in the present tense of application.

God bless

 

[Romansthruphilemon]

How does one reconcile Hebrews 6 (If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame) with 2 Timothy 13 (If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.)

Don’t reconcile it, rightly divide it (2 Timothy 2:15)

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Don’t reconcile it, rightly divide it (2 Timothy 2:15)

Are you serious brother claiming that the book of Hebrews is not written for us today?

Your not rightly dividing it brother. Turn away from the teachings of men. Seek Jesus through his Word.

2 TIMOTHY 3:16 ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

God bless

 

[Der Alte]

begin

<GZ>"Hebrews" was audience specific when written. It was written to the Jewish believers in Jerusalem just shortly before Titus destroyed the Temple and the city in 70 AD. It was not written to Gentile believers.
What was going on that caused chapter 6 to be written?
4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened,
who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the
Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of
God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen
away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they
are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting
him to public disgrace."
To keep it short. Many Jewish in Jerusalem believers were still following the Law of Moses. They were still going to the Temple and offering animal sacrifices for their sins. In doing so? They were "crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace."
They were refusing truth and were denying that the Cross paid for their sins. These Jews believed in the Lord. Only because they saw Jesus come back to life. But, in their religious blindness they refused to accept the teaching on the atonement of the Cross. In doing so, they became like certain religious Catholics we see today who follow all the church rules that deny the grace of God and the completeness of the atonement.
Just like its impossible to bring a highly religious Catholic who is stuck in his thinking to repent? They are the equivalent of what the Jewish believers were doing back then. Both are saved. But its impossible to bring them back to changing their minds (repentance) when religion is their all powerful desire.<GZ>

end

Let us say for the sake of argument that the first sentence is correct, what difference does it make? If gentile believers do something similar will not the same caveat apply to them?

It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace."​

Or do you believe that gentiles have some kind of immunity?

2 Timothy 3:16-17 (16) All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
(17) so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. ​

 

[GenemZ]

Hello brother genez, nice to meet you here

You may need to re-read what was written earlier. God's Word says only those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD in the "Present Tense" of the word meaning and ENDURE to the END believing and following God's Word in the "present tense" have salvation.

Those words were said to Jews. According to their understanding of Scripture.

It does not pertain to church. Its about those who endure to the end of the seven year Tribulation.

Jesus was mum about the surprise that was to come on the day of Pentecost. He was speaking to Jews who understood prophesy about the Millennium (the kingdom they kept asking him about) and the tribulation that would take place just prior. Those who endure to the end of the Tribulation will be delivered (saved) and enter into the kingdom of God in the new heavens and new earth that the Jews knew about from Isaiah.

 

[GenemZ]

<GZ>"Hebrews" was audience specific when written. It was written to the Jewish believers in Jerusalem just shortly before Titus destroyed the Temple and the city in 70 AD. It was not written to Gentile believers.
What was going on that caused chapter 6 to be written?
4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened,
who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the
Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of
God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen
away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they
are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting
him to public disgrace."
To keep it short. Many Jewish in Jerusalem believers were still following the Law of Moses. They were still going to the Temple and offering animal sacrifices for their sins. In doing so? They were "crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace."
They were refusing truth and were denying that the Cross paid for their sins. These Jews believed in the Lord. Only because they saw Jesus come back to life. But, in their religious blindness they refused to accept the teaching on the atonement of the Cross. In doing so, they became like certain religious Catholics we see today who follow all the church rules that deny the grace of God and the completeness of the atonement.
Just like its impossible to bring a highly religious Catholic who is stuck in his thinking to repent? They are the equivalent of what the Jewish believers were doing back then. Both are saved. But its impossible to bring them back to changing their minds (repentance) when religion is their all powerful desire.<GZ>
Let us say for the sake of argument that the first sentence is correct, what difference does it make? If gentile believers do something similar will not the same caveat apply to them?

It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace."​

Or do you believe that gentiles have some kind of immunity?

2 Timothy 3:16-17 (16) All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
(17) so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. ​

Its not talking about losing salvation. Its talking about someone who is so hardened by apostasy that it becomes impossible to bring them back to repentance. The Jewish church was performing animal sacrifices which was crucifying Jesus a fresh. They were disgracing the Cross of Christ. God will not be mocked. They suffered the sin unto death. But, they did not lose their salvation.

"If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to
death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those
whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death.
I am not saying that you should pray about that." 1 John 3:15

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Those words were said to Jews. According to their understanding of Scripture.

Brother have a look at what your posting. According to God's Word in the NEW COVENANT...

2 TIMOTHY 3:16 ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

Yet your teaching that ALL scriptures is not given by inspiration of God and is not profitable for doctrine for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

Do you not believe the book of HEBREWS is scripture? If you answer it is scripture then ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

According to God's Word in the NEW COVENANT who is a JEW today?

ROMANS 2:28-29
[28], For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:[29], But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

This is only posted in love and as a help to you brother....

 

[GenemZ]

Brother have a look at what your posting. According to God's Word in the NEW COVENANT...

2 TIMOTHY 3:16 ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

Yet your teaching that ALL scriptures is not given by inspiration of God and is not profitable for doctrine for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

Do you not believe the book of HEBREWS is scripture? If you answer it is scripture then ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

According to God's Word in the NEW COVENANT who is a JEW today?

ROMANS 2:28-29
[28], For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:[29], But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

This is only posted in love and as a help to you brother....

You have no idea what I was saying... That's fine. Believe as you please.

 

[Der Alte]

Its not talking about losing salvation. Its talking about someone who is so hardened by apostasy that it becomes impossible to bring them back to repentance. The Jewish church was performing animal sacrifices which was crucifying Jesus a fresh. They were disgracing the Cross of Christ. God will not be mocked. They suffered the sin unto death. But, they did not lose their salvation.

People can only apostatize if they are first saved. They can't come back to repentance unless they have first repented. One can't come back to something they never had. Former pagan Christians could do the same kind of things as Jews i.e. go back to worshiping and sacrificing to their pagan gods etc. If they are in a condition where it is necessary to bring them back to repentance, which is impossible, they have lost their salvation.

 

[GenemZ]

People can only apostatize if they are first saved. They can't come back to repentance unless they have first repented. One can't come back to something they never had. Former pagan Christians could do the same kind of things as Jews i.e. go back to worshiping and sacrificing to their pagan gods etc. If they are in a condition where it is necessary to bring them back to repentance, which is impossible, they have lost their salvation.

Thanks for your side bar.

The book of Hebrews was written originally to "Hebrews." It was what I said it was.

If they are in a condition where it is necessary to bring them back to repentance, which is impossible, they have lost their salvation..

Repentance simply meant to 'change ones mind.' It can be used in entering into salvation when someone had been resisting truth up until that point in time. But, I also realize religion has corrupted the word to now have only one meaning in certain circles.


The following was written to believers who needed to change their minds about the old rituals they had followed prior to salvation. These believers were told they needed to 'repent' (change their thinking) in regards to no longer continuing in doing dead works.

"Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles
of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the
foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith
toward God." (Heb 6:1

 

[Der Alte]

begin

<GZ>Thanks for your side bar.
The book of Hebrews was written originally to "Hebrews." It was what I said it was.
Repentance simply meant to 'change ones mind.' It can be used in entering into salvation when someone had been resisting truth up until that point in time.<GZ>

end

Hebrews is certainly not talking to someone "entering into salvation when someone had been resisting truth up until that point in time."
As it relates to faith "repentance" only has one meaning. Did you not even read your own proof text. Who does this passage refer to, what had they fallen away from and what were they "brought back to?" It is right there in the passage.

Hebrews 6:4-6
(4) It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit,
(5) who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age
(6) and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.​

They had "been enlightened,""tasted the heavenly gift,""shared in the Holy Spirit,""tasted the goodness of the word of God,""powers of the coming age" and "fallen away"
They aren't "entering into salvation""had been resisting truth up until that point in time"

begin

<GZ>But, I also realize religion has corrupted the word to now have only one meaning in certain circles.
The following was written to believers who needed to change their minds about the old rituals they had followed prior to salvation. These believers were told they needed to 'repent' (change their thinking) in regards to no longer continuing in doing dead works.
"Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles
of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the
foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith
toward God." (Heb 6:1<GZ>

end

Thank you for your side bar, repeating something over and over and over does not make it any more valid.
As with most heterodox groups one can make the scripture say almost anything they want it to selectively quoting verses out-of-context.

 

[GenemZ]

Hebrews is certainly not talking to someone "entering into salvation when someone had been resisting truth up until that point in time."

You're resisting truth. And, you are saved. The Jewish believers in Jerusalem were clinging to their old ways. We see that with Christians in many ways. They are still saved, but not walking in truth. It was the frustration Luther faced when he saw those who believed, yet clung to Catholicism after hearing the truth.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

You're resisting truth. And, you are saved. The Jewish believers in Jerusalem were clinging to their old ways. We see that with Christians in many ways. They are still saved, but not walking in truth. It was the frustration Luther faced when he saw those who believed, yet clung to Catholicism after hearing the truth.

In regards to the ones warned of a no way back sin. They were Hebrews, and maybe some Grecian Jews who had left behind the Pharisees, Sadducees and Moses law with animal sacrifices. They had not practiced Moses' law for decades. Younger ones maybe seven years. And they were persecuted by the Pharisees, and pressed to return to their authority. If they did they would be agreeing with Caiaphas and his company, that killing Jesus was right. So as in Hebrews 6, they would be crucifying Christ all over again.

Just sacrificing animals would not be the unpardonable sin.

They would have been covered and filled with Jesus' sacred blood many times. They would know it well. So important for us who know this not to go back to scattering and for them to do so would be have been blasphemy.