Falling Away Contradiction?

[Presbyterian Continuist]

The word "yet" isn't in that passage. It was added by the translators.

Granted. But the verse before in 1 Timothy says that if we deny Christ, He will deny us. Then he says that if we are faithless, he is faithful. This shows that denying Christ is quite different from being faithless, and the word "faithless" is in the sense of our faith failing. Therefore there is no contradiction in the two separate Scriptures.

 

[Butch5]

Granted. But the verse before in 1 Timothy says that if we deny Christ, He will deny us. Then he says that if we are faithless, he is faithful. This shows that denying Christ is quite different from being faithless, and the word "faithless" is in the sense of our faith failing. Therefore there is no contradiction in the two separate Scriptures.

But the passage doesn't say He remains faithful to us. It says He cannot deny Himself. Thus he remains faithful to Himself. The word that is translated "faithless" is actually 'not faith'. It's the word faith with the negative article. It doesn't mean failing faith, it means to disbelieve or not have faith. For a Christian to disbelieve would be to deny Him.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

But the passage doesn't say He remains faithful to us. It says He cannot deny Himself. Thus he remains faithful to Himself. The word that is translated "faithless" is actually 'not faith'. It's the word faith with the negative article. It doesn't mean failing faith, it means to disbelieve or not have faith. For a Christian to disbelieve would be to deny Him.

So, you believe (correct me if I'm wrong), that every time you lose your faith in some particular area of Christian living, Jesus leaves you to "swing in the wind"?

 

[FIRESTORM314]

I think that if a professing believer starts to fall away, the Holy Spirit will do a lot of work in him to correct and discipline him so that he will turn back to the path. But if the person stubbornly refuses to heed what the Holy Spirit is telling him, then God can leave him to his free will choice; but the Holy Spirit will not give up on him, and if he dies without coming back to faith and obedience, he could find himself in a lot of strife at the Judgment.

This way, both Scriptures are in harmony. God always allows us to have free will, but He provides revelation to make the gospel abundantly clear to every person, whether it is through His creation or through the preaching of the gospel. God's revelation first came through the written Scriptures, then His revelation came through the Person of Christ.

So, there does come to a point where after the Holy Spirit has done all he can to restore a person who has fallen away, where He has to release that person to their decisions made through their free will. But God remains faithful in continuing to make the revelation of His love, grace, and mercy through Christ continuing to be clear to anyone who has gone off the path and is falling away.

I'd agree with that to an extent.

The only problem is that some people can be spritually deaf and blind and not even recognise that the Holy Spirit is talking to them. Out of Church is not a place where you can get a personal word to clarify the situation you may find yourself in. You may well keep on going on the path you are on and thinking that everything is normal - even though the storms have brought your house down so to speak. You may even think that the years in Church did you no good because of the situation you are in. People can get it very wrong - they cannot judge themselves or examine themselves correctly.

Throw in the enemy - and we have a situation where we could get decieved again. If there are holes in the Gospel whereby people can lose their Salvation then the enemy would be aiming to get people to fall through these holes?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I'd agree with that to an extent.

The only problem is that some people can be spritually deaf and blind and not even recognise that the Holy Spirit is talking to them. Out of Church is not a place where you can get a personal word to clarify the situation you may find yourself in. You may well keep on going on the path you are on and thinking that everything is normal - even though the storms have brought your house down so to speak. You may even think that the years in Church did you no good because of the situation you are in. People can get it very wrong - they cannot judge themselves or examine themselves correctly.

Throw in the enemy - and we have a situation where we could get decieved again. If there are holes in the Gospel whereby people can lose their Salvation then the enemy would be aiming to get people to fall through these holes?

This is why fellowshipping with other believers is a safety net to keep a believer on the straight and narrow, and to be in the best position to restore the person back to faith.

 

[Peter J Barban]

I became a Christian at college and later, my best friend from high school and college also converted. Unfortunately, he struggled with his faith and did not grow much. After a year, he gave up his faith. I met him 10 years later and he still did not believe. It was his opinion that he was never truly a Christian and he was content with his current life.

 

[FIRESTORM314]

I became a Christian at college and later, my best friend from high school and college also converted. Unfortunately, he struggled with his faith and did not grow much. After a year, he gave up his faith. I met him 10 years later and he still did not believe. It was his opinion that he was never truly a Christian and he was content with his current life.

The parable of the sower comes to mind.

I think many people can be content with life - young, succesful , good career, good relationships, whatever. In some ways you can see why they think they don't need God. Some can have a good moral value system and are worldy wise enough to hold their own. Church can be dull , out of touch , and in some ways restrictive. Some churches are more religion than true spirituality and all talk and no power. Are these valid excuses for not growing in your faith?

Luke 12:16
And he told them this parable: “The ground of a certain rich man yielded an abundant harvest. 17 He thought to himself, ‘What shall I do? I have no place to store my crops.’

18 “Then he said, ‘This is what I’ll do. I will tear down my barns and build bigger ones, and there I will store my surplus grain. 19 And I’ll say to myself, “You have plenty of grain laid up for many years. Take life easy; eat, drink and be merry.”’

20 “But God said to him, ‘You fool! This very night your life will be demanded from you. Then who will get what you have prepared for yourself?’

21 “This is how it will be with whoever stores up things for themselves but is not rich toward God.”

 

[Dave L]

How does one reconcile Hebrews 6 (If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame) with 2 Timothy 13 (If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.)

Hebrews 6

I understand this passage in the limited atonement sense. That is, Christ died only for the elect and these will not fall away. But others who fall away, were not the elect.

So God would need to elect them for salvation, Christ would need to return to the cross to redeem them, before they could repent and experience salvation. Which is impossible according to the passage.

 

[Butch5]

So, you believe (correct me if I'm wrong), that every time you lose your faith in some particular area of Christian living, Jesus leaves you to "swing in the wind"?

I'm not sure what you mean by lose your faith. But the passage isn't talking about having doubts. It's talking about disbelieving. It's in the context of denying Christ.

 

[aiki]

How does one reconcile Hebrews 6 (If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame) with 2 Timothy 13 (If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.)

Hebrews 6:4-6 (NKJV)
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

A genuinely born-again person is not in view here. Instead, a "tare" is described, a false convert, whose enlightenment is merely intellectual; who had only "tasted" of the "heavenly gift," that is, had only a partial, limited experience of God; who, in a second-hand way partook or partnered with the Spirit in His work in and through the Church; and who, as a consequence of the falsity of their experience of God, eventually falls away from their participation in the life and work of the Church and the saving truth of the Gospel of Christ (1 John 2:19).

2 Timothy 2:11-13 (NKJV)
11 This is a faithful saying: For if we died with Him, We shall also live with Him.
12 If we endure, We shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He also will deny us.
13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself.

This passage is not teaching that God will remain faithful to a man no matter what he does. Verse 13 is actually a warning that arises from verse 12. God will remain faithful to His promise to deny those who deny Him. If a man is faithless, that is, unbelieving, He has denied God and will find that God stands in opposition to his faithlessness, faithfully fulfilling His promise to those who have denied Him. This passage, then, does not stand in contradiction to the passage from Hebrews 6 but actually supports it.

 

[Blade]

There are some KEY words we need to look at. "Tasted". So tell me.. since you been saved.. have you ONLY tasted of Him? "and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come," Tasted...

Some have tasted all this.. then walk away. Whats going to bring them back? Some take a drink.. a taste of all this and.. na dont want it. They see it all.. tasted it.. but walked away. They never made the commitment. One can say believe John 3:16 with just your mind.. just the word and never meant it with your heart. They see it all and.. dont want it..

Context..

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I'm not sure what you mean by lose your faith. But the passage isn't talking about having doubts. It's talking about disbelieving. It's in the context of denying Christ.

I think you are cobbling two separate passages out of their context to try and prove some point. It doesn't work. We can't read stuff into Scripture without using 5th grade comprehension 101.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

How does one reconcile Hebrews 6 (If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame) with 2 Timothy 13 (If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.)

Here is the verse you are speaking about:
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 [c]if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

We should first take into account who Paul or writter is speaking to. He is speaking to the Jewish converts. He is not speaking to the Gentile convert. This verse is speaking of the Jewish convert who is going back to the tradition of Judaism. If you read the verses prior to this one, the writer is explaining that unless the believer grows in faith they will fall back into the old covenant of "laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God". Following the Law is a dead work. Jesus Christ of Nazareth is the new work and New Covenant.

 

[rjs330]

I'd agree with that to an extent.

The only problem is that some people can be spritually deaf and blind and not even recognise that the Holy Spirit is talking to them. Out of Church is not a place where you can get a personal word to clarify the situation you may find yourself in. You may well keep on going on the path you are on and thinking that everything is normal - even though the storms have brought your house down so to speak. You may even think that the years in Church did you no good because of the situation you are in. People can get it very wrong - they cannot judge themselves or examine themselves correctly.

Throw in the enemy - and we have a situation where we could get decieved again. If there are holes in the Gospel whereby people can lose their Salvation then the enemy would be aiming to get people to fall through these holes?

Yes he does. Remember the warnings? The enemy comes as an angle of light and also as a roaring lion to devour us? If we could not lose our salvation then there would be no need for the warnings. There are plenty of scriptures that warn against constant or consistent sinning. Including the scriptures in Hebrews.

 

[rjs330]

There are some KEY words we need to look at. "Tasted". So tell me.. since you been saved.. have you ONLY tasted of Him? "and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come," Tasted...

Some have tasted all this.. then walk away. Whats going to bring them back? Some take a drink.. a taste of all this and.. na dont want it. They see it all.. tasted it.. but walked away. They never made the commitment. One can say believe John 3:16 with just your mind.. just the word and never meant it with your heart. They see it all and.. dont want it..

Context..

Yes and this ties in well with what Jesus said in his parable of the soil. Some grow and get choked out. It also goes with the warnings that not all that say Lord Lord will enter the kingdom in the end. We can walk away from our salvation by consistent persistent sin.

 

[Butch5]

I think you are cobbling two separate passages out of their context to try and prove some point. It doesn't work. We can't read stuff into Scripture without using 5th grade comprehension 101.

I'm not reading anything into Scripture.

11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. (2 Tim. 2:11-13 KJV)

What has Jesus said about those who deny Him? To interpret verse 13 to say that if one's faith fails Jesus will still save them flatly contradicts the verse before it.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I'm not reading anything into Scripture.

11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. (2 Tim. 2:11-13 KJV)

What has Jesus said about those who deny Him? To interpret verse 13 to say that if one's faith fails Jesus will still save them flatly contradicts the verse before it.

I don't know of any genuinely converted believer who would wilfully deny the Lord. The indwelling Holy Spirit would not allow him to do that without a fight.

If you believe in a person being saved today and lost tomorrow, then you might need to get hold of Arminius' actual teaching and get it from him directly, seeing that free choice about whether a person goes on for Christ or not comes from it.

 

[Butch5]

I don't know of any genuinely converted believer who would wilfully deny the Lord. The indwelling Holy Spirit would not allow him to do that without a fight.

This is speculation.

If you believe in a person being saved today and lost tomorrow, then you might need to get hold of Arminius' actual teaching and get it from him directly, seeing that free choice about whether a person goes on for Christ or not comes from it.

No, it doesn't come from Arminius. It comes from the Scriptures. It's also was the belief of earliest Christians. They actually argued against the Gnostics who held to the idea that salvation couldn't be lost. The idea came into the Christianity through Augustine, as Perseverance of the Saints. However it was rejected by the Church. The idea was revived during the Reformation by Luther and Calvin who were influenced by the writings of Augustine.

 

[rjs330]

I don't know of any genuinely converted believer who would wilfully deny the Lord. The indwelling Holy Spirit would not allow him to do that without a fight.

If you believe in a person being saved today and lost tomorrow, then you might need to get hold of Arminius' actual teaching and get it from him directly, seeing that free choice about whether a person goes on for Christ or not comes from it.

You're absolutely right that the Holy Spirit would not just let them go. Hebrews tells us that is the reason for God's discipline. He doesn't just let us go. But he also is just and holy. Which means that he cannot abide sin. So if we continue to walk in sin and rebel against Him He will reject us. It's not something that happens easily or quickly. It's our unrepentant attitude despite the pull of the Holy Spirit and the discipline of God that causes that to happen. That's what the Hebrews scripture teaches as well as Christ and other apostles.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

You're absolutely right that the Holy Spirit would not just let them go. Hebrews tells us that is the reason for God's discipline. He doesn't just let us go. But he also is just and holy. Which means that he cannot abide sin. So if we continue to walk in sin and rebel against Him He will reject us. It's not something that happens easily or quickly. It's our unrepentant attitude despite the pull of the Holy Spirit and the discipline of God that causes that to happen. That's what the Hebrews scripture teaches as well as Christ and other apostles.

The genuinely converted believer would find willful sin very hard work, in the same way that an unconverted sinner would find Christian things a burden and a duty that he would have to work at.

The sinner would have the forces of hell against him as he seeks the Lord and moves toward receiving Christ. It is a spiritual battle for him. Conversely, the genuine believer, who has the indwelling Holy Spirit would have the Spirit holding him back and fighting within him to prevent him going into habitual sin.

For a religious person to ultimately deny Christ and fall into the judgment that the Apostle to the Hebrews writes about, he would have to engage into a protracted battle with the Holy Spirit, set his face like flight against the Lord, throw the Lord's love back in His face, and persist in sin until the Lord is forced to give up on him. It just doesn't happen overnight.

Most of the posts I have seen on CF with godly believers struggling with their faith and sinful habit patterns are crying out for help, not hardening their hearts against the Lord at all.