If I were to suggest that because the average adult male Guatemalan has the average equivalent education of a 4th grade student and doesn't speak English nor likely is he to learn it....importing millions of them illegally in a couple of years is a bad idea for many reasons, the main one being a net negative impact on economic prosperity....but also other things.
Now...even without checking my claims about the average adult male education and English fluency on the potential for net positive economic contributions in the US....how does that argument feel intuitively? Immoral? Unkind? Judgemental? Bigoted? Racist?
What one thinks they feel "intuitively" will depend upon the sort of prior experiences and education one has had in regard to "others."
Yet if I were to throw far more vicious claims at those who one might imagine are in positions of authority or wealth or power....obviously those aren't only acceptable, but they're seen as entirely justifiable even if they're made from a position of total ignorance.
Whether this is ultimately a feature of Christian morality in certain cultures and it's vast influence, or an innate feature of mankind in general is something I'm unsure of....but what I am sure of is the pressures it creates in multicultural societies where assimilation is not necessary or expected.
The Christian formula was born in the social cauldron of being the "other" and "the minority" rather than the obverse we have today.
I think 90% of those around you using the word proletariat conversationally don't have a clue what it means. I think that's why it was generally swapped with "oppressor/oppressed".
That's probably true to some extent, but that's not my point really. My point is that pain and poverty breeds resentment, which then comes out in various ways, one of which is, these days, to become increasingly open to socialist/Marxist modes of acculturation, whether at the elite level or the plebeian level.
I feel more like Gollum. I know what's precious to me. I know what I'm willing to do to keep or get it back. Jump right in the fire.
That's probably not the best route of consideration. I think I'll take the Samwise Gamgee route.............................. I'm sorry if that causes you any consternation.
And that's fair. Anyone smart enough to realize how smart they are should, inevitably, realize how little they know or could possibly understand....but that's a fleeting feeling, isn't it? We prefer simple answers....innately....so we adopt them against better judgment.
I don't prefer simple answers; in fact, from my experience (and education), something known as "simple answers" are very difficult to come by in reality. But I know that some think otherwise.
Ok...I think that I've yet to run into those people lol. They tend to run or become silent. They need a crowd to avoid any serious examination...but alone...without the guardrails of polite society, forum moderation, to protect their ideas? C'mon.....
I remember the old internet lol. You would see the occasional goofball clinging to simplistic notions of complete self reliability and assurance in pure understanding of.....anything. They were chased off by people of average intellect (me!) and silenced themselves in shame or siloed themselves in group thought bubbles.
Yes, I we still see them pop up now and them even today, don't we? The trick is to be able to discern between those who exhibit the dark triadic symptoms of a troll versus those who are simply struggling psychologically through life and run their emotions high.
Nope...well, I may have an interesting story, but I'm not really a story-teller...and can't hope to tell it in an accessible way. Same problem you seem to have.
See...the funny thing is, above, I took you to be suggesting that I'd have some interesting life experiences to relate. To me, those have become boring...so I considered you as the audience for an interesting story and decided upon a thematic question about what good might be found in the greatest evil and what bad might be found in the greatest good. A deeply philosophical and religious question. Then I decided I'm not the one to say it lol.
Your proposed thematic question has already been offered up by many others, Ana. We both know that line of analysis is an age old trope.
How do you think that went down assuming of course, it went down? Obviously, the audience that gets captured is seeing the masterpiece, right? But Picasso didn't start off a master once he put pencil to paper....do you imagine Paul basically blowing it on the first few dozen attempts?
How do I think it "went down"? What is obvious is that the Gospel isn't something that is immediately or overly palatable to most people, most of the time. So, as we see in the book of Acts, and granting that the text of Acts reflects some historical information (which I think it does on some level), Paul didn't have much affect and was seen, as a lot of Christians were seen at that time, as a babbler.
In fact, Paul's "success" wasn't, I think, in accumulating high numbers of converts. Rather, it was in having the gumption to travel as widely as he did and plant as many fledgling micro-communities as he could (obviously,, without the use of the sword and with God's help). Somehow, the Christian movement Jesus started "held out" until............for good or bad..............Emperor Constantine came along, bringing with him the sword of imperial authority.
On here I've had two doubtful Christians thank me for "helping" them accept a non-religious viewpoint they now claimed to hold. Now, was I trying to make convincing arguments? Yes. Was I doing it for their benefit of understanding truth? No. In time, I began to wonder if I had helped in taking something that might have helped them through difficulties of life, or grief. I wondered if I had yanked them from helpful communities that would be a source of comfort at least and left them wandering into new communities that would simply use them or prey upon them. For what it's worth...I don't try to convince anyone from a standpoint of uncertainty anymore. What can I really know of Gods I've never known?
I kind of wish you hadn't done that. But, as they say, "confession is good for the soul." Please feel free to keep sharing about this......................
Doubts are fine, and I don't have a camp for anyone to join. I should have offered advice on what they were getting from their conviction, and what they would lose by abandoning it. What they stand to gain isn't obvious if it's simply a hole of wanting community without self regard. We aren't really supposed to be "doing life" alone. Those few amongst us who wander out into the unknown are often pushed by circumstances we don't see...and imagine greatness led to their deeds if they are recognized as admirable.
This is true. I've always been one to see the value in "doing life" within a communitarian mode of socialization. Unfortunately, family and friends don't necessarily share my affections for this notion.
It's fine. I'm no religious scholar. I'd say revelations describes the collapse of a kind of "order" as the fearful and terrifying thing it is...and glorifying the birth of a new, and in the context, perfect "order"...and that's as general a lesson as I can give it. It's too easy write off as the ravings of lunatics. There's a primordial theme there that's almost subconscious and difficult to access.
It is easy to write off as "the ravings of lunatics," but when when the patterns emerge, and when you wake up realizing after 40 years of study that you aren't actually schizophrenic, you may begin to think that it's only those who are less than well adapted who don't see the forest for the trees where the book of
Revelation is concerned.
Not really off topic imo. Maps well onto social collapse.
Or...you know, the ravings of madmen. I think you should ask yourself if you even want to stop collapse and if you think the communists are scary, take comfort that while they are more numerous and zealous than previously understood, they aren't very good at it. They can't see the obstacle right under their noses, have dogmatic views of power, and foolish understanding of needs. They only succeed long enough to become failures. They imagine that the square peg won't go into the round hole because of something wrong with the peg, or maybe the hole...but not themselves.
Stop collapse? I think you're misunderstanding me a little, Ana. As Christians, we're all supposed to work for the peaceful betterment of the society we live in, even if and when that society decides to pull the plug on itself spiritually and socially.
So, what appears to others, I'm sure, to be my mere ramblings about prophetic patterns in history shouldn't be taken as inferred courses of action, especially not of political action.
If you lack the conviction that is only gained through ignorance to lead....
Then I'd propose that the only good is to serve any as best you can...and by this do good. Those who lead would need such help.
Conviction, in my case, has little to do with it, really. It's more of a matter of denied opportunity.
But you're right, I think: We all need to seek to help those who lead.
Oof...that's dark. Well...if I were king, emperor, or close enough to power to fix problems....
I'd return the focus to family. Absent good education, and gainful or meaningful employment, family will keep social bonds from complete deterioration. Raise wages at the bottom, depress costs at the top, manage growth to a trickle, reorient value along lines of necessity of labor not difficulty or innovation....then rebuild the educational system. Divide what must be public from what should be private. We wouldn't suffer me long...so whatever I do must be hard to undo after me. Essentially, I'd point out that we need garbagemen...doctors, nurses, teachers, farmers, police and the like....far more than financial speculators and value trading gamblers...and remove their toys. Trim away needless bureaucracy. Those I have to hurt are few and should be hurt all at once, those I am responsible to help are many and should be given what they need slowly to understand the continual good of my rule and by the time enough smart people understand what I've done, I'll be loved enough to not be executed.
But who wants to work that hard for those who don't understand? Let it collapse. Serve any seeking help...as best you can.
I'd prefer it not to collapse but reform into something better if possible, for everyone's benefit.
If you need a big hug, though, just let me know.
