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Fall of man, I can't understand this

stevenb6

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I've had trouble with this for so long and it's taken me forever just to able to even try and actually articulate this.

So the story of Adam of eve was obviously the fall of man. It's tragic beyond belief in my opinion.

There is something that's plagued me and it's around Jesus. The Bible says
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life

It also talk about the word of God. The word of God was God and was with God. So isn't saying those who believed in his son he sent and the word of God, God being a separate entity in the Trinity contradictory?

He so whoever believes in his son who he sent. Even though the word was GOD and was with GOD.

This sort of ties into western civilization religion, false teachings.

I think either this was a contradiction or the fall of man was entirely unavoidable based on deception, lack of tools, and complete misunderstanding of scripture that was never available because it only pointed to an inevitable suffering death and sacrifice which is essence Jesus Christ.

This leads me to the only belief possibly being that to avoid the fall of man, one would have had to have a really cried out to simply God himself for Christ to have instantly been crucified and the fall of man avoided since the fall was based solely on disobedience.
 

Mark Quayle

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You have a huge range of assumptions, many of which could be rendered invalid by applying the rest of scriptures to you questions. I recommend you go there.

Being me, the easiest to mention is that Adam and Eve, had they not sinned, would never have attained the glory and joy that the people of God will, upon their resurrection and glorification.

The second to come to mind is the fact that God is not bound by time. He sees the end from the beginning and the middle. When he spoke creation into existence, he spoke the finished product into existence —we just can't see it yet, from here, since it has taken these many years to accomplish. Now, to be honest, that is just a way for me to put it. I don't mean to present it as fact, but as a way to open eyes to the otherness of God and how he operates.

Our understanding is necessarily short.
 
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stevenb6

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You have a huge range of assumptions, many of which could be rendered invalid by applying the rest of scriptures to you questions. I recommend you go there.

Being me, the easiest to mention is that Adam and Eve, had they not sinned, would never have attained the glory and joy that the people of God will, upon their resurrection and glorification.

The second to come to mind is the fact that God is not bound by time. He sees the end from the beginning and the middle. When he spoke creation into existence, he spoke the finished product into existence —we just can't see it yet, from here, since it has taken these many years to accomplish. Now, to be honest, that is just a way for me to put it. I don't mean to present it as fact, but as a way to open eyes to the otherness of God and how he operates.

Our understanding is necessarily short.
I see a few positive takeaways from that thank you. I've been deeper into this awhile, all of a sudden like never before I am FLOORED at the tragic concept of all of mankind being plagued forever because the main frame was deceived. That means that people in sin and death didn't even have the choice they had. I may be thinking too much into this but
 
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Mark Quayle

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I see a few positive takeaways from that thank you. I've been deeper into this awhile, all of a sudden like never before I am FLOORED at the tragic concept of all of mankind being plagued forever because the main frame was deceived. That means that people in sin and death didn't even have the choice they had. I may be thinking too much into this but
Real choice, they definitely had, and that with eternal consequences, but contrary to what is assumed, modern day, that choice is absolutely without encumbrances, they did not have. Hence, real responsibility is theirs, but to do what is impossible for them to do, is not theirs.

God having created, being both omnipotent and omniscient, implies that all that comes subsequent to his creating is in fact INTENDED, and that, according to the Bible, is for a certain goal, which we can be sure he will bring to pass. It is not contingent on our abilities, though he uses them for his purposes.
 
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d taylor

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Your writing is hard to read for example what are you saying here.

This leads me to the only belief possibly being that to avoid the fall of man, one would have had to have a really cried out to simply God himself for Christ to have instantly been crucified and the fall of man avoided since the fall was based solely on disobedience.

This also make no sense also

I think either this was a contradiction or the fall of man was entirely unavoidable based on deception, lack of tools, and complete misunderstanding of scripture that was never available because it only pointed to an inevitable suffering death and sacrifice which is essence Jesus Christ.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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I've had trouble with this for so long and it's taken me forever just to able to even try and actually articulate this.

So the story of Adam of eve was obviously the fall of man. It's tragic beyond belief in my opinion.

There is something that's plagued me and it's around Jesus. The Bible says
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life

It also talk about the word of God. The word of God was God and was with God. So isn't saying those who believed in his son he sent and the word of God, God being a separate entity in the Trinity contradictory?

He so whoever believes in his son who he sent. Even though the word was GOD and was with GOD.

This sort of ties into western civilization religion, false teachings.

I think either this was a contradiction or the fall of man was entirely unavoidable based on deception, lack of tools, and complete misunderstanding of scripture that was never available because it only pointed to an inevitable suffering death and sacrifice which is essence Jesus Christ.

This leads me to the only belief possibly being that to avoid the fall of man, one would have had to have a really cried out to simply God himself for Christ to have instantly been crucified and the fall of man avoided since the fall was based solely on disobedience.
Understanding deeper truths about the relationship between man and God depends on one's theological position. The unfortunate reality is , there are several positions on man's condition. That being said, the "downfall" did occurred through disobedience. Why? Because our Father gave us " free will". And yes they fell into deception by the Adversary. If one leans towards an Augustinian/ Calvanist view, this will become a stumbling block .
As far as the Trinity contradiction, I always point to Isaiah. Jesus Christ of Nazareth is known by many names including the Word.

For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

And many more names...

Blessings
 
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stevenb6

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"Being me, the easiest to mention is that Adam and Eve, had they not sinned, would never have attained the glory and joy that the people of God will, upon their resurrection and glorification."

Yeah that's a pleasant picture I just cannot see yet. Thanks.
 
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stevenb6

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"Being me, the easiest to mention is that Adam and Eve, had they not sinned, would never have attained the glory and joy that the people of God will, upon their resurrection and glorification."

Yeah this makes even less sense to me now. They were supposed to sin to for a greater good? I thought the whole point was to turn from sin.

Also a little tripped out reading that God placed to the serpent in the garden and also made it basically said it was his most cunning(im assuming deceptive) creation.

This is seeming like one entire contradiction now again after you've mentioned they were supposed to sin to receive the glorification upon redemption.

Don't sin but sin. Don't be deceived yet be up again the most deceptive being I've ever created. Break time from this stuff for me..

Man no wonder everything is so messed up.
 
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stevenb6

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Just more thoughts after reading around more.

God. Hidden from start.
Free will. A brief window for repentance.
Separation from god. Disobeying God.

So, at this level you can be saved. You'd have to just do something the entire story points out you can't because you don't even know how.

Then another cycle of life starts.

So now, since his spirit was poured on everyone in the last days for a true second chance, the entire bloodline is now corrupt and there's like an even higher debt.

Cool.
 
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Lukaris

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I often think Cain murdering Abel gets lost in the shuffle when we speak of the fall. Of course it starts with Adam & Eve, however Cain seems to have really tilted things to the worse. This seems to be a point made in 1 John 3:11-18. Per Genesis 4:1-15, Cain had some form of communication with God & Abel’s works were righteous ( even though the fall had happened). It almost seems that the birth of Seth is a recalibration of humanity ( Genesis 4:25). However, the line of Cain also continued but we cannot view humanity along literal blood lines like this ( Matthew 7:1-12). These are more of general human inclinations for better or worse.
 
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Jo555

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The Word of God is foolishness to those who try to understand it on their own.

It may help you to prayerfully mediate on the story of the prodigal son.
"Being me, the easiest to mention is that Adam and Eve, had they not sinned, would never have attained the glory and joy that the people of God will, upon their resurrection and glorification."

Yeah this makes even less sense to me now. They were supposed to sin to for a greater good? I thought the whole point was to turn from sin.

Also a little tripped out reading that God placed to the serpent in the garden and also made it basically said it was his most cunning(im assuming deceptive) creation.

This is seeming like one entire contradiction now again after you've mentioned they were supposed to sin to receive the glorification upon redemption.

Don't sin but sin. Don't be deceived yet be up again the most deceptive being I've ever created. Break time from this stuff for me..

Man no wonder everything is so messed up.
Have you asked God about this? I run into stuff in the bible that doesn't seem to make sense and i share my thoughts openly and honestly and i am always astounded at his revelatory reply. It's a very cool process. It won't make sense to you in your human nature.

Best i can describe this is how we have children and when they come of age they can choose to go on their own. You don't want to force them to stay when they want to go.

Same with God. Yet, God had a plan to willingly draw us back to Him. Try not to complicate matters.
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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"Being me, the easiest to mention is that Adam and Eve, had they not sinned, would never have attained the glory and joy that the people of God will, upon their resurrection and glorification."

Yeah that's a pleasant picture I just cannot see yet. Thanks.
It's based on the resurrection, ascension and glorifying of Christ Jesus. The process through which God Himself went to become the life given Spirit. Our human spirit is regenerated to become one with Christ. Looking at the big picture that covers the whole of the Bible is nessasary.

Eta the process is that of the Son of Man naturally transforming, not conforming to the world but rather the spiritual application from the reality (truth) along with the (S) spirit in cohabitation.
 
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Mark Quayle

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"Being me, the easiest to mention is that Adam and Eve, had they not sinned, would never have attained the glory and joy that the people of God will, upon their resurrection and glorification."

Yeah this makes even less sense to me now. They were supposed to sin to for a greater good? I thought the whole point was to turn from sin.
Well, before they sinned, they had no sin to turn from.
Also a little tripped out reading that God placed to the serpent in the garden and also made it basically said it was his most cunning(im assuming deceptive) creation.

This is seeming like one entire contradiction now again after you've mentioned they were supposed to sin to receive the glorification upon redemption.

Don't sin but sin. Don't be deceived yet be up again the most deceptive being I've ever created. Break time from this stuff for me..
You may remember the passage from Romans 6, "What then, should we sin that grace may abound? Of course not!" But, we do and it does. Thank God for his never-ending mercy and faithfulness to those he created for his special purpose.

Also, from Romans 8, "...the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope (the Greek translated 'hope', there, means, 'expectation') that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God." ( —By the way, there is a lot there in Romans that deals directly with the OP)
Man no wonder everything is so messed up.
We see it messed up. But, though we can't see this as fact, yet, it has already been restored to God —in fact, in much improved fashion.

God doesn't do time the way we do. From Colossians 1, "...through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross."

From Hebrews 2, "You have put in subjection all things under his feet. For in subjecting all things to him, He left nothing unsubject to him. But at present not yet do we see all things having been subjected to him."
 
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