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Faithful obliged not to follow Pope’s opinion on gay civil unions

Discussion in 'One Bread, One Body - Catholic' started by Michie, Oct 26, 2020.

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  1. Michie

    Michie Human rights begin in the womb. Supporter

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    What Pope Francis said about homosexual civil unions is devoid of truth and, therefore, false. It does not force believers to accept what he said, even if coming straight from the pope himself. Quite the contrary: faithful are obliged to think the opposite, even if the current pope does not say so, because every other pope before him has said so. Catholic faithful must not feel uneasy about refusing this erroneous teaching which upends natural and divine law, rejects natural ethics, and upsets notions of law and authority by confusing them with power.

    Continued below.
    Faithful obliged not to follow Pope’s opinion on gay civil unions
     
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  2. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Rather, The faithful are obliged to follow their own conscience on the matter. CCC#1800
     
  3. Michie

    Michie Human rights begin in the womb. Supporter

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    Let’s not forget a well formed conscience formed by the teachings of the Church.
     
  4. Michie

    Michie Human rights begin in the womb. Supporter

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    II. The Formation of Conscience
    1783 Conscience must be informed and moral judgment enlightened. A well-formed conscience is upright and truthful. It formulates its judgments according to reason, in conformity with the true good willed by the wisdom of the Creator. the education of conscience is indispensable for human beings who are subjected to negative influences and tempted by sin to prefer their own judgment and to reject authoritative teachings.
    1784 The education of the conscience is a lifelong task. From the earliest years, it awakens the child to the knowledge and practice of the interior law recognized by conscience. Prudent education teaches virtue; it prevents or cures fear, selfishness and pride, resentment arising from guilt, and feelings of complacency, born of human weakness and faults. the education of the conscience guarantees freedom and engenders peace of heart.
    1785 In the formation of conscience the Word of God is the light for our path,54 we must assimilate it in faith and prayer and put it into practice. We must also examine our conscience before the Lord’s Cross. We are assisted by the gifts of the Holy Spirit, aided by the witness or advice of others and guided by the authoritative teaching of the Church.55
     
  5. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    And Let's not Forget the Pope is the Chief Bishop of the Church, head teacher, Prime Minister of the King. A well formed conscience does not repudiate our Pope's opinions outright simply because they make you feel "icky"... A well formed conscience receives His opinions with joyful gladness and applies them to their own moral decision making process thoughtfully, with humility and reverence.
     
  6. Michie

    Michie Human rights begin in the womb. Supporter

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    No they are his opinions only. We are not obliged to follow them. And nobody said anything about feeling “icky.”
     
  7. Michie

    Michie Human rights begin in the womb. Supporter

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  8. Michie

    Michie Human rights begin in the womb. Supporter

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    'When in doubt, be in favor of God.'


    October 22, 2020 (LifeSiteNews) – Cardinal Gerhard Müller, in his first reaction to the new papal interview which endorses civil unions of same-sex couples, states that when there is a conflict between the words of a Pope and the Words of God, one has to choose God. He reminds us of St. Paul who had to withstand St. Peter, the first Pope, when the latter was teaching error. The German cardinal also tells Catholics that in such a case where the Pope does not teach the Word of God, but his “purely private” opinion, they “should freely contradict” him.

    Finally, Cardinal Müller states that Pope Francis, “instead of meeting with people who feel confirmed by him in their attitude and wrong thinking and who show off to the world with their picture with the Pope, [should] study Daniel Mattson's book and invite him to a conversation. He is an American who has found the way out of the disgracefulness of sexual promiscuity and into a life of abstinence in the ‘freedom and glory of the children of God’ (Rom 8:21).”

    In a new film that will premiere in North America Sunday but premiered in Rome yesterday, Pope Francis has contradicted Catholic Church teaching by calling for homosexual civil unions to be legalized. Speaking of homosexual civil unions, he said, “What we have to create is a civil union law. That way they are legally covered. I stood up for that.”

    Continued below.
    Cardinal says Catholics ‘can and should’ disagree with Pope’s ‘opinion’ on gay civil unions
     
  9. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Nobody said anything about being obliged to follow His opinions either....

    But wait... they are opinions now?
    In your OP you called it His "teaching"...

    Which is it?
    A personal opinion of an individual Catholic, or a teaching of the Head teacher of the Catholic Church, the Prime Minister of the King?
     
  10. Michie

    Michie Human rights begin in the womb. Supporter

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    .
     
  11. Michie

    Michie Human rights begin in the womb. Supporter

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    You know, I read a lot of your posts. Quite surprising for a Catholic. So what are you saying concerning the popes musings? I’m curious what you think faithful, practicing Catholics should do when a papal opinion clashes with Scripture and what the Church has always taught.
     
  12. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    You can apply a teaching (which you still haven't clarified if this is in fact a teaching or merely an opinion) ... you can take a teaching (or opinion) from the Pope you have received with joyful gladness, and apply it to your moral decision making process with humility and reverence, and still end up not "following" the opinion as a matter of conscience...

    I trust you know the difference?

    We are Obliged to receive His teachings (or opinions... again, which is it?) with Joyful gladness and we are Obliged to apply those teachings (or opinions... which are they again?) to the moral decision making process of our own conscience, and we are Obliged to follow our conscience. We are NOT Obliged to Follow His opinions (or teachings).

    Again, I trust you understand the difference.
     
  13. Michie

    Michie Human rights begin in the womb. Supporter

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    I’m wondering if you do actually. I asked you a question. You going to answer it? I posted the catechism in context concerning conscience, other info... so??
     
  14. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    And I read a lot of your posts... I find your many of your positions quite surprising for a Catholic too.

    As for the Pope's musings, again church Doctrine is quite clear... when we are faced with a moral decision such as the one you paint here, we are to seek the council of wise and holy people ( the pope being chief among those I would call wise and Holy) search the scriptures, search church teaching and formulate our own moral decision with our own conscience as the final arbiter.

    And when done right, It takes much longer to do than 5 minutes after the Pope states an opinion (or is it a teaching?) that you immediately find objectionable - same goes for an opinion (or is it a teaching?) you immediately find AMAZING.
     
  15. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    I Likewise asked you a question. You going to answer it?

    Here it is again in case you amazingly missed it in my last 3 posts..

    In your OP you said the Pope was "Teaching", then you subsequently said he was merely "Opining".

    which is it?
     
  16. Michie

    Michie Human rights begin in the womb. Supporter

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    Please stop with the digs and answer my question. Being the pope does not make him infallible with his off the cuff remarks. Your posts are surprising. That’s not an insult. I’m asking for clarification.
     
  17. Michie

    Michie Human rights begin in the womb. Supporter

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    The op is a link.
     
  18. Michie

    Michie Human rights begin in the womb. Supporter

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    Last Wednesday, October 21, the following statement by Pope Francis appeared all over the media: “Homosexuals have a right to be a part of the family. They’re children of God and have a right to a family. Nobody should be thrown out, or be made miserable because of it. What we have to create is a civil union law. That way they are legally covered. I stood up for that.”

    Francis’s words are devoid of truth and, therefore, false. His pronouncement does not require believers, like myself, to accept what he said, even if coming straight from the pope himself. Quite the contrary: faithful are obliged to think the opposite, even if this pope does not say so, because every other pope before him has said so. Catholic faithful must not feel uneasy about refusing this erroneous teaching. They must be very worried, even shocked. They should be, at least, highly concerned about the confusing state of the Church, which is now clear from the pope’s latest public statement. The pope must be feeling uncomfortable for having said something completely contradictory to what other popes have stated in the past.

    I will not linger here to examine all the problems related to Pope Francis’s troubling remarks. I will not pronounce on what level of magisterium his words fall. I’ll let canonists be the judge of this. Nor will I attempt to assess the split right down the middle Francis’s words have provoked inside the Church. Our theologians can handle this. I will not scrutinize the scandal these words have provoked in so many souls, especially among our youth. Finally, I will not get into the many other subjects of debate Francis's words lead to: artificial procreation, in vitro insemination, the destruction of human embryos, the sacrifice of children for adoption on the altar of unnatural desire, surrogate pregnancies, and so forth.

    The pope’s words have implicit aberrant consequences, but his statement will not be discussed in this light. I won’t examine, either, the statement’s inconsistency with others made by Pope Francis, statements of which I don’t even try and make logical connections. I won’t get into all the tragedies Francis’s words provoked yesterday. I am not interested in any further clarifications by the Vatican Press Office. What more can be said when faced with a debacle of this high degree? For now, we cannot delve into the mystery of why the pope said such things. I am only interested in one thing: affirming that Francis’s statement is false and unjust. Furthermore, I am intend to state why I will never accept nor ever put it into practice.

    Revelation, the Church's perennial teachings, and natural right reasonhave always been in agreement that the family is the indissoluble union of a man and a woman, founded on marriage and open to life. This is a natural and divine law and no one can change it, not even a pope. To do so, a pope must make us believe that Church’s own magisterium has fallen into grave error and that human reason itself has always been mistaken. If a Church authority wants me to believe this, I say I will not and, in so doing, reject his very authority.

    Now the Pope maintains that even homosexual persons (i.e. "those that exhibit homosexual behavior") have the right to a family. Francis places civil unions on par with the institution of marriage as defined above. He, thus, accepts the existence of more than one type of family, which by itself is unacceptable. This would be like saying that the creation story has all been for naught, that Scripture had fallen into error, and that the natural and social order are no longer have absolute, but conventional ends, depending on life’s changing circumstances. These are all the things a pope cannot support, particularly when thinking and acting like a pope

    Political authority cannot recognize by law that which does not respect the natural and finalistic order of human society, because if so, it would be working for the “common evil” and no longer for the “common good.” Desire is not enough to make two individuals a family, neither when this desire is natural or not, but all the more so if it is an unnatural one. What needs to be supported, instead is, the notion of a vocation ensuring that two people do not approach each other merely as two individuals, but united by completing each other according to an order that does not depend on them. To allow for a family of two homosexuals means to consider society as a sum of individuals approaching each other on the basis of individual desires. No legitimate political authority can permit this. If not, the family and so too all of society, is nothing more than a group of asexual, or otherwise transsexual, individuals as opposed to being firmly rooted in male-female complementarity and open to life.

    No one has, per se, the right to a family. We are children of God, as Pope Francis says, but this in itself does not grant us the right to have a family. The family is a duty, and a duty is a vocation and not a right. Duties are not defined by us. Rather, duties are imposed on us by moral law and are attractive to us by their goodness. This is something homosexuality cannot accept. Pope Francis's statement confuses the relationship between rights and duties and is incapable of establishing duties in the finalistic order of things. The idea of civil law-backed unions mentioned by the pope is radical and anarchical. It is neither a Christian interpretation nor in conformity with Christian philosophical and theological traditions.

    The pope’s brief statement upends natural and divine law, rejects natural ethics, and upsets notions of law and authority by confusing them with power. All the foundations of Catholic Social Doctrine are, thus, completely overturned in a few words, wiping clean more than a hundred years of magisterium.

    Pope Francis does not speak of marriage but of civil unions to legally protect the homosexuals. However, this point has already been clarified by the Church and right reason: it is not possible to legally protect homosexual relationships, but it is possible to protect individuals who, as such, are already protected by the legal system as persons. Any homosexual or any other “de-facto Union, even if heterosexual, shouldn’t, have any legal recognition, because they are rejection of marriage for the aforesaid reasons.

    When political authorities grant legal recognition to such civil unions, it is as if they are saying that such relationships are functional to the common good. But this is impossible, because only a real family union is capable of this role, while other unions are sources of abuse and violence. We must blind not to see this. When the natural family is neglected, society disintegrates. Pope Francis in one short statement denies tradition, rejects natural right reason, undermines the Church, and dissolves the basis of human society.


    Faithful obliged not to follow Pope’s opinion on gay civil unions
     
  19. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    CCC
    CHAPTER TWO
    THE HUMAN COMMUNION

    ARTICLE 2
    PARTICIPATION IN SOCIAL LIFE

    1905
    In keeping with the social nature of man, the good of each individual is necessarily related to the common good, which in turn can be defined only in reference to the human person:
    Do not live entirely isolated, having retreated into yourselves, as if you were already justified, but gather instead to seek the common good together.25
    1906 By common good is to be understood "the sum total of social conditions which allow people, either as groups or as individuals, to reach their fulfillment more fully and more easily."26 The common good concerns the life of all. It calls for prudence from each, and even more from those who exercise the office of authority. It consists of three essential elements:

    1907 First, the common good presupposes respect for the person as such. In the name of the common good, public authorities are bound to respect the fundamental and inalienable rights of the human person. Society should permit each of its members to fulfill his vocation. In particular, the common good resides in the conditions for the exercise of the natural freedoms indispensable for the development of the human vocation, such as "the right to act according to a sound norm of conscience and to safeguard . . . privacy, and rightful freedom also in matters of religion."27

    1908 Second, the common good requires the social well-being and development of the group itself. Development is the epitome of all social duties. Certainly, it is the proper function of authority to arbitrate, in the name of the common good, between various particular interests; but it should make accessible to each what is needed to lead a truly human life: food, clothing, health, work, education and culture, suitable information, the right to establish a family, and so on.28

    1909 Finally, the common good requires peace, that is, the stability and security of a just order. It presupposes that authority should ensure by morally acceptable means the security of society and its members. It is the basis of the right to legitimate personal and collective defense.

    1910 Each human community possesses a common good which permits it to be recognized as such; it is in the political community that its most complete realization is found. It is the role of the state to defend and promote the common good of civil society, its citizens, and intermediate bodies.

    1911 Human interdependence is increasing and gradually spreading throughout the world. The unity of the human family, embracing people who enjoy equal natural dignity, implies a universal common good. This good calls for an organization of the community of nations able to "provide for the different needs of men; this will involve the sphere of social life to which belong questions of food, hygiene, education, . . . and certain situations arising here and there, as for example . . . alleviating the miseries of refugees dispersed throughout the world, and assisting migrants and their families."29

    1912 The common good is always oriented towards the progress of persons: "The order of things must be subordinate to the order of persons, and not the other way around."30 This order is founded on truth, built up in justice, and animated by love.

    I fail to see How the Pope's musings on this topic do anything but uphold the above teaching.
     
  20. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    A Link That you reposted and are on record as agreeing with... so I ask again, are the Pope's Musings on this topic merely his opinions, or are they, as the OP article you posted and affirmed asserts, a "teaching" of the Pope?

    I believe the distinction matters.
    maybe you don't?
     
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