Faith without works?

[Ratiocination]

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... Have you ever spent any time with Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses? Do I have to spell out the many reasons they are called cults? ...I have a friend who got saved out of Jehovah's Witnesses deception. I'm sorry but any (ministry) that teaches works to obtain salvation is missing the mark entirely. Without a born again experience we will find that our many good works will not help us in the least when we stand before the King. We were created for good works but they don't save us. Nothing but the blood of Jesus Christ upon the door posts of our hearts can give us any hope whatsoever...
freedom project

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[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]From here [/FONT]679 [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]
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[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Hi, I read the above misunderstanding from the 'Trinity = God' thread and wanted to explain the bible's position clearly.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif](James[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]2:17)[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] Thus, too, faith, if it does not have works, is dead in itself.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]JW's know that the blood of Jesus is what saves and without it we have no hope. We know that we must have faith to be able to fully accept that sacrifice, yet, the expression of that faith is good works, without which you have no real faith anyway.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Thoughts?[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Richard...[/FONT]

 

[Ratiocination]

What are Christian works anyway?

Richard...

 

[ChrisManuel]

I have had a Jehovah's Witness in my living room explaining how you become a Jehovah's Witness. He told us in a very clear, specific statement that you simply study to be one and then eventually you begin to witness as one. There was no mention of being born again which the christian faith holds up as a necessity to call yourself a christian. My friend will tell you that the homes of born agains are to be avoided even if they are friendly. When you begin to discuss the differences with them, they have to leave. I have much to say but I don't have time so sorry to be an antagonist but maybe I will stay away for your benefit.

freedom project

 

[Ratiocination]

Hi Chris
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Yes, being born again is very important, it's the whole point of the scriptures since the rebellion in Eden. Jehovah promised that his earth will not always be subject to Satans tyrannical rule. So how is this accomplished and explained by the entirety of scripture? [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif](Revelation 14:3) And they are singing as if a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one was able to master that song but the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been bought from the earth.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif](Revelation 5:9-10) And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Ruling kings by default need subjects to rule over,do they not?[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif](Revelation 7:9-15) After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. 10 And they keep on crying with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation [we owe] to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.” 11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell upon their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying: “Amen! The blessing and the glory and the wisdom and the thanksgiving and the honor and the power and the strength [be] to our God forever and ever. Amen.” 13 And in response one of the elders said to me: “These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?” 14 So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one that knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 That is why they are before the throne of God; and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]These subjects remaining on earth have no need to be born again from spirit, as they will remain on earth.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]So finally...[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif](John 3:3-5) In answer Jesus said to him: “Most truly I say to you, Unless anyone is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nic·o·de′mus said to him: “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter into the womb of his mother a second time and be born, can he?” 5 Jesus answered: “Most truly I say to you, Unless anyone is born from water and spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]If you feel you are one of the 144,000 then you must be 'born again' as these are the ones that will literally see the kingdom of God, as they will be co-rulers with Christ as kings ruling over the earth.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Your thoughts[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Richard.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]p.s. Please don't leave on my account, I invited you to the discussion because I thought we both could benefit from it spiritually...[/FONT]

 

[Girder of Loins]

James points toward how a lot of Christians were living back then. They would accept Christ, but then live in a sinful lifestyle. They didn't "walk the talk". James isn't saying you have to do works(tithing, witnessing, etc...), he means that you have to live a Christian lifestyle, not a sinful one. Get it? Works do not become faith, works spawn from your faith.

 

[Ratiocination]

James points toward how a lot of Christians were living back then. They would accept Christ, but then live in a sinful lifestyle. They didn't "walk the talk". James isn't saying you have to do works(tithing, witnessing, etc...), he means that you have to live a Christian lifestyle, not a sinful one. Get it? Works do not become faith, works spawn from your faith.

Exactly, JW's don't teach any different! Living a christian lifestyle, as you put it, means 'working' hard to steer clear of danger spiritually, doing the will of God, is a 'work', simply confessing Christ is not enough!

Richard

 

[ChrisManuel]

Jesus Christ is the life giving Spirit of which we must partake of. He is the bread from heaven that we must eat. There is no way to be an overcomer in this life without a real and vital connection in the Spirit. The only way for His Spirit to commune with our spirit is if we are born again of his Spirit. Ezekiel 36:25-36 is not just about Israel but for all who have the faith of Abraham. Just look around you at the filth and immorality and tell me it isn't affecting the JW's. The enemy of our souls is attacking our families with greater intensity than ever before. Simply reading the bible will not be enough to fend off the evils of our culture. Too many Christians today are being deceived by the complacent church. There is an urgency in my family to do more than just barely make it through. My wife is a worship leader and my children are maturing in the Lord beyond their peers. We pray and worship together often. Without a total dependence on the living God we would be washed out into this dark world and be just like everybody else. But that won't happen!

freedom project

 

[Ratiocination]

Jesus Christ is the life giving Spirit of which we must partake of. He is the bread from heaven that we must eat. There is no way to be an overcomer in this life without a real and vital connection in the Spirit. The only way for His Spirit to commune with our spirit is if we are born again of his Spirit. Ezekiel 36:25-36 is not just about Israel but for all who have the faith of Abraham. Just look around you at the filth and immorality and tell me it isn't affecting the JW's. The enemy of our souls is attacking our families with greater intensity than ever before. Simply reading the bible will not be enough to fend off the evils of our culture. Too many Christians today are being deceived by the complacent church. There is an urgency in my family to do more than just barely make it through. My wife is a worship leader and my children are maturing in the Lord beyond their peers. We pray and worship together often. Without a total dependence on the living God we would be washed out into this dark world and be just like everybody else. But that won't happen!

freedom project

Thanks for the response...
I've noticed you do this alot in other threads! If you make a point and someone addresses that point fully, then you should have the kindness to return the favour.
Maybe, the witness that was in your living room didn't think you were part of the 144,000, so maybe he didn't feel the need to mention the 'born again' issue with you.
The texts from Revelation mention those that have indeed 'washed themselves white' without being 'born again'.

A humble servant of God will expound the scriptures when asked, so please, expound them to me....

With love
Richard

 

[gort]

What are Christian works anyway?

Richard...

Does real christian works require membership in your church to be saved? This question includes both this life and the next.

 

[Ratiocination]

Does real christian works require membership in your church to be saved? This question includes both this life and the next.

The bible answers, yes!

(Hebrews 10:23-25) 23 Let us hold fast the public declaration [work] of our hope without wavering, for he is faithful that promised. 24 And let us consider one another to incite [work] to love and fine works, 25 not forsaking [work] the gathering of ourselves together, as some have the custom, but encouraging one another [work], and all the more so as YOU behold [faith] the day drawing near.
[] added....

Yes, we should be part of a congregation with the same attitude as us to be able to work in an organized way under the leadership of Christ to help others learn and accept the truth...

Thanks for the reply....
Richard

 

[ChrisManuel]

And so the rest of us are all heathen destined for hell?

freedom project

 

[Ratiocination]

And so the rest of us are all heathen destined for hell?

freedom project

There you go again! 'Hell' is not our doctrine. Satan threatens people with things such as 'hell'.
Can you respond to my post properly [post 4], you have the responsibility of having a family, you owe it to them...

Richard

 

[ChrisManuel]

Does real christian works require membership in your church to be saved? This question includes both this life and the next.

The Bible answers yes! Was your response. Again we piddle around with pointless argument. The question was do real christian works require membership in your church to be saved. The proper answer is no. There is no elite group that God has put in place that membership is a requirement. You cannot find a verse to support that argument. Besides the fact that the end of the question "to be saved" means there is an alternative which would mean "to be lost" The Jehovah's Witness have their own bible to avoid so many contradictions with the christian Bible. In my last post, I only meant to emphasize the importance of being born again to escape the evils of this world while Richard thought this was senseless discussion since only the 144,000 will get born again. In the last 2000 years, how many JW's do you think made it in to the born again class? Since Charles Taz Russel started the movement in 1914 or was it a little earlier, I have forgotten the date. The point is they did not exist before Russel so there must be other denominations in the elect group. Mmmm

freedom project

 

[Ratiocination]

The Bible answers yes! Was your response. Again we piddle around with pointless argument. The question was do real christian works require membership in your church to be saved. The proper answer is no. There is no elite group that God has put in place that membership is a requirement. You cannot find a verse to support that argument.

What if I can find a verse, or an argument, or an entire logical demonstration of only one elite group being saved out of the entire human race?
Would you accept it? Or have you already made up your mind?

Besides the fact that the end of the question "to be saved" means there is an alternative which would mean "to be lost" The Jehovah's Witness have their own bible to avoid so many contradictions with the christian Bible.

How about I only use your version then?

In my last post, I only meant to emphasize the importance of being born again to escape the evils of this world while Richard thought this was senseless discussion....

No, I didn't think this was senseless discussion, that's why I said it was the most important thing you will ever understand! Did you miss what I said?

since only the 144,000 will get born again. In the last 2000 years, how many JW's do you think made it in to the born again class? Since Charles Taz Russel started the movement in 1914 or was it a little earlier, I have forgotten the date. The point is they did not exist before Russel so there must be other denominations in the elect group. Mmmm

Yes, a big misunderstanding of scripture, The Jews were called Jehovah's Witnesses in Isaiah 43:10, the christians fullfiulled this even more so, Jesus was the foremost one of Jehovahs witnesses.
And you still haven't address my previous post properly. The more you avoid it the less likley it seems you really know what you believe. I've spent years learning your side of the argument, that's why I don;t believe it!
It's as Jesus said in John 17:3, 'Knowledge leads to everlasting life' [paraphrased], try it! Look at what I wrote honestly.


Love
Richard

 

[gort]

The bible answers, yes!

(Hebrews 10:23-25) 23 Let us hold fast the public declaration [work] of our hope without wavering, for he is faithful that promised. 24 And let us consider one another to incite [work] to love and fine works, 25 not forsaking [work] the gathering of ourselves together, as some have the custom, but encouraging one another [work], and all the more so as YOU behold [faith] the day drawing near.
[] added....

Yes, we should be part of a congregation with the same attitude as us to be able to work in an organized way under the leadership of Christ to help others learn and accept the truth...

Thanks for the reply....
Richard

actually the bible answers, No. You make the statement in your OP that it is the blood of Christ that saves and with your answer you have impinged the added work of church membership to salvation.

Works have no salvific value.

To say that public declaration is a work, then I will ask, How much public declaration is required? Do you have a quota for that? To say that any work is required, it then becomes an issue of, How much is enough?

We're not saved in corporate fashion, but individually through Christ Jesus. As you go from door to door to publicly declare your confession, ponder if it is perhaps the organization you belong to that you are confessing?

 

[Ratiocination]

actually the bible answers, No.

No, There were not many 'arks', but only one, there were not many 'jews' but only one. There was only one Christain organization in the first century, paul warned against imposters! Jehovah has always taught through one 'nation'.

You make the statement in your OP that it is the blood of Christ that saves and with your answer you have impinged the added work of church membership to salvation.

Works have no salvific value.

You can reply to my post as long as you don't address it! I showed you from the scriptures something that you seemed to have ignored. Paul admonished us to be part of a team...

To say that public declaration is a work, then I will ask, How much public declaration is required? Do you have a quota for that? To say that any work is required, it then becomes an issue of, How much is enough?

It's a demonstration of faith! So you question should really be... How much faith is required? I'm sorry but you can't change the bible to suit your christian lifestyle.

We're not saved in corporate fashion, but individually through Christ Jesus. As you go from door to door to publicly declare your confession, ponder if it is perhaps the organization you belong to that you are confessing?

The fact is that, yes, i belong to the same organization that Christ established, we will not be saved in 'corporate fashion' but individually according to our faith.

Thanks Richard....

 

[Girder of Loins]

Exactly, JW's don't teach any different! Living a christian lifestyle, as you put it, means 'working' hard to steer clear of danger spiritually, doing the will of God, is a 'work', simply confessing Christ is not enough!

Richard

No, simply confessing Christ is enough. because from that, he changes you, and the Holy Spirit works on you. You do nothing other than listen to the Spirit. It requires no works, no actions. You just need to listen and obey.

 

[gort]

No, There were not many 'arks', but only one, there were not many 'jews' but only one. There was only one Christain organization in the first century, paul warned against imposters! Jehovah has always taught through one 'nation'.

that "nation" is called the "elect".

You can reply to my post as long as you don't address it! I showed you from the scriptures something that you seemed to have ignored. Paul admonished us to be part of a team...

Paul may admonish being part of team, but such is not salvific at all. You have added such works to Grace by faith. Paul also wrote:

Eph_2:8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

It's a demonstration of faith! So you question should really be... How much faith is required? I'm sorry but you can't change the bible to suit your christian lifestyle.

Well then, let's go to the top of the How much faith is required goal post and do as Jesus admonished another to sell all he had and give it to the poor. If you really want to put a tag on how much faith is required then do so, sell all you have and give it to the poor and then you may have the right AND my deepest respect when you say, I'm sorry but you can't change the bible to suit your christian lifestyle. Until then, well, let's face it, it won't happen. You won't do it, and neither will I, so anything inbetween is a moot point. I don't see the Watchtower selling all it has neither.

You see, if you really want to put works in the equation of salvation, which you are; equating faith with works, then you need to become as Jesus was, with no place to sleep, no monies, no nothing. And you won't, and you can't do as such. The perfect example is before us in Jesus Christ and you can't match it.

As to how much faith is required, take a good look at the Thief on the Cross and you have your real answer. He did'nt have any time at all to do any works.

The fact is that, yes, i belong to the same organization that Christ established, we will not be saved in 'corporate fashion' but individually according to our faith.

I think the mormons have that claim prior to the time of your church.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

No, There were not many 'arks', but only one, there were not many 'jews' but only one. There was only one Christain organization in the first century, paul warned against imposters! Jehovah has always taught through one 'nation'.




You can reply to my post as long as you don't address it! I showed you from the scriptures something that you seemed to have ignored. Paul admonished us to be part of a team...


It's a demonstration of faith! So you question should really be... How much faith is required? I'm sorry but you can't change the bible to suit your christian lifestyle.


The fact is that, yes, i belong to the same organization that Christ established, we will not be saved in 'corporate fashion' but individually according to our faith.

Thanks Richard....

Jesus said learn of me.
Jesus said to whom much is givin' much is required.
The woman who anointed Jesus' feet showed her faith by those works.
Jesus said her faith saved her go in peace.She loved much, because she had been forgiven much.
God only knows and Christ of course, how much faith he gives each one of us.
So there is no set amount of works to do.
Some will bring forth 30,and some was it 60? and some an hundred fold.
Good works are obeying Christ, "sermon on the mount" where he also said why do you call me Lord, Lord, and dont do the things which I say?

 

[msmorality]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]From here [/FONT]679 [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]
[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Hi, I read the above misunderstanding from the 'Trinity = God' thread and wanted to explain the bible's position clearly.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif](James[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]2:17)[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] Thus, too, faith, if it does not have works, is dead in itself.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]JW's know that the blood of Jesus is what saves and without it we have no hope. We know that we must have faith to be able to fully accept that sacrifice, yet, the expression of that faith is good works, without which you have no real faith anyway.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Thoughts?[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Richard...[/FONT]

The way I look at it is , genuine faith is the driving force to and result of love for fellow man. And works are evidence of a living , growing and dynamic faith. Or

Salvation is a one time event, but reforming and transforming is lifelong, good works must be the goal to become a new creation through faith in Christ..