Faith without works, is dead...?

[Neogaia777]

We've all heard the law people tote this, (faith without works is dead) but mainly what they are saying is that there whould be fruit of your faith, that they can see...

"You show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show my faith by my works..."

Saying basically, there should be evidence of your faith, some good works, if your faith is genuine...

And, they are right, but, who are we to then judge those works or fruits, when they should or shouldn't be, and the timing of such fruits, the stages of a persons life, that kind of thing...

Who are we to judge another man's walk with God...?

Comments...?

God Bless!

 

[Albion]

Well, obviously, James was judging, just as you explained. He wrote an entire epistle on that very point.

 

[Eloy Craft]

He say's 'show'....since faith apart from works would not be seen....faith apart from works are......thinking about Jesus?

 

[Neogaia777]

Well, obviously, James was judging, just as you explained. He wrote an entire epistle on that very point.

I'm trying to figure out if we have the right, or even can, or should judge some things or not...?

God Bless!

 

[Eloy Craft]

I think James is trying to call Christians to examine their own faith...we know whether or not out faith is what initiates our actions..not anyone else I think

 

[Albion]

He say's 'show'....since faith apart from works would not be seen....faith apart from works are......thinking about Jesus?

I hope we don't fall to arguing over this, but James in his epistle didn't simply recommend that a person of faith show his light by his good deeds. He was saying that IF the faith you claim doesn't produce a changed lifestyle, what you claim as faith isn't really faith.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

We've all heard the law people tote this, (faith without works is dead) but mainly what they are saying is that there whould be fruit of your faith, that they can see...

"You show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show my faith by my works..."

Saying basically, there should be evidence of your faith, some good works, if your faith is genuine...

And, they are right, but, who are we to then judge those works or fruits, when they should or shouldn't be, and the timing of such fruits, the stages of a persons life, that kind of thing...

Who are we to judge another man's walk with God...?

Comments...?

God Bless!

One could say that they are preaching the gospel in the power of the Holy Spirit, but without accompanying signs and wonders. So, does this mean that the preacher is saying they have faith without the accompanying works?

It was said of Paul in Acts that he went around preaching the gospel with signs and wonders. He also said that the kingdom of God was not in word but in power, and that when he is to visit the Corinthian church he wants to see, not just the word but the power. This means that Paul was putting his faith into action with supernatural works, and that he expected the Corinthians to do the same.

Just sayin'... Another take on the verse.

 

[Neogaia777]

One could say that they are preaching the gospel in the power of the Holy Spirit, but without accompanying signs and wonders. So, does this mean that the preacher is saying they have faith without the accompanying works?

It was said of Paul in Acts that he went around preaching the gospel with signs and wonders. He also said that the kingdom of God was not in word but in power, and that when he is to visit the Corinthian church he wants to see, not just the word but the power. This means that Paul was putting his faith into action with supernatural works, and that he expected the Corinthians to do the same.

Just sayin'... Another take on the verse.

Paul sought to know the power in word of those that get puffed-up and will most often put on a superior air...

 

[Neogaia777]

I hope we don't fall to arguing over this, but James in his epistle didn't simply recommend that a person of faith show his light by his good deeds. He was saying that IF the faith you claim doesn't produce a changed lifestyle, what you claim as faith isn't really faith.

My question is can we judge that righteous lifestyle...?

I mean biker Jim over there with a hundred tattoo's sitting on his Harely could be more righteous than preacher James, over there in the church pulpit, that kind of thing...

 

[St_Worm2]

I'm trying to figure out if we have the right, or even can, or should judge some things or not...?

The Lord seems to do more than imply that are to judge some things, doesn't He? (notice that Matthew 7:6 comes right on the heels of the most famous "Do Not Judge" verse in the Bible) Here is v6, as well a couple of other examples.

Matthew 7
6 Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.

15 Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
16 You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?
17 So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.
18 A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 So then, you will know them by their fruits.

John 7
24 Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.​

And we are definitely told to judge ourselves .. e.g. 2 Corinthians 13:5; 1 Corinthians 11:28.

--David

 

[Neogaia777]

The Lord seems to do more than imply that are to judge some things, doesn't He? (notice that Matthew 7:6 comes right on the heels of the most famous "Do Not Judge" verse in the Bible) Here is v6, as well a couple of other examples.

Matthew 7
6 Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.

15 Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
16 You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?
17 “So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.
18 “A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
19 “Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 “So then, you will know them by their fruits.

John 7
24 Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.​

And we are definitely told to judge ourselves .. e.g. 2 Corinthians 13:5; 1 Corinthians 11:28.

--David

How are we to judge...? Can it be by a written code, or not...?

 

[Albion]

My question is can we judge that righteous lifestyle...?

I mean biker Jim over there with a hundred tattoo's sitting on his Harely could be more righteous than preacher James, over there in the church pulpit, that kind of thing...

That does clarify your earlier post. I would still think that we can judge whether or not it is a righteous lifestyle, since we have Scriptural guidelines to go by. Obviously, judging by external appearances such as the tattoo example you used is questionable, but if the judgment is made on behavior, I'd say that's different.

 

[Neogaia777]

That does clarify your earlier post. I would still think that we can judge whether or not it is a righteous lifestyle, since we have Scriptural guidelines to go by. Obviously, judging by external appearances such as the tattoo example you used is questionable, but if the judgment is made on behavior, I'd say that's different.

What is righteous behavior?, what's it look like?, also what does it look like and how should it look like in the face of unrighteousness?, it may not exactly be or mean or seem, very humble, lowly or even very kind under those circumstances most especially...

 

[Neogaia777]

That does clarify your earlier post. I would still think that we can judge whether or not it is a righteous lifestyle, since we have Scriptural guidelines to go by. Obviously, judging by external appearances such as the tattoo example you used is questionable, but if the judgment is made on behavior, I'd say that's different.

Should or can we judge, based on temporary behavior....?

 

[Eloy Craft]

I hope we don't fall to arguing over this, but James in his epistle didn't simply recommend that a person of faith show his light by his good deeds. He was saying that IF the faith you claim doesn't produce a changed lifestyle, what you claim as faith isn't really faith.

I sure believe that

 

[Albion]

What is righteous behavior?, what's it look like?,

It looks like the Ten Commandments and the Sermon on the Mount and the rest of what God taught Men to do and not do, as recorded for us in the Bible.

 

[Eloy Craft]

Apparently works of faith are invisible but works of love aren't. Love seems to be what distinguishes works of faith. Jesus said love for one another distinguishes disciples of Christ from the rest of the world. Apparently we receive credit by works of Christ's love. These must be the works that do not perish and follow us to heaven. Luke 6 32 -35 describes what it looks like
Luke 6
32 “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. 33 If you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. 34 If you lend to those from whom you hope to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to receive as much again. 35 But love your enemies, do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return.

John 13:34-35
I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”

Galatians 5:5-7
5 For through the Spirit, by faith, we eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything; the only thing that counts is faith working through love.
1 Cor. 13
and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.

Rev 14-13
And I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who from now on die in the Lord.” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them.”

 

[Neogaia777]

Apparently works of faith are invisible but works of love aren't. Love seems to be what distinguishes works of faith. Jesus said love for one another distinguishes disciples of Christ from the rest of the world. Apparently we receive credit by works of Christ's love. These must be the works that do not perish and follow us to heaven. Luke 6 32 -35 describes what it looks like
Luke 6
32 “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. 33 If you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. 34 If you lend to those from whom you hope to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to receive as much again. 35 But love your enemies, do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return.

John 13:34-35
I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”

Galatians 5:5-7
5 For through the Spirit, by faith, we eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything; the only thing that counts is faith working through love.
1 Cor. 13
and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.

Rev 14-13
And I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who from now on die in the Lord.” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them.”

Sounds like we need to redefine or change our thinking about what exactly "obedience" is and what it looks like, cause I think many have gotten it wrong...

There seems to be a "higher law" at work here... With the N.C.

 

[Eloy Craft]

Sounds like we need to redefine or change our thinking about what exactly "obedience" is and what it looks like, cause I think many have gotten it wrong...

There seems to be a "higher law" at work here... With the N.C.

Yes, a higher law that is forgotten. The words aren't forgotten. We all know the saying " love one another as I have loved you" We all project an image of Jesus' loving others onto it. It almost always falls short of the image Jesus gave us. To keep loving someone who isn't going to love us back.. Returning evil with good. To obey the command to love when someone who isn't able to pay you back asks to borrow some money. To rejoice when persecuted knowing it's an opportunity to forgive, because in that joy Jesus' love is made visible and enemies seek forgiveness. Yeah, it's a field of opportunity a lot of Christians have gotten wrong. Neogaia, thank you for the comment. I learned from it. and the question from the OP too.

John 2:4-6
4 Whoever says, “I have come to know him,” but does not obey his commandments, is a liar, and in such a person the truth does not exist; 5 but whoever obeys his word, truly in this person the love of God has reached perfection.

 

[Ron Gurley]

Faith and works go hand in hand. James 2:22

A man cannot know another man’s spiritual relationship with God. However, Christ-followers should judge the “fruit” / “spiritual works” of the brethren. See Galatians 5;

You shall know them by their fruit. See also John 15,,,God wants His children to bear much fruit.