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Faith - Up to God Entirely?

Discussion in 'Non-denominational' started by Chris†opher Paul, Jan 15, 2003.

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  1. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

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    I can't speak for anyone else but I will offer my opinion.  I do not believe our faith just grows on it's own.  Nor do I think that what we do to nurture it is the sole cause for the growth of our faith.  I think that we should do as we are told, study the Scriptures, meditate on the Word, pray without ceasing.  All of these things help our faith to grow.  God also sovereignly orchestrates things to bring about situations which will cause our faith to grow.  Sometimes that is withholding His grace for us to experience tribulation.  Sometimes it is the compassion and love that we receive from another when experiencing trial.  It's just that God will not let one of His own children stray so far as to be lost.  Many Christians have experienced times of their lives when they felt very far from God.  Look at Job.  We must just trust that God is conforming us through our trials.  That's why we can count it all joy (James 1:2).  It's not because we're happy for the problem we're having.  It's because we happy and we understand that what God is accomplishing through that problem will benefit us.  You ever go through a trial only to have your faith strengthened because of that trial?  That's what God brings about.

    God bless 
     
  2. Chris†opher Paul

    Chris†opher Paul Based on a True Story

    +4
    I agree. We must cooperate with God's grace to grow in our faith.

    So do all agree with how I stated that?
     
  3. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

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    Not to sound argumentative, because I'm truly not trying to nit-pick but I'd say "participate" instead of "cooperate."

    God bless
     
  4. Chris†opher Paul

    Chris†opher Paul Based on a True Story

    +4
    Ok, participate. That is still an active word. Its an action, right? We must do something to participate in it.
     
  5. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

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    Absolutely.  I don't think faith will just grow by standing around doing nothing, at least not to a noticeable degree.
     
  6. Chris†opher Paul

    Chris†opher Paul Based on a True Story

    +4
    Yes. And this is what James meant by having the right kind of faith, right? Faith without works is dead, because true faith should produce works. The works complete the faith, right?
     
  7. sierraf

    sierraf F.R.O.G.

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    According to the scripture God can't "withhold" his Grace. It has already been freely given to all mankind through Jesus at the Cross. (II Cor. 5:21,Titus 2:11-12, I Tim. 1:14, II Tim. 1:19)

    Grace is God's action against sin, faith is man's acceptance of the Gospel (the good news, the record of God's Grace)
     
  8. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

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    Absolutely.

    Absolutely not.  The works show that the faith is true saving faith.  They do not "complete" the faith.  The faith is complete if it produces works.  If it does not produce works it is not true faith.

    God bless
     
  9. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

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    Two things.  First, what???!!!  So God cannot withhold His own grace?  Why is that?  Is He obligated to extend His grace to all people at all times?  Second, there is no 2 Timothy 1:19.  18 is the last verse in 2 Timothy.

    God bless
     
  10. Chris†opher Paul

    Chris†opher Paul Based on a True Story

    +4
    Ok, I see your perspective now, thanks.

    But how does your statement jive with this:

    James 2:22
    "You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works."
     
  11. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

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    The full outworking of faith is seen in works.  True faith always produces fruit.  Faith and works may be distinguished, but never separated or divorced.

    I know it's not a Bible you give credence to, but my Bible, which is in the NKJV, says this:

    James 2:22
    Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?

    God bless
     
  12. sierraf

    sierraf F.R.O.G.

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    Sorry for they typo it is 2 Tim 1:9. And no God does not take His Grace from us. He can not take back Christ and what was done at the Cross for all mankind. We can however fall from the Grace of God. We stand in it we can therefore fall from it. But God does not withold it from our grasp.
     
  13. sierraf

    sierraf F.R.O.G.

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    sorry double post.
     
  14. Chris†opher Paul

    Chris†opher Paul Based on a True Story

    +4
    Wow, we have different wording for this crucial verse Ref!
     
  15. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

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    Okay but 2 Timothy 1:9 doesn't mean that God gives His salvitic grace to all mankind.  And the "us" in that verse is not everyone.  It's referring to Christians.  That letter was written to Timothy:

    2 Timothy 1:1,2
    Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,

    To Timothy, a beloved son:

    Timothy is not a representative of the heathens.  He is a child of God.  If you and I, Christians, were talking and I said, this MB is a great way for us to express our faith in God would that mean that I mean every single person that posts on this MB?

    Not all grace is salvitic.  Grace is the vehicle to bring what God deems to give.  For our salvation, that grace brings faith.  It is not always the case.  God's grace rains on the just and the unjust.  However, that is not always salvitic grace.

    God bless
     
  16. Chris†opher Paul

    Chris†opher Paul Based on a True Story

    +4
    Then why do you say 'Faith Alone'
     
  17. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

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    I think this difference is even less staggering than the one from yesterday about whether Esau "can" overcome his sinfulness versus "must" overcome.  What do you think we can do about that?  I think that the power of words is capable of us understanding the same things entirely different ways.  Would there be a difference to you if I said, "s0uljah, you must pay for a ticket to go to that movie" versus, "s0uljah, you can pay for that ticket to go to that movie?"  One, can, implies ability.  The other, must, implies responsibility.  Huge difference.

    God bless
     
  18. sierraf

    sierraf F.R.O.G.

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    If find no scriptural reference to two different types of Gods grace.

    God made man. God wants man to be with him. Sin separates man from God. Jesus bore the sin of mankind at the Cross, this is the grace that allows a way for man to come to God. God will not take back the Cross, and the sacrifice of his Son upon that Cross.
     
  19. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

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    Because it is the grace of God in the form of faith, which is a gift from Him not something that we have inherent to us, that saves us.  The works just show that faith to be true, perfecting, salvitic faith.  They don't add to the saving faith.  Saving faith is shown by works.  If there are no works then it isn't saving faith.  It's just someone saying, "Yeah, I have faith."  My Pastor put it like this last night, "If I wanted to sit down and I said I had faith that a chair would hold me up but I continued to stand by the chair instead of sitting that would show that I didn't really have faith that the chair could hold me up.  Therefore, it's no faith at all."

    It's an analogy so it may not hold the full conotations of the verse but hopefully you get what I'm trying to say.

    God bless
     
  20. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

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    Okay.  I'll find you some.

    Consequently, if your spouse is yelling at you and God gives you the grace to respond in love does that mean you just received salvitic grace again?

    God bless
     
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