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Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by fhansen, May 2, 2019.

  1. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

    I tend to think that the one right or just thing the thief could do was to believe, and profess that belief. And this was an expression of love for Jesus at the same time.
  2. bcbsr

    bcbsr Newbie

    Rom 2:7 "To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life."

    This verse is frequently utilized to advocate a salvation by works soteriology. Yes in that verse Paul is talking about salvation by works. But notice the context. From Romans 1:18 to Romans 3:20 Paul is talking about justification by law, including that verse. But his conclusion is:

    "Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus." Rom 3:20-24

    So right there he transitions from talking about justification by the law to justification by faith apart from the law. No one is qualified to be justified by Rom 2:7 because no one lives up to it. No one persists in doing good. All end up sinning. Sure "good people" will be saved because they are good. But under such a principle,"There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one." Rom 3:10-12
  3. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

    Thanks for that clarification. I was more unclear about what you were meaning to say than I was taking exception to it. :)
  4. Gr8Grace

    Gr8Grace Well-Known Member

    United States

    Every religion in the world fights this truth of The Lord Jesus Christ...........It is why 99% of the world won't believe it and HATES His Grace and mercy.

    New American Standard Bible
    "If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you.
  5. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 this statement is not true Supporter

    United States
    Other Religion
    Legal Union (Other)
    Pastor made a similar point years ago when I was struggling as an inquirer.

    People crucified Jesus because of the grace he offered. And self-proclaimed guardians of morality are still in the crucifying business today.
  6. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

    Jesus was quoting Ps 69:4 when He made that statement. Mankind has hated God from the beginning, when Adam first rebelled against and then also hid from Him. Man prefers darkness to light, where our deeds might go unseen; God interferes with our sin and the pride that so often drives it.

    Jesus showed the true face of innocence and humility and love; Jesus showed the true face of God-and that’s what man hated because that light showed up our darkness by contrast. But man can finally become jaded of the darkness, especially as the light is made known to him, and become attracted to that light as he should be. While faith is the first step back towards the light, we must then walk in that light ourselves, and continue to, we must walk as children of light, not darkness.
    Last edited: May 8, 2019
  7. Gr8Grace

    Gr8Grace Well-Known Member

    United States
    Like I said, 99% of religion will HATE His Grace and Mercy. And religion will always focus on what the creature is doing...............and not on what the Creator DID.

    It's so simple a child can figure it out. Believe and be saved(simple as that.)

    After that secure, eternally secure salvation............that's where the work begins. But salvation is a done deal. Work and be rewarded. Sit on your butt...........discipline,loss of rewards, shame, misery and possible physical death.

    But ALL believers will be in the Kingdom.

    But a worker for salvation will ALWAYS disagree with His truth. And His Grace.
  8. Gr8Grace

    Gr8Grace Well-Known Member

    United States
    And it is 100%. All religion's hate His Grace and mercy.And it is so easy to spot.

    Religion~~ We MUST, We will, Thou shalt, Thou shalt not, I, Me, us, you, they.

    Christianity~~ He did, He died, He suffered, He was forsaken by the Father, He rose again.........for us.
  9. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

    Again, they hated Him because He was pure light and they preferred darkness. They wanted to remain as they were but He challenged their positions. He was perfection; He was God-and they weren't. They knew they would have to do something-different. To give up their pride and turn to Him.

    And yes, to the extent that one knows and loves this light, they don't need to be told what to do; they just do it. And they refrain from sin. But no longer out of a sense of fear or obligation or desire for some reward but out of love. Otherwise they haven't really begun to approach the light.

    And...they can still return back to darkness-Scripture is clear about that. God draws us to Himself. He doesn't force us to come-or to stay.
  10. Gr8Grace

    Gr8Grace Well-Known Member

    United States
    Acts 16:31....Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.

    It is simply trust In the Lord Jesus Christ and His work for us.............And He will save us.

    If one doesn't subscribe to this simple, Biblical FACT..........they are not in the light and prefer the darkness of their religion. And HATE Him and His Grace.
  11. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

    Well. I'm not sure why anyone would hate such a free gift or its Giver as long as they understood what it's about and believed it to be true. The hatred goes deeper than that though. But either way, yes, we must believe in Jesus-Who He is and what He did in order to come into the light. And then we must continue to walk in that light, in that justice or righteousness, as Scripture also continuously warns and admonishes believers to do in a variety of ways. It's not about a one-time act of faith in any case, but about what that faith leads to-and keeps leading us to as we remain in it, as we remain in Christ and He is us. And, again, we also have the freedom to walk away at any time.
  12. Mathetes66

    Mathetes66 Well-Known Member Supporter

    United States
    I thought about stopping posting here in this thread, but for the sake of the rest reading this thread, I need to make some points & clarification. It will be longer because context & harmonization of Scripture needs to be shown & included & it takes time to show what has happened here. So all those reading this please bear with me.

    First of all, your quote above is NOT my paraphrase of John 15. You said that but I DID NOT. If you had been reading all the passages I used, you would see that the ISOLATED sentence you tore out of MY context, is ACTUALLY ONLY A PART OF A SUMMARY of all the passages I shared. IT IS NOT a summary of John 15 at all. So you are the incorrect one here, now that I am clarifying WHAT I meant by what I said.

    Don't PRESUME to know unless you ask a simple question. If you had simply asked, 'is this statement a summary of John 15' I would have told you no as I am doing now. Why? BECAUSE I NEVER mentioned any verse in John 15 in my posting; NOT ONE.

    So WHY would you misrepresent me & push the issue to John 15? Inquiring minds want to know, since that is NOT what I did.

    If you had READ the various passages I used or alluded to, you would see the 'isolated quote' you USED of me was ONLY A SMALL PART OF A SUMMARIZING STATEMENT of Heb 6, Matt 7, the synoptic gospel accounts of the parable of the seed/soil, Luke 10, Phil 4:3, Daniel 12;2 Heb 12, I Pet 5:10, I John 5:10-13, Eph 4:30, Ezek 36:27, 2 Tim 1:14, I Cor 6:16-19, Rom 8:9-15, Gal 4:6, Eph 3:16, etc.

    This is EXACTLY how one misinterprets Scripture, ignoring what was said IN CONTEXT & pulling things out of context & isolating them to make a pretext. In hermeneutics that is called eisogesis.

    Back to inquiring minds want to know: did I even ONCE mention John 15 in my post? No. Yet you took it upon yourself to ASSUME I was commenting on it & then set up a straw argument & said I was mistaken in my summary of John 15. You added that, when I never even mentioned the passage of John 15 or any verse in it. Why did you do all this?

    It was because you had a pre-determined agenda! You wanted to drive the conversation to John 15, thinking that I would have no answers for it. Thus, your AGENDA is now exposed.

    Here is what I ACTUALLY said--IN CONTEXT--& in contrast to what you SELECTIVELY did, pulling one sentence OUT OF THAT CONTEXT for your own agenda & pretext.

    "Here again is the REPETITIOUS PATTERN OF BIBLICAL TEACHING on those who produce fruit, a crop to maturity & those who DON'T produce fruit or a crop, but rather end up producing thorns & thistles. The tares, the thorns & thistles & fruitless branches are thrown into the fire & burned. THESE ARE THE REPROBATE, who do not produce any fruit or crop of any kind. The parable of the seed & the soils is a classic example. Doing a harmony of them in the gospels shows plainly the first three are not saved, only the last soil that produced a crop are the saved."

    There were so many more that I didn't include. The parable of the good seed & bad seed is another. The parable of the good fish & the bad fish is yet another of MANY.

    It should be obvious to all reading, that this is what you did & I never meant what YOU said. You ignored & never addressed all the multitude of passages I shared or alluded to--because you had an agenda. You ignored the WHOLE context of my summary, which tied together all those passages, showing the harmony of Scriptures concerning who & what happens to the bad soils or the branches of THE OLIVE TREE or who are the good seed vs the bad seed, etc. & how Jesus & Scripture identifies each of these.

    Here is another example of your ADDING or taking away from the context & putting things into the text that AREN'T THERE! God warns us in various Scriptures not to add to, take away from, or change His Word, that EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS FROM THE MOUTH OF GOD IS RELEVANT, REVELATIONAL & IMPORTANT & IS THERE FOR A SPECIFIC PURPOSE. (Deut 8:1-4; 2 Tim 3:16,17; Isaiah 55:6-11, etc.)

    You said John 15:1 was irrelevant. Scripture verses above & I showed you otherwise, that it was very relevant as well as vs. 3, which you made a passing comment on & then your agenda was to get to vs. 4. Yet I showed you HOW RELEVANT vss 1 & 3 were & the whole context of those first 3 verses. You never refuted anything I said prior & now here.

    The Father is THE ONE WHO REMOVES THE UNFRUITFUL BRANCHES as well as the One Who in contrast prunes (cleans of all debris) the believing branches, who are already producing fruit, SO THAT THEY WILL PRODUCE MORE FRUIT & MUCH FRUIT.

    Again, the Father is the one WHO UPROOTS the plants who are NOT HIS. Again, the Father is THE ONE WHO GIVES THE BELIEVERS TO THE SON (Jn 17), who prays for them & protects them & preserves them, to be with Him in glory! Hallelujah. So many more verses I could share, in context & in correlation. Here is another harmonizing one. I wish I had more time to discuss Romans 8.

    Romans 8:9-11 But you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, IF IT BE SO that the Spirit of God DWELL IN YOU. Now if any man has not the Spirit of Christ, HE IS NONE OF HIS. And if Christ be IN YOU, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit IS LIFE because of righteousness. But IF the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead DWELL IN YOU, He that raised up Christ from the dead WILL ALSO MAKE ALIVE YOUR MORTAL BODIES BY HIS SPIRIT THAT DWELLS IN YOU.

    If anyone has the Holy Spirit INDWELLING THEM, they are believers & Christ's. Those who don't are NONE OF HIS. And IF the Holy Spirit indwells us (He never leaves us like in the OT nor does Christ leave us either--so many passages can show this--John 14:16) THEN we will be raised from the dead just like Christ was & our new bodies will be alive like Christ's resurrected body, ready for living in glory like Christ.

    Rom 8:28-30 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose. Because whom He did foreknow, He ALSO did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, so that he might be the firstborn AMONG MANY BRETHREN.

    Rom 8:31 Young's Literal Translation AND whom He did fore-appoint, THESE ALSO He did call & whom He did call, THESE ALSO He declared righteous & whom He declared righteous, THESE ALSO He did glorify.

    The same thing Jesus taught in the continuous chapters of John, 13 through 17, are also taught by the Apostle Paul, who received His teaching by direct revelation from Christ Himself. Here he is talking about the same group of believers: those foreknown ahead of time & then pre-appointed & predestined to to be conformed to the image of the Son--they were called & then He declared them righteous when they believed, just like Abraham was credited God's righteousness when he believed, as the father of those who have faith in God.

    Notice all the ALSO'S that make a continuous declaring of what happens to THESE PEOPLE! And these same believers were not only declared righteous in God's eyes (justified before Him, as many Scriptures verify of believers) but we are ALSO to be GLORIFIED as well. That means all THESE will be with Christ IN GLORY & those alive in Christ because of the indwelling Spirit will get glorified, resurrected bodies & will dwell in Christ's kingdom forever. Hallelujah!

    31What shall we then say to these things? If GOD BE FOR US, who can be against us? The obvious answer is no one. When a person received ETERNAL life, that is exactly what it means: this life we have received is for all eternity. It will never stop. And the Holy Spirit, indwelling believers will never leave us but will be with us forever.

    John 14:6 I will ask the Father & another Comforter He will give to you, that He may REMAIN WITH YOU FOREVER.

    Eph 1:11-14 In Him we were also CHOSEN AS GOD'S OWN, having been predestined according to the plan of Him who works out everything by the counsel of His will, in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, WOULD BE FOR THE PRAISE OF HIS GLORY. And in Him, having heard & believed the word of truth—the gospel of your salvation—you were SEALED with the promised Holy Spirit, that Spirit being a pledge (earnest, down payment) & foretaste of our inheritance, in anticipation of its full redemption--the inheritance which He has purchased to be specially His for the extolling of His glory.

    Eph 4:30 Neither be grieving the Holy Spirit of God, for you have been SEALED IN HIM for the DAY OF REDEMPTION.

    2 Cor 1:20-23 Now it is God who establishes both us and you in Christ. He anointed us, placed His SEAL on us & put His Spirit in our hearts as a PLEDGE of what is to come.

    Greek Parsing: V-AIP-3P -- Verb - Aorist Indicative Passive - 3rd Person Plural

    'You were sealed' 'esphragisthēte', parsing of the Greek word used in this sentence: Part of Speech - Person, Tense, Mood, Voice – Case, Number, Gender. Here sealed is, to use normal parsing abbreviation terminology--V-AIP-2P. The Greek word is a verb, in the aorist tense, with the indicative mood & the passive voice. It is in the 3rd person & in the plural.

    From spragizw, old verb, common in LXX & papyri for setting a seal to prevent opening ( Daniel 6:17 ), in place of signature ( 1 Kings 21:18 ). Papyri examples show a wide legal use to give validity to documents, to guarantee genuineness of articles as sealing sacks & chests, etc. (Deissmann, Bible Studies, p. 238; Moulton & Milligan's Vocabulary)

    ἀρραβὼν (arrabōn) Noun - Nominative Masculine Singular; Strong's Greek 728: Of Hebrew origin; a pledge, i.e. Part of the purchase-money or property given in advance as security for the rest. (to come)

    This word only occurs 3X in the NT & all refer to the Holy Spirit being the evidence of God's pledge, promise & guarantee to bring about us as His purchased possession & redemption in Christ--the glorifying of His declared righteous & adopted sons--to receive their inheritance in Christ. Three is a significant number showing Divine completeness. Here all three usages of the word refer directly to the Holy Spirit being that very thing! God keeps His promises! He follows through with His pledge, to do what He said He would do.

    Robertson's Word Pictures in the NT
    An earnest (arrabwn). See 2 Cor 1:22 for discussion of arrabwn. Here "of promise" (th epaggelia) is added to the Holy Spirit to show that Gentiles are also included in God's promise of salvation. Of our inheritance (th klhronomia hmwn). God's gift of the Holy Spirit is the pledge & first payment for the final inheritance in Christ. Of God's own possession (peripoihsew).

    The word God's is not in the Greek, but is implied. Late and rare word (from peripoiew, to make a survival) with the notion of obtaining ( 1 Thess 5:9 ; 2 Thess 3:14 ) and then of preserving (so in the papyri). So in 1 Pet 2:9 ; Heb 10:39 & here. God has purchased us back to Himself. The sealing EXTENDS (ei) TO the redemption & to the glory of God.

    I need to make a very important point here on correctly interpreting Scripture. First of all, John 15 IS a specific teaching for the 11 apostles--but Jesus' teaching them DID NOT START IN CH. 15! It was in the middle of what Jesus was continually teaching them--STARTING in John 13 & NOT COMPLETING IT UNTIL John 17.

    THEN He was arrested & they all scattered. He taught, starting in the upper room, then they left there & were traveling across the valley to the Garden of Gethsemane & the Mt of Olives, all the while Jesus was teaching them as they followed Him.

    One CANNOT ignore the whole context of Jesus' teaching in those 5 CONTINUOUS chapters without making incorrect conclusions. You said there were no tares, because you ONLY ISOLATED CH. 15. That was your agenda, as was shown.

    In the whole context of ch. 13-17, tares ARE mentioned SEVERAL TIMES, showing the continual context in those chapters, Jesus talking about the same things! And yes there was a tare, that had DEPARTED & part of Jesus continuous teaching TO THE 11 APOSTLES INCLUDED THE ONE WHO WOULD BETRAY HIM, the son of PERDITION, contrasting him as lost vs the other 11 that were chosen to bear fruit & were saved & would persevere & be in Christ's kingdom with Him, judging the 12 tribes of Israel.

    They were specially CHOSEN for this. It cannot be ignored. Jesus' teaching cannot be ignored. All corresponding & harmonizing passages ALL FIT TOGETHER to bring us the WHOLE COUNSEL of God concerning this issue & the topic of this thread.

    Am I isolating that like yourself? No. Because what Jesus said in the beginning of His teaching in Ch. 13 about Judas Iscariot being reprobate, a son of perdition & the rest chosen, carries through this continuous teaching about those who bear no fruit or have no life in them. Jesus again repeats the same thing in chapter 17, as He finishes up his continual teaching, just before He is arrested & taken away & the disciples scatter.

    John 17:9-12, 20-25 I ask on their behalf. I do NOT ask on behalf of THE WORLD, but on behalf of those YOU HAVE GIVEN ME BECAUSE THEY ARE YOURS. All I have is Yours & all You have is Mine & in them I have been glorified. 11I will no longer be in the world, but they are in the world & I am coming to You.

    Holy Father, PROTECT THEM by Your name, the name You gave Me, so that THEY MAY BE ONE AS WE ARE ONE. 12While I was with them, I PROTECTED & PRESERVED THEM BY YOUR NAME, the name You gave Me.

    NOT ONE OF THEM HAS BEEN LOST--EXCEPT--THE SON OF PERDITION--SO THAT THE SCRIPTURE WOULD BE FULFILLED. Not one of them is lost, fallen away, sons of perdition, EXCEPT ONLY ONE. The rest have already been chosen, prayed for, protected & preserved until they enter the kingdom of God to judge the 12 tribes of Israel. The Father CONTINUES TO PROTECT THEM after the Son departs the earth & returns to heaven.

    Is this consistent with what Jesus taught back at the start of His continuous discourse in ch. 13 & also taught in the parallel to John 13, in Luke 22 for example? Yes. First let us look at John 13 again for a reminder, finish John 17 & then look at the parallel passage in Luke 22. (to be continued)
  13. Mathetes66

    Mathetes66 Well-Known Member Supporter

    United States
    John 13:10,11 Jesus told him, “Whoever has already bathed needs only to wash his feet & he will be completely clean. And you are clean, though not all of you.” For He knew who would betray Him. That is why He said, “Not all of you are clean.”

    vss 18-21 I AM NOT SPEAKING ABOUT ALL OF YOU; I KNOW WHOM I HAVE CHOSEN. But this is to fulfill the Scripture: ‘The one who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.’ I am telling you now before it happens, so that when it comes to pass, YOU WILL BELIEVE that I AM. 20Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever receives the one I send receives Me & whoever receives Me receives the One who sent Me.”

    After Jesus had said this, He became troubled in spirit & testified, “Truly, truly, I tell you, one of you will betray Me...” And when Judas had taken the piece of bread, Satan entered into him...& Judas went out into the night. Little children, I am with you only a little while longer. You will look for Me & as I said to the Jews, so now I say to you: ‘Where I am going, you cannot come.’

    “Lord, where are You going?” Simon Peter asked. Jesus answered, “Where I am going, you cannot follow Me NOW but you WILL FOLLOW ME LATER.” This once again talks about eternal security in Christ of the 11 & also those who are indwelt by the Holy Spirit--they will indeed follow Christ after into paradise in heaven.

    Where was Jesus going? He was first going to Sheol/Hades, in the compartment there where the believers were gathered after physically dying, in paradise or what Jesus also called Abraham's bosom or what some OT prophets called Gan Eden (the garden of Eden) or the Jews called the Abode of Bliss. (Various verses like Psalm 16 or Acts 2 & 13 talk about Jesus' soul being in Sheol/Hades as well as what Jesus taught.)

    Why wouldn't the 11 not go there or cannot go there? It was because when Jesus was resurrected & then ascended, Scripture says, 'That is WHY it says, when he ascended on high, He led captives away...' (Eph 4:8-10) Jesus TOOK all those captive (held by death's power) OT believers in Him & those in the NT who died prior to his resurrection, UP INTO HEAVEN WITH HIM, that were in paradise. Jesus took the whole of paradise & all in it up to heaven!

    Paradise no longer remained in Sheol/Hades & those in it. How do we know this? Because of the above Scripture plus Paul's testimony that he went to Paradise after Christ's ascension. It was no longer in Hades but now it was in the third heaven!

    So the 11 apostles cannot go to Hades like Christ did, to the compartment called paradise BECAUSE IT IS NO LONGER THERE. Those dying after Christ's ascension (including the 11) would go directly into the presence of the Lord in paradise in the third heaven! 'To be absent from the body is to be present from the Lord.

    As soon as Lazarus died, he was carried by the angels to Abrahams bosom or side. As soon at the certain rich man, Dives, died, the next conscious thought found his soul in Hades, & it was in torment. Now after Christ's ascension, as believers our first conscious thought after physically dying will be carried by our guardian angels into the presence of the Lord in paradise. Hallelujah!

    Jesus then continues in John ch. 17 to further show these 11 apostles would not fall away at all, that they would be with Jesus in heaven & see His glory, JUST AS HE CONSISTENTLY taught in these 5 chapters. Jesus would CONTINUE to protect & preserve them until that day that they would join with Him in glory. And not only them but all who would BELIEVE in Christ through their testimony & gospel message! It went beyond just the eleven!

    John 17:20-26 I am not asking on behalf OF THEM ALONE, but ALSO ON BEHALF of those who will believe in Me through their message, so that ALL OF THEM MAY BE ONE, as You, Father, are in Me, and I am in You. May they ALSO BE IN US, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.

    22I have given them THE GLORY YOU GAVE ME, so that they may be one as We are one— I IN THEM & You in Me—SO THAT they may be perfectly united, so that the world may know that You sent Me & have loved them just as You have loved Me.

    24Father, I WILL that those You have given Me, be WITH ME WHERE I AM, SO THAT they may SEE THE GLORY You gave Me because You loved Me before the foundation of the world. Righteous Father, although the world has NOT known You, I know You & they know that You sent Me. And I have made Your name known TO THEM & WILL CONTINUE TO MAKE IT KNOWN, so that the love You have for Me may be IN THEM & I IN THEM.”

    Does Christ indeed CONTINUE TO PRAY & PROTECT & PRESERVE those who are the Father's, that the Father gives to the Son? Yes! There are an abundant of verses that show this plainly! I will list some of them for others to look at. Perhaps God may grant you mercy to look at them yourself. One cannot divorce the gospel of John from the other gospel accounts teaching on the same subject matter. Scripture interprets Scripture, Scripture harmonizes the whole teaching of God & brings fuller revelation IF it is not ignored or discarded as IRRELEVANT.

    Luke 22:20-23 {parallel John 13}, 28-34,39 "Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. But, behold, the hand of him that BETRAYS ME is with me on the table. 22And truly the Son of Man goes, as it was determined; but WOE to that man by whom he is betrayed!" 23And they began to INQUIRE AMONG THEMSELVES, which of them it was that should do this thing.

    (A parallel passage stating the same thing as in John 13: a tare is among those chosen & will be the only one to be lost.)

    vss 38-30 "You are they which have continued with Me in my temptations. AND I APPOINT TO YOU a kingdom, as my Father has appointed unto Me; SO THAT YOU MAY EAT & DRINK AT MY TABLE IN MY KINGDOM & SIT ON THRONES JUDGING THE 12 TRIBES OF ISRAEL!"

    Does this sound like the 11 apostles could fall away? Absolutely not. These are Jesus' own words & His appointment for the future for the Eleven! He chose them to do this & it will happen. Believe it or disbelieve, it is your CHOICE.

    Let us continue in the context of Luke 22, as to Jesus praying, protecting & preserving His 11 apostles. He shows this once again.

    vss 31,32,38 Simon, Simon, Satan has DEMANDED TO SIFT {EACH OF} YOU {plural} LIKE WHEAT. But I HAVE PRAYED for you {singular}, Simon, SO THAT your faith WILL NOT FAIL. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.” ...Jesus went out as usual to the Mount of Olives & the disciples followed Him.

    Jesus let Peter know that the accuser of the brethren demanded to have permission to sift all the apostles like separating the wheat from the chaff. Only one turned out to be chaff, the son of perdition. Jesus on the other hand, already knew ahead of time that Peter would deny knowing Him three times, so Jesus specifically prayed, so that Peter's faith would not fail. He did not pray for Judas Iscariot. And He predicted Peter would turn back & then he was to strengthen his brethren. Jesus knew all that.

    Repeating a person's name twice is significant & emphatic in Scripture. Jesus did the same with Martha. But those who BELIEVED NOT in Jesus also repeated the title, Lord, twice. We did this, we did that in Your name, Jesus. But Jesus said why do you call me Lord, Lord, yet NOT DO WHAT I TOLD YOU TO DO...I NEVER KNEW YOU.

    So again in the overall context of Jesus continuous teaching STARTING IN John 13 & CONTINUING all the way to John 17--this is born out. Again isolating verses or even chapters (John 15) & drawing conclusions outside of the overall context of continuous teaching for 5 chapters, is just that: eisogesis. One can draw wrong conclusions because one is ignoring the whole context. That is just a BASIC principle in hermeneutics.

    Was the 11 apostles/disciples the only ones there that listened to Jesus continuous teaching after they left the upper room where they shared the Passover meal together & walked to the Garden of Gethsemane? No.

    Who else was there with them that fled at the time the apostles fled--at Jesus being arrested & taken away? We know of at least one person: John Mark (as most scholars believe this young man was). The Passover meal was at his house! When they left there, he followed them.

    Mark 43-52 While Jesus was STILL SPEAKING, Judas, one of the Twelve, arrived, accompanied by a crowd armed with swords & clubs, sent from the chief priests, scribes & elders. Now the betrayer had arranged a signal with them: “The One I kiss is the man; arrest Him & lead Him away securely.” Going directly to Jesus, he said, “Rabbi!” & kissed Him. Then the men seized Jesus & arrested Him...Then everyone deserted Him & fled. One young man who HAD BEEN FOLLOWING jESUS was wearing a linen cloth around his body. They caught hold of him, but he pulled free of the linen cloth & ran away naked.

    Is Jesus being consistent in what He is teaching throughout this context & in harmonizing passages? Yes! (to be continued)
  14. Mathetes66

    Mathetes66 Well-Known Member Supporter

    United States
    Jesus talked about the 11 being completely clean but one of them was not clean (Judas Iscariot) in John 13:10,11. Jesus again repeats this in John 15:3 'You are ALREADY clean through the word which I have spoken to you.' All 11 again were declared clean ALREADY; only one was unclean. This ties ch. 15 BACK to ch. 13! In Eph 5, Jesus talks about this in light of the bride & body of Christ.

    Eph 5:25-27 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church & gave Himself up for her, so that He might SANCTIFY HER, HAVING CLEANSED HER BY THE WASHING OF WATER THROUGH THE WORD. He did this to present her to Himself as a glorious church without a SPOT or wrinkle or any other blemish. Instead, she will be holy & blameless. Ezek 26:25 "I will also sprinkle clean water on you & you will be clean."

    Titus 3:5 He saved us, NOT BY the righteous deeds we had done, but ACCORDING TO HIS MERCY, through the WASHING OF NEW BIRTH (regeneration) & renewal in the Holy Spirit.

    Heb 9:12-14 He did not enter by the blood of goats and calves, but He entered the Most Holy Place once for all by His own blood, thus THUS SECURING ETERNAL redemption. For if the blood of goats & bulls & the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are CEREMONIALLY UNCLEAN SANCTIFY THEM so that their bodies are clean, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself unblemished to God, purify our consciences from WORKS OF DEATH, so that we may serve the living God!

    Acts 22:16 Now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized & WASH YOUR SINS away, calling on His name.'

    Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in FULL ASSURANCE OF FAITH, with OUR HEARTS SPRINKLED CLEAN from an EVIL conscience & our bodies washed with pure water.

    So many more verses can be shared--but--wanting to continue again in the context of the 5 chapters in John, we see Jesus again addresses this issue of being clean, being sanctified through the word.

    John 17:2,10-12,14-17,19 For You granted Him authority over all humanity, so that He may give ETERNAL life to ALL THOSE YOU HAVE GIVEN HIM. I ask on their behalf. I do not ask on behalf of the world, but on behalf of those You have given Me; for they are Yours. All I have is Yours & all You have is Mine & in them I have been glorified.{another repetition in teaching}

    While I was with them, I protected & preserved them by Your name, the name You gave Me. NOT ONE OF THEM HAS BEEN LOST EXCEPT THE SON OF PERDITION, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled. I have given them Your word and the world has hated them; for they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.

    I am not asking that You take them out of the world, but that You KEEP THEM FROM THE EVIL ONE. They are NOT OF THE WORLD, JUST AS I am not of the world. SANCTIFY THEM BY THE TRUTH; YOUR WORD IS TRUTH... For them I sanctify Myself, so that THEY TOO, may be sanctified by the truth.

    Here is Jesus same consistent, repetitive teaching in this discourse that covered 5 chapters & verified by multitudes of corresponding & harmonious Scriptures.

    You said according to Jesus' teaching in John 15 only:

    The sad part & the biggest exposure of what you asserted above, is simply not true at all. Why do I say that? Had you included the CONTEXT of what Jesus' continuing teaching was for 5 chapters, you would have realized your error.

    The key irrefutable point is this: had you even continued on to read even the VERY FIRST VERSE OF CHAPTER 16, you would have seen that Jesus contradicted your conclusions, being contrary to what Jesus taught.

    John 16:1 "I HAVE TOLD YOU THESE THINGS--SO THAT YOU WILL NOT FALL AWAY." It is worth repeating: had you only read one more verse. "I HAVE TOLD YOU THESE THINGS--SO THAT YOU WILL NOT FALL AWAY."

    He didn't say maybe they might fall away. He didn't say there was even a possibility that they would fall away. His conclusion AFTER TELLING THEM THESE TEACHINGS: you WILL NOT FALL AWAY. It fits in line with all the teachings that Christ has been emphasizing from chapter 13 to chapter 17 & which I have repeatedly pointed out! It fits with all the corresponding or parallel passages in the other gospel accounts & in the rest of Scripture.

    I was not emphasizing John 15. You were. I was showing all the other corresponding & harmonizing passages. But your agenda was to only focus on ch. 15 & isolated from the surrounding context. So now I am looking at John 15 & it is not teaching what you have said, in light of the rest of the context..

    On the contrary, those passages in it describing the lifting up, cutting off & removing the fruitless branches were not 'you' passages but talking about people in general. When it did talk about you specifically, it was in reference to the apostles, who had ALREADY PRODUCED FRUIT IN THEIR MINISTRIES, who had ALREADY been cleaned & pruned as fruitful branches in order to produce MORE fruit & MUCH fruit. They were not unfruitful branches.

    And my main point reiterated is that this teaching is found in the other illustrations in Scripture, of those who believe & those who don't; those who produce fruit & those who don't; those who produce a crop & those who don't. Those who don't are the unbelieving, the children of the enemy, his bad seed growing up; the tares. The branches can be from an olive tree as in Romans 11 or a vine as in John 15 or a tree in general that is not producing fruit.

    If I need to do a exegetical study on Romans 11 I can show the same thing as here but I would then use the whole context of Romans ch. 9 through ch. 11, as that is the whole context of what the Apostle Paul is addressing in his argument.

    It can be those who are fruitful & produce a crop & those who are unfruitful & do not produce a crop. It can be wheat that is from the good seed the Son of Man sows & grows into a wheat crop. The others are bad seed from the devil that are tares. You don't lift up, remove & take away the wheat until both have grown up. Then the difference becomes evident. One is a weed, not a fruitful crop. They are not believers & are uprooted then.

    You said the passage I used in Matthew 15 (not Matt 11) was irrelevant also. However, it was definitely relevant as to the Father uprooting any plant that wasn't His. It parallels John 15:1-3, where again the Father is the one that lifts up, cuts off & removes the again unfruitful branches, just like the unfruitful plants sown by the devil, the tares. They are to be uprooted for unfruitfulness, just like the branches are cut off because of unfruitfulness.

    The Pharisees were producing evil fruit, as Jesus taught in various places. They were evil inside & unclean. They were at the point of not escaping from hell. They made proselytes twice a son of hell as themselves, their own evil fruit & being blind guides. And Jesus' parable on the good seed & the evil seed again fits in perfect harmony with this passage & John 15 & Rom 11.

    The tares once mature, are uprooted, then sifted from the wheat & then thrown into the fire & burned. These are the unbelievers, these are the children of the devil, these are the ones who fall away, these are the ones who produce no good fruit but evil fruit, who produce thorns & thistles.

    Matt 7:16-19 Beware of false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree CANNOT bear bad fruit & a bad tree CANNOT bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down & thrown into the fire. So then, by their fruit you will recognize them.

    Luke 13:7-9 So he said to the keeper of the vineyard, ‘Look, for the past three years I have come to search for fruit on this fig tree & haven’t found any. Therefore cut it down! Why should it use up the soil?’ ‘Sir,’ the man replied, ‘leave it alone again this year, until I dig around it & fertilize it. If it bears fruit next year, fine. But if not, you can cut it down.’”

    Here is yet several other illustrations Jesus uses about trees. Again the issue is bearing or not bearing fruit & fruit that is good & fruit that is bad or evil. If it doesn't produce fruit at all & those that do don't produce good fruit, they are cut down & thrown into the fire.

    All these illustrations combined, have a consistent message in them that harmonizes all the illustrations. John 15 isn't isolated from chapters 13-17 nor is it isolated from all these other illustrations.

    The Apostle James also teaches along this line in James 3:4-12.

    Consider ships as well. Although they are so large and are driven by strong winds, they are steered by a very small rudder wherever the pilot is inclined. In the same way, the tongue is a small part of the body, but it boasts of great things. Consider how small a spark sets a great forest ablaze. The tongue also is a fire, a world of wickedness among the parts of the body.

    It pollutes the whole person, sets the course of his life on fire & is itself set on fire by hell (Gehenna). All kinds of animals, birds, reptiles & creatures of the sea are being tamed & have been tamed by man, but no man can tame the tongue. It is a restless evil, full of deadly poison.

    9With the tongue we bless our Lord & Father & with it we curse men, who have been made in God’s likeness. Out of the same mouth come BLESSING & CURSING. My brothers, this should not be! Can both fresh water & bitter water flow from the SAME spring? My brothers, can a FIG TREE GROW OLIVES, or a grapevine bear figs? Neither can a SALT spring produce FRESH water.

    The last issue I haven't addressed is your issue with Protestants incorrectly translating the Greek word in John 15:2, 'αἴρει (airei) according to you & Logos Software. (to be continued)
  15. Mathetes66

    Mathetes66 Well-Known Member Supporter

    United States
    First of all, I haven't found ANY TRANSLATION that matches your posts of John 15:2 in this thread. Here is what you posted as John 15:2 'He (The Father) cuts off every branch in Me that does not bear fruit.' And in another post: Verse 2 'Jesus says He (The Father) cuts off every branch in Me that does not bear fruit.' These are incomplete verses & in a word order that I can't find in any translation.

    I had to go searching again in the thread & finally found a third posting of John 15:2, where you have it in the context of other verses in the chapter. You were quoting from the NASB & using this translation to seek to disagree with another member, telling them that they just refuse to accept what you believed, telling them the info they posted was garbage & rubbish, such as the 'cosmic' quote.

    This 3rd one read: 'Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away & every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.'

    I find that ironic in that you make a MAJOR point of saying to me, that the Protestant bible translators were incorrect in their translation of the above word I mentioned in John 15:2--YET--in the only time you quote this verse in whole, you use a translation that says 'takes away' NOT 'cuts off.' And you don't even seek to 'correct' this when YOU QUOTE IT as authoritative Scripture.

    First of all congratulations. It appears you are using Logos software! They are the ones who analyze words in the Bible & use the exact chart & terminology in the same order of what you posted, using such terms as 'lemma' & 'transliteration' & 'description' among others. They only give the part of speech, but do not show the actual Greek word used in the sentence nor do they parse the word or if a verb, conjugate it. Do you even know what a lemma is? Do you know what transliteration means? Do you know WHERE the Description list comes from? Do you know how to parse a word or conjugate a verb in Greek?

    If you are using this to demonstrate you are smarter than Protestant Bible translators, who are/were fluent in the Biblical languages & can read from the orginal Bible languages & then directly translate them into English or other languages--as most were fluent in many languages besides the biblical ones, upon examination of what you posted & no information on where you got it, then you are on two shakey legs to make such a judgment.

    THAT was the point I was making in comparing your boast that you were right & they were wrong! Yet you didn't claim to be a Bible scholar or fluent in the biblical languages. Are you or are you not? What is your training?

    Second, you wouldn't tell anyone where you got this information, just saying it was the correct translation. That is not being straightforward nor scholarly, since you are showing your judgmental attitude toward Protestant Bible scholars & Bible translators. And that is why I said you were breaking the Forum Rules as stated in CF. You said I was mistaken.

    So then I even quoted the Forum rules for you, showing you, that you were doing this & even against me as an individual, as well as doing it against a group of members (Protestants). Again you chose not to deal with this & ignored it.

    I am still not sure what upbringing or Christian persuasion you are coming from, as you only mention 'nondenominational' in your profile. If you are going contrary to Protestant translators here, does that mean you are not Protestant? Even nondenominational churches are still considered Protestant (various sects) though not Catholic (some sects) or Orthodox (some sects or branches). Please enlighten us. Thanks.

    So let us EXAMINE your claim to have the only correct translation of John 15:2 on that specific word, that SUPPOSEDLY DIFFERS from the Protestant translators.

    Although the E. Orthodox church doesn't promote one Bible version over another, the Orthodox Study Bible is an Eastern Orthodox approved Bible published by Thomas Nelson. It features an English translation of the St. Athanasius Academy Septuagint for the OT & utilizes the NKJV for the NT. Here is John 15:2 in it:
    'Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He [a]takes away & every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.' a. Or lifts up

    “Modern Literal Version” uses the Majority or Byzantine Text which the Orthodox church favors (‘The NT in the Original Greek Byzantine Textform 2018 Compiled & Arranged by Maurice A. Robinson & William Pierpont’). Here is John 15:2 in it:

    'Every branch which is not bringing forth fruit in me, he TAKES IT AWAY & every branch which is bringing forth fruit, he prunes it, in order that it may bring forth more fruit.'

    It appears you may have to put the Orthodox church in the category of the Protestants now, as two versions they approve of have 'takes away' rather than 'cuts off.'

    If we look at the Catholic church & their main Bible translations that they use, we see the following:

    New Revised Standard Version, Catholic Edition also called 'The Ignatius Bible': "He REMOVES every branch in me that bears no fruit. Every branch that bears fruit he prunes[a] to make it bear more fruit. Here 'removes' is used rather than 'cuts off.'

    Douay Rheims Bible: Every branch in me that beareth not fruit, he WILL TAKE AWAY & every one that beareth fruit, he will purge it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Here 'will take away' is used rather than 'cuts off.'

    Latin Vulgate: omnem palmitem in me non ferentem fructum tollet eum et omnem qui fert fructum purgabit eum ut fructum plus adferat. 'Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he will TAKE HIM & every one that bears fruit he will purge him to bring forth more fruit.' 'Take him' is used rather than 'cuts off.'

    Perhaps you should put the Catholics, along with the Orthodox & along with the Protestants as incorrect in their translations as well. This is the danger of what you are doing when promoting a 'self-interpretation' taken from a bible software program & then make the assertions & judgments you make.

    Here is a multitudinal list of bible translations & their renderings of John 15:2:

    *Apostolic Bible Polyglot (2005): EveryG3956 vine branchG2814 inG1722 meG1473 notG3361 bearingG5342 fruit,G2590 HE TAKESG142 IT...

    *ASV-2015 'Every branch in me that beareth not fruit, he taketh it away...'
    *TOL Messianic Version 'Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away...'
    *Analytical Literal 'Every branch in Me not bearing fruit, He takes it away [or, lifts it up]
    *Bible in Basic English 'He takes away every branch in me which has no fruit...'
    *Hebraic Roots Bible 'Every branch in Me not bearing fruit, He takes it away...'
    *Bishops Bible 'Euery braunche that beareth not fruite in me, he will take away...'
    *Berean Literal Bible 'Every branch not bearing fruit in Me, He takes it away...'
    *Berean Study Bible 'He cuts off every branch in Me that bears no fruit...'
    *KJV 'Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away...'
    *Christian Standard Bible 'Every branch in me that does not produce fruit he removes...'
    *Peshitta Aramaic English Interlinear 'And that it He takes [away] does give not [that] fruit...'

    This translation is used by Arabic/Aramaic speaking Christians like the Melkite Catholic & the Melkite Orthodox Churches may use--again notice: He takes it [away'] is used rather than 'he cuts off.']

    *Contemporary English Version 'He cuts away every branch of mine that doesn't produce fruit.'

    *HCSB 'very branch in Me that does not produce fruit He removes...'
    *Int'l Standard Version 'He cuts off every branch that does not produce fruit in me...'
    *NET Bible 'He takes away every branch that does not bear fruit in me.'
    *Aramaic Bible in Plain English 'Every branch on me not yielding fruit he takes away...'
    *God's Word Translation 'Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away...'
    *Jubilee Bible 2000 'Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he shall take away...'
    *Darby Bible '[As to] every branch in me not bearing fruit, he takes it away...'
    *ERV 'Every branch in me that beareth not fruit, he taketh it away...'
    *Webster's Bible 'Every branch in me that beareth not fruit, he taketh away...'
    *Weymouth NT 'Every branch in me--if it bears no fruit, He takes away...'
    *World English Bible 'Every branch in me that doesn't bear fruit, he takes away...'
    *Young's Literal Trans. 'Every branch in me not bearing fruit, He doth take it away...'
    *Concordant Literal 'Every branch in Me bringing forth no fruit, He is taking it away...'
    *English Majority Text 'Every branch in Me which does not bear fruit He takes away...'
    *Easy To Read Version 'Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away...'
    *exeGesis Ready Research Bible 'Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away...'
    *Good News Bible 'He breaks off every branch in me that does not bear fruit...'
    *Lamsa NT 'Every branch in me that does not bear fruit, he cuts out...'
    *Lexham English Bible 'Every branch that does not bear fruit in me, he removes it...'
    *Literal Translation of Holy Bible 'Every branch in Me not bearing fruit, He takes it away'
    *Modern KJV 'Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away...'
    *Murdock 'Every branch in me, which yieldeth not fruits, he taketh it away...'
    *NT With Variant Readings 'Every branch in me that beareth not fruit, he taketh it away...'
    *Nueva Biblia Latinoamericana De Hoy ' Todo sarmiento que en Mí no da fruto, 'lo quita' ('removes it')
    *Unlocked Dynamic Bible 'Every branch in me that does not grow fruit, my Father cuts it off & takes it away.
    *New Heart English Bible 'Every branch in me that does not bear fruit, he takes away...'
    *Niobi Personal Study Bible 'Every branch in Me that bears not fruit He takes away...'
    *Numeric NT 'Every branch in me that beareth not fruit, he taketh it away...'
    *Portuguese (PJFA) 'Toda vara em mim que não dá fruto, 'ele a corta' ('he cuts it).
    *Sinaitic NT 1918 'Every branch in me that bears not fruit he takes away...'
    *German Schlacter Bible 'Jegliches Schoß an mir, das keine Frucht bringt, 'nimmt er weg' ('he takes away')
    *Son Of Man Bible 'He takes away every branch in me that does not bear fruit.
    *The Disciple's Bible 'Every branch in me that beareth not fruit, he taketh it away...'
    *Modern Spelling Tyndale/Coverdale Bible 'Every branch that beareth not fruit in me, he will take away.
    *Alexandria Bible 'Every branch in me that bears not fruit he takes away...'
    *Complete Jewish Bible 'Every branch which is part of me but fails to bear fruit, he cuts off...'
    *Hebrew Names Version 'Every branch in me that doesn't bear fruit, he takes away...'
    *The Message (Paraphrase) Bible 'He cuts off every branch of me that doesn't bear grapes.'
    *3rd Millenium Bible 'Every branch in Me that beareth not fruit He taketh away...'
    *Wycliffe Bible 'Each branch in me that beareth not fruit, he shall take away it [he shall do it away].

    Out of 54 Bible translations, just 4 have 'cuts off' (6 if one includes one 'cut away' & one 'cut it'). These translations include more than ones done by Protestants--some foreign languages & some go back even to the 2nd/3rd centuries. By the way, even though it is infrequently translated as such, I am not opposed to it being translated, 'cuts off' nor 'removed' nor 'takes away.'

    They all convey the same idea of the Greek word. However, the immediate context & modifying words determine which is the more appropriate English translation, due to the semantic range of this Greek word & its wide usage in the NT in various applications.

    And by the way, remember the poster who wrote this: 'Two kinds of connexion with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual & the vital which bears fruit' is quoting one of the best Greek scholars in the last hundred years?

    His reference to the word, 'cosmic' is not arbitrary but is referring to the Greek word, 'kosmos' from which we get our English word cosmic. It simply means the world & its system around us. He is referring to a person of this world & they don't produce fruit; it is contrasted with a believer that is no longer a part of the 'kosmos' or cosmic world system & does produce fruit.

    When one looks at that one word in John 15:2, 'αἴρει' it is used 101X in the NT & has a semantic range of meaning, depending on the context this word is found in.

    Matt 4:6 'On their hands they will 'bear you up', lest you strike your foot against a stone. To translate this word as 'cuts off' here makes it meaningless: Matt 4:6 'On their hands they will 'cut you off'', lest you strike your foot against a stone.

    Here is another occurrence: Matt 9:6 '...Then he says to the paralytic, 'Rise up', take up thy bed & go to thy house. Substitute 'cuts off' --He says to the parlytic, Be cut off, take up they bed... Again it doesn't make sense so the context is key to using the right semantic range meaning of this word.

    That was just 2 occurrences, leaving 98 more. I will stop here on that. And there was a reason for me pointing out why John 15:1-3 were important to look at together.(to be continued)
  16. Mathetes66

    Mathetes66 Well-Known Member Supporter

    United States
    John 15:1, which you said was irrelevant to what you were asserting, is extremely important in the Apostle John's mind, in writing this gospel. This is now the SEVENTH TIME JESUS DISPLAYS HIS DEITY in using the I AM statement, as another metaphor, to convey a fulfillment of a type & to be the source of fruitbearing & preservation WITH the Father. This is the first I AM statement of Deity to mention the unity of the Father & Son in bringing forth fruit TOGETHER in the lives of Christians.

    In the first part of the gospel, Jesus performed 7 miracles. And these 7 miracles are tied to the seven I AM statements of Deity, all arranged to fulfill the purpose of why this gospel was written, under the leading & guiding of the Holy Spirit:

    John 20:27-31 Then Jesus said to Thomas, “Put your finger here & see My hands. Reach out your hand & put it into My side. Stop unbelieving & believe.” Thomas replied, “My Lord & my God!” Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen & yet have believed.”

    30Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book. BUT THESE ARE WRITTEN so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God & that by believing you may have LIFE in His name.

    John 8:57,58 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old & You have seen Abraham?” Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham was born (came into existence), I AM."

    John 8:23-25 Then He told them, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. That is why I told you that you will die in your sins. For unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins. "Who are You?" they asked. Jesus answered, "Exactly (precisely) the same thing I've been telling you since the very beginning."

    Miracle 1: Turning the Ceremonial Cleansing Water Into The Best Wine At Cana (John 2:1-11)
    John 15:1,5 I AM the true vine & my Father is the Vinedresser. I AM the vine & you are the branches. If a man abides in Me & I in him, the same bears much fruit, for apart (separate) from Me you can do nothing.

    Miracle 2: Healing The Royal Official's Son from Cana Again Who Was In Capernaum (John 4:43-54)
    John 10:11 I AM the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

    Miracle 3: The Healing of the Crippled Man of 38 Years at the Pool of Bethesda (John 5:1-9)
    John 10:9 I AM the gate; whoever enters through Me will be saved. he will come in & go out & find pasture.

    Miracle 4: The Feeding of the 5000 (John 6:1-5; in all 4 gospels; 5 barley loaves, 2 small fish; 12 baskets )
    John 6:35 I AM the bread of life. He who comes to Me will never be hungry & he who believes in Me will never be thirsty.

    Miracle 5: Walking on the Water (John 6:16-25)
    John 14:6 I AM the Way & the Truth & the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

    Miracle 6: Healing The Man Born Blind (John 9:1-41)
    John 8:12 When Jesus spoke again to the people, He said, “I AM the light of the world. Whoever follows Me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.” (John 9:39)

    Miracle 7: Raising Lazarus From The Dead (John 11:1-44)
    John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I AM the resurrection & the life. He who believes in Me will live, even though he dies & whoever lives & believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”

    It is not by chance or accident but by purpose that John 15 is BETWEEN ch. 14 and 16! Jesus continues to tie each chapter together in this five chapter discourse, showing that one cannot isolate any one chapter from the whole context or misinterpretations will occur & false conclusions will be made.

    "The first section (vv. 1-4) builds on a knowledge of basic methods of grape culture. Branches that do not produce fruit are useless & removed by the farmer from the vine. Branches that do bear grapes are pruned through cleansing so that they might be even more fruitful...He implied that the disciples were among the fruitful, for he pronounced them already clean (or pruned; the Greek word is a cognate of the same) through His ministry." (cf. 13:10)

    Jesus emphasized this in the discourses' 2nd part (vv. 5-8). He restated the 1st element 15:1, but in the 2nd He spoke of the disciples rather than His Father. No branch, he said, can be fruitful that is severed from its vine. It is the same in the spiritual realm: the fruitfulness secret is living in connection with Jesus, who is the source of fruitfulness. Remaining in Jesus & being fruitful is the essence of discipleship, brings glory to the Father & guarantees answered prayer (cf. 14:13).

    In the 3rd section (vv. 9-17), Jesus reaffirmed the importance & nature of love (14:15-24) & fruitbearing. The Father's love for Jesus was the model for Jesus' love of the disciples; His obedient love for the Father was the model for their love for Him. His self-sacrificing love for them was the model of their love for each other. The initiative in all this was His. He chose them & not they Him. His design was that they should bear fruit & His command was that they should love each other (cf. 13:34-35). [These would be evidences to the world.] Asbury Commentary

    Matt 3:10 The ax lies ready at the root of the trees & every tree that does not produce GOOD FRUIT will be cut down & thrown into the fire.

    Matt 7:19 Every tree that does not bear GOOD FRUIT is cut down & thrown into the fire.

    Then in John 15:3, I mentioned this was significant because it pointed directly back to the context of all this teaching, where it started, in chapter 13, tying together Jesus teaching. The same word for clean here is the same word for clean in ch. 13. Prune in John 15:2 is a cognate of this same word & comes from it (used only once in NT).

    Cognate: having the same linguistic derivation as another; from the same original word or root (e.g., English is, German ist, Latin est, etc).

    Cognate: 2508 kathaírō – make clean by purging (removing undesirable elements); hence, "pruned (purged)"; eliminating what is fruitless by purifying (making unmixed). See 2513 (katharos). Thayer's Greek Lexicon: καθαίρω; perfect passive participle κεκαθαρμενος; (καθαρός); to cleanse, properly, from filth, impurity, etc.; trees & vines (from useless shoots), to prune, John 15:2.

    2513 katharós (a primitive word) – properly, "without admixture" (BAGD); what is separated (purged), hence "clean" (pure) because unmixed (without undesirable elements); (figuratively) spiritually clean because purged (purified by God), i.e. free from the contaminating (soiling) influences of sin.

    John 13:10,11 Jesus replied, "The one who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely CLEAN. And you disciples are CLEAN, but NOT EVERY ONE OF YOU." For He knew who would betray Him. That is why He said, “Not all of you are CLEAN.”

    Matt 5:8 'Blessed are the PURE in heart...
    Titus 1:15 To the PURE, all things are PURE; but to those who are DEFILED & UNBELIEVING, NOTHING IS PURE;

    Matt 23:25-28 “Woe to you, scribes & Pharisees, hypocrites! For you CLEAN the OUTSIDE of the cup & the plate, but INSIDE they are full of greed & self-indulgence. You blind Pharisee! First CLEAN THE INSIDE of the cup & the plate, so that the outside also may be CLEAN...For you are like whitewashed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but within are full of dead people’s bones & ALL UNCLEANNESS. So you also outwardly appear righteous to others, but within you are full of hypocrisy & lawlessness.

    Luke 11:40,41 You fools! Did not the One who made the outside make the inside as well? But give as alms the things being within & behold, ALL THINGS ARE CLEAN TO YOU.

    Thayer's Greek Lexicon STRONGS NT 2513: καθαρός (katharos) the Septuagint. mostly for טָהור; clean, pure (free from the admixture or adhesion of anything that soils, adulterates, corrupts).

    a. physically: Matt 23:26; 27:59; Heb 10:22 (23); Rev 15:6; 19:8, 14 & Rec. in Rev 22:1; χρυσίον, purified by fire, Rev 21:18, 21; IN A SIMILE, LIKE A VINE CLEANSED BY PRUNING & SO (THUS) FITTED TO BEAR FRUIT, JOHN 15:3.

    ὁ λελουμένος ... καθαρός ὅλος (where the idea which Christ expresses figuratively is as follows: 'he whose inmost nature has been renovated does not need radical renewal, but only to be cleansed from every several fault into which he may fall through contact with the unrenewed world'), John 13:10.

    There are numerous OT passages which refer to Israel as a vine: Ps 80:8-16, Isa 5:1-7, Jer 2:21, Ezek 15:1-8, 17:5-10, 19:10-14 & Hos 10:1. The vine became symbolic of Israel & even appeared on some coins issued by the Maccabees. Here Jesus says that He is the true vine that Israel represents & didn't fulfill. He is the fulfillment. Through Him people produce fruit, more fruit & much fruit & experience eternal life.

    As elsewhere in this Gospel, “true” means “genuine.” Jesus is the final, real “vine,” as compared to Israel, which was a type foreshadowing the reality. Israel is called God’s “vine” or “vineyard” in the OT (Ps. 80:8–16; Jer. 2:21). Israel is judged for not bearing fruit, while Jesus is & does what the type signified. This is the last of the “I AM” sayings in the Gospel.

    One must stop & think: how does one produce the fruit that God desires? Does a branch WORK at producing fruit? No. How then does it produce fruit? The branch simply acts as a branch, a channel for the sap that in turn gives the food for the branch budding out & blossoming & producing fruit.

    Spiritually, how do we produce fruit? Do we work to produce fruit? No. We preach the gospel & labor, but even that energy & the grace that enables us to do so, is from the Lord, as Paul writes in 2 Cor 12. Do we give the increase or the fruit? No. God does all that. Jesus' illustration is amazing! Praise the Lord.

    Whether we plant seed physically, we simply WAIT, abiding in patience. When we sow the good seed of the gospel, we must still wait until God gives the increase. In order to produce fruit on a vine, we don't produce the fruit, it is produced in us as we abide, waiting on Christ & the work of the Holy Spirit.

    Fruit is also produced by the Father's pruning--cleaning off branches that are able to produce fruit. The rest that are fruitless are lifted up, cut off, removed & taken away. They are the unfruitful ones, the unbelieving, the tares that appear to look like wheat at first & these are the ones who say, 'Lord, Lord, did we not do mighty works in your name, etc., to which Jesus said that He NEVER knew them at any time & their works were evil not good.

    I John 2:18,19 Children, it is the last hour & just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know it is the last hour. They went OUT FROM US, BUT THEY DID NOT BELONG TO US. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. But their DEPARTURE MADE IT CLEAR THAT NONE OF THEM BELONGED TO US.

    The harmony of Scripture is again amazingly consistent in saying the same things, simply with different illustrations. That is why I use so many examples, all pointing to the same spiritual truths. Want yet another one? Here is another illustration that Jesus used that I haven't mentioned yet & it refers directly to bearing much fruit, like the context here. Only it brings a spiritual paradox. To produce fruit, one must die. Prior context is, to produce fruit, one must live & abide in the One who gives eternal life.

    John 12:23-26 But Jesus replied, “The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. 24Truly, truly, I tell you, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground AND dies, it remains ONLY a seed; but IF IT DIES, IT BEARS MUCH FRUIT. Whoever loves his life will lose it, but whoever hates his life in this world WILL KEEP IT FOR ETERNAL life. If anyone serves Me, he must follow Me & WHERE I AM, MY SERVANT WILL BE AS WELL. If anyone serves Me, the Father will honor him.

    So harmonizing this with the parables of the soil in the gospels, we see that if seed is left alone, it doesn't produce anything. It is dead seed. But if that seed is put into the ground, it has the potential to produce a crop IF THE SOIL IS PREPARED PROPERLY & IT IS PLANTED IN THE PROPER GROUND. How does it suddenly become alive & grow & sprout & blossom & fertilize & produce much fruit? No one fully knows but God does. What is dead is born again into life. Do you want another harmonizing example?

    Matt 13:36-43, 47-52 “Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field.” And He said, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man & the field is the world. And as for the GOOD SEED, these ARE the sons of the kingdom & the tares ARE THE SONS OF THE EVIL ONE & the enemy who sowed them is the devil & the harvest is the end of the age & the reapers are angels. So just as the tares are gathered up & burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send forth His angels & they will gather OUT OF His kingdom all stumbling blocks & those who commit lawlessness & will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping & gnashing of teeth. Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father.

    He who has ears, LET HIM HEAR.

    Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet cast into the sea & gathering fish OF EVERY KIND. And when it was filled, they drew it up on the beach & they sat down & gathered the GOOD FISH into containers, but THE BAD they THREW AWAY. So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth & TAKE OUT THE WICKED FROM AMONG THE RIGHTEOUS & will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping & gnashing of teeth.

    “Have you UNDERSTOOD all these things?” They said to Him, “Yes.” And Jesus said to them, “Therefore every scribe who has become a disciple of the kingdom of heaven is like a head of a household, who brings out of his treasure things new & old.”

    Again this harmonizes with 2 other parables & the other teachings of Christ & the apostles. Good seed planted in good soil produces good fruit. Bad seed of weeds planted in good soil along with good seed produces tares or weeds not good fruit but bad. A good seed cannot magically turn into a bad seed. A bad seed cannot turn into a good seed.

    A good tree CANNOT produce bad fruit & a bad tree cannot produce good fruit. No matter how hard you try or pray or work or prepare the soil, you cannot get grapes from a briar bush or a thorn tree. Thorn trees produce thorn trees, full of thorns. Grapes vines produce grapes IF they are pruned & the branches trained properly.

    What is thrown into the fire & burned are the tares, are the branches, are the trees, are the plants--that don't produce fruit, are the dead branches that need to be cut off & removed so light can reach the fruitable branches. You can't make a good seed of those who believe in Christ into a bad seed of Satan. They have already been transferred out of the kingdom of darkness & placed into the kingdom of light, baptized into the body of Christ by the Holy Spirit. They are the wheat; not a tare. A tare is still a tare, whether starting from a seed or grown up & identified as a tare. A weed seed produces a weed. A wheat seed produces wheat.

    That is the consistent message of Christ in the parables, in His metaphors & teachings. He is CONSISTENT in His teaching. Here in John 15, the 11 apostles are the good seed. They already have produced fruit! This is the seed the Lord has planted! They have ALREADY been cleansed, purged, pruned. He knows what these seed will produce, a good crop, a fruitful harvest.

    The purpose of pruning is to clean the branch of all debris, dirt, rank growth & sucker shoots & lift it up & train it with other branches so that they receive the proper sunlight & room to grow much fruit. Here in John 15:3, Jesus says, the apostles have ALREADY been cleansed, ALREADY been purged, already been pruned & made ready to produce MORE fruit, since they have already been fruitful.

    How do I know that? Because in the context of chapters 13 through 17, Jesus had mentioned they had been made clean by the word which He had spoken to them, all except one, the son of perdition. He again mentions the same thing in chapter 17! Consistent teaching, consistent message throughout the context.

    Even when they had left the upper room, they were still probably talking about which one was to betray them, as it was being discussed among them & how they were boasting they would not do such a thing. Now here in John 15:3, Jesus uses the Greek (G2235) word 'ἤδη (ēdē)' which is usually translated, 'already, now at length or now after all this time.'

    In John 13 He said they were made clean. Here after walking some toward the garden, Jesus says, you are ALREADY made clean, as He taught the verses in John 15. It shows Jesus was referring directly back to John 13, this being the second time He has mentioned their being cleaned. Then and now, meaning the cleaning was already accomplished, tying both together from the context! (to be continued)
  17. Mathetes66

    Mathetes66 Well-Known Member Supporter

    United States
    And that this 'already being clean' is used to show they had already been cleaned BY PRUNING (vs 2) & were ready to produce more fruit! This is evident in various translations of the Bible that bring this out. Jesus is using this teaching of being cleaned now in light of being already purged & pruned & cleaned of all things that keep them from producing more fruit.

    John 15:3 World English Bible 'You are already pruned clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
    Aramaic Bible in Plain English “From now on U are PURGED because of the word which I have spoken with U.”
    New Living Translation: 'You have already been pruned & purified by the message I have given you.

    Heb 13:14-15 For here we do not have a permanent city, but we are looking for the city that is to come. Through Jesus, therefore, let us continually offer to God a sacrifice of praise--the FRUIT of lips that openly confess His name. And do not neglect to do good & share with others, for with such sacrifices God is pleased.

    'And the greatest of these is LOVE. Love never fails.' 'Jesus loved them to the end.'

    God's purposes for His people haven't changed: 'Be fruitful & multiply & fill the earth & subdue it'--physically. (Gen 1:28) Jesus adds a spiritual dimension: be fruitful spiritually, in your own life & in the multiplication of spiritual lives saved, established & equipped, to make more disciples. (2 Tim 2:1,2; Matt 28:18-20; Matt 4:18-20; Luke 5:3-11).

    Only the fruitful ones are given to the Son from the Father & this includes the 11 apostles. The rest are not given to the Son. Only the believers who produce fruit are given to the Son, as I've shown repeatedly also. So the passage is very relevant. And it fits the continuing teaching & context of Jesus,. especially ch. 13, ch. 14, ch15, ch. 16 & ch. 17--as I've demonstrated.