FAITH...SOLELY?

redleghunter

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Hmm, a bit redundant there I'd think.
You and I have yet to attain the Resurrection as we are still living. The communion of saints have yet to attain the Resurrection as well because they too await the Second Coming of Christ.

I don’t think the context suggests Paul was speaking of falling short of God’s redemptive Grace.

We can look at the text.

Philippians 3: NASB

7But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ. 8More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, 9and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from theLaw, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comesfrom God on the basis of faith, 10that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death;11in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

12Not that I have already obtained itor have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. 13Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, 14I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.15Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, have this attitude; and if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that also to you;16however, let us keep living by that same standard to which we have attained.
 
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Mathetes66

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"The YET or BUT are operative because we don't presume to know with 100% certainty what God, alone, knows with that kind of perfection: whose names are written in the Book of Life and whose are not, who are numbered among the elect and who are the reprobate. He's trustworthy and true; we're the wildcard."

Thanks for the clarification. I assumed that is what you meant. I believe God has given 100% ASSURANCE in many promises in the Scriptures & does make many distinctions between the believers & the reprobate. Those who are reprobate are those JESUS NEVER KNEW. There was no relationship.

Some will mention, for example, a passage in Hebrews.

Heb 6:1-9 Therefore let us leave the ELEMENTARY doctrine of Christ & GO ON TO MATURITY, not laying again a foundation of REPENTANCE FROM DEAD WORKS & faith toward God & of instruction about washings, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead & ETERNAL JUDGMENT.

3And this we will do IF God permits.

4For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift & have shared in the Holy Spirit & have tasted the goodness of the word of God & the powers of the age to come & then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm & holding him up to contempt.

7BECAUSE...

land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it & PRODUCES A CROP useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, RECEIVES A BLESSING FROM GOD.

8But IF it bears THORNS & THISTLES, it is worthless & near to being cursed & its end is to be burned.

9Though we speak IN THIS WAY,

YET... {this is the yet of Scripture}

IN YOUR CASE--BELOVED--we feel SURE OF BETTER THINGS, things that BELONG TO SALVATION.

Here again is the repetitious pattern of Biblical teaching on those who produce fruit, a crop to maturity & those who don't produce fruit or a crop, but rather end up producing thorns & thistles. The tares, the thorns & thistles and fruitless branches are thrown into the fire & burned.

These are the reprobate, who do not produce any fruit or crop of any kind. The parable of the seed & the soils is a classic example. Doing a harmony of them in the gospels shows plainly the first three are not saved, only the last soil that produced a crop are the saved.

One can boast all they want on supposed good works, etc. but that doesn't bring salvation & knowing Christ experientially.

Matt 7:15-20 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16You will recognize them BY THEIR FRUITS. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?

17So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18A healthy tree CANNOT bear bad fruit, nor can a CORRUPT tree bear good fruit. 19Every tree that DOES NOT BEAR GOOD FRUIT is cut down & thrown into the fire. 20Thus you will RECOGNIZE THEM by their fruits.

21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

22On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy IN YOUR NAME & cast out demons in your name & do many mighty works in your name?’ 23And then will I declare to them, ‘I NEVER KNEW YOU; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

And as to the book of life, the LAMB'S book of life:

Luke 10:17-22 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. 18And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

19Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents & scorpions, & over all the power of the enemy & nothing shall by any means hurt you. 20Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you;

BUT...{there is that Scriptural one surprising us with the truth}

RATHER REJOICE BECAUSE YOUR NAMES ARE WRITTEN IN HEAVEN! {And they hadn't even died yet & not for many years}

21In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit & said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven & earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise & prudent & has revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed GOOD IN YOUR SIGHT. 22All things are delivered to me of my Father & no man knows who the Son is, but the Father; & who the Father is, but the Son & HE TO WHOM THE SON WILL REVEAL HIM.

Phil 4:3 Yes, and I ask you, my true yokefellow, to help these women who have labored with me for the gospel, along with Clement & THE REST OF MY FELLOW WORKERS--WHOSE NAMES ARE IN THE BOOK OF LIFE.

Paul said this with absolute CONFIDENCE & ASSURANCE & yet all of them were still alive & hadn't died yet. That is the 100% assurance we can have in what Christ has done to save us. Again salvation is not based on anything of ourselves, not of us. It is a gift but moreso--we become a new creation, no longer to go back to what we were before. We don't consider Christ the same anymore, as Paul taught.

Daniel 12:1 But at that time your people--everyone whose name is found written in the book--WILL BE DELIVERED.

Heb 12:23 ...In joyful assembly, to the congregation of the firstborn, ENROLLED IN HEAVEN. You have come to God the judge of all men, to the spirits of the righteous made PERFECT...

Heb 12:2 '...the author and PERFECTER of our faith...'

I Pet 5:10 After you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ, will HIMSELF PERFECT, confirm, strengthen and establish you.

I John 5:10-13 He that believes on the Son of God has the witness IN HIMSELF. He that believes NOT God has MADE HIM A LIAR--

BECAUSE... (plain reason given) he believes not THE RECORD THAT GOD GAVE CONCERNING HIS SON.

11And this IS THE RECORD, that God has given to us ETERNAL LIFE & this life is in his Son. 12He that has the Son has life & he that has not the Son of God HAS NOT LIFE.

13These things have I WRITTEN TO YOU WHO BELIEVE ON THE NAME OF THE SON OF GOD, SO THAT YOU MAY KNOW THAT YOU HAVE ETERNAL LIFE--& that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Amazing how Scripture defines precisely what is the written record of God & His personal witness concerning those who believe on the name of the Son of God & who have the very Witness IN THEMSELVES, JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF.

This assurance & record WRITTEN DOWN was to make sure we KNOW THAT WE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE! 100% record of truth.

Now, just as true believers are indwelt by the Holy Spirit & sealed with Him UNTIL THE DAY OF REDEMPTION (not condemnation), as the GUARANTEE of the salvation God has freely given us as a gift, not something we can earn--

so Jesus indwells us along with the Holy Spirit & along with the Father--in fact, Jesus promises to be with us ALWAYS--those disciples of His--even to the very close of this present age!

He doesn't depart from us, though He may discipline us as His children. And some who are His do produce fruit--it is recognizable--as well as those who don't--some may only produce 30 fold. Others may produce 60 fold & some even 100 fold.

Though the thief on the cross with Christ that eventually repented of his former words & believed in Christ, didn't produce much fruit due to time constraint (he did bear his testimony to all who were observing the crucifixions & bearing testimony that Jesus was guiltless & not deserving of this death).

Most all of his life were evil deeds. But (there it is again) he was promised to be with Christ in paradise that very day after their physical deaths! Hallelujah for the assurance of God, bearing record in the Scriptures, of those who believe in Christ, that they indeed have ETERNAL LIFE.
 
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BNR32FAN

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You are creating a faith OR works dichotomy and claiming works alone do not justify us. While you are right that works do not justify us, your premise is faulty. It is not faith OR works, it is faith AND works.

No one is pitting one against the other. They all agree.

I would say it is the type of faith that produces works that saves us. I think saying it this way is less confusing and doesn’t in any way imply that works play a role in our salvation.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Thanks for responding to my post!

First of all God has ALREADY decided how one is saved, both past, present & future. The gospel message is the same, preached the same by every apostle & remains the same message spoke by our Lord & passed down to us to this very day. There is only one gospel & any other gospel preached is anathema!

Second, it isn't a matter of IF--He wants us to be involved--He has already revealed how that is to be accomplished in the regenerative & sanctifying work of the the indwelling Holy Spirit. We are indwelt now by His Spirit; He doesn't leave like He did in the OT. We are SEALED now with the Holy Spirit, as a downpayment until the day of redemption!

So being saved from the penalty of sin is accomplished at the point of being saved initially by grace through faith. That doesn't change.

However, as you stated Catholic theology has a YET or a BUT in the salvation process. It truly doesn't depend solely upon the sacrifice on the cross & the resurrection of Christ. The new creation can't somehow be UNDONE.

The first part is POSITIONAL--righteousness credited to our ACCOUNT.

However, because we are human, we still sin at times and we can grieve & even quench the Holy Spirit, walking again in our flesh. Such were those saints (simply means 'separated or called out ones') who were called out of the world & transferred from the kingdom of darkness of the devil & transferred into God's marvelous kingdom of light. That doesn't change.

But our PROGRESSION in the practical walk of holiness BY THE SPIRIT into the image of Christ can be hindered by our walking in the flesh. Those in the church at Corinth for example are a good example.

They continued to be babes in Christ, rather than growing up. So they were divisive, following men rather than Christ, etc. Did they stop being babes in Christ because of their sinning? No. But they stop their GROWTH up into their salvation toward maturity.

So what did Paul determine? Were they lost now? No. But he determined to know nothing among them except Jesus Christ & Him crucified. The crucified life needed to be emphasized in every aspect of their lives.

And they responded to it, showing changes & some growth again in the Spirit, although there were still some that needed DISCIPLINE.

The man in I Cor 5 did what not even unbelieving Gentiles did, he had his father's wife & wasn't at first repentant. So Paul told the body of Christ there to excommunicate him & that by Paul's authority as an apostle, he turned this man over to the power of the devil, for the destruction of his physical body, so that his spirit would BE SAVED IN THE DAY OF CHRIST.

He was saved positionally but was not being saved progressively in his growth due to sin. So if a true believer choses a sinful path, then church discipline may need to be applied if the first steps in Matthew 18 are ignored.

God will allow a person to be taken off this earth in physical death prematurely (whether in this case by Divine discipline or if someone kills themselves through drugs, suicide, etc.) if they continue in their sin.

However, this person did repent & thus didn't go all the way to his physical body being destroyed. God WILL discipline us if we are his children, chastising us, even severely, like He did repeatedly with Israel. (Heb 12)

So, I agree with you that some severe things can occur & God has already outlined for the body of Christ the steps that can be taken to deal with this.

Even in the OT, though king Saul disobeyed the LORD & even sought to contact a dead person (the prophet Samuel), which God made an EXCEPTION to His commandment not to do that, Samuel speaking as a departed soul, received revelation from God to predict Saul & his son's deaths the following day.

However, Samuel stated that Saul & his sons WOULD BE WITH HIM IN SHEOL, in the compartment where the believing saints went--Abraham's bosom or Gan Eden or Paradise, such as Jesus taught in Luke 16. Saul was saved but his life was cut short due to his disobedience. God hasn't changed. He will discipline those who are His, sometimes severely as in this case.

Jesus shows that the good seed He sows are the believers & followers in Him. He never teaches that this good seed somehow becomes the bad seed that the devil sows.

'Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted.'

John 15:2 He (The Father) cuts off every branch in Me that does not bear fruit.
 
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Danthemailman

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Are we saved by the simple act of faith, by the sheer brute fact of faith IOW, as if believing that Jesus is God and died for our sins is, by itself, enough to save us? Or do even demons believe that? I’d submit that we’re saved by faith-meaning via faith-that’s meant to actually produce authentic righteousness within us-necessarily-in order to be made truly righteous-or justified-in God’s eyes by first of all establishing communion with Him.

“But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who will render to each person according to his deeds: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.” Rom 2:5-8

Or…is righteousness/works just an inevitable and intrinsic by-product of faith? Either way, are we still obligated under the New Covenant to be actually righteous and certainly oriented in that direction, or would that be a case of still being “under the law, instead of “under grace”? Is strictly believing enough? There seems to be some confusion or conflict on this between people who claim to adhere to Sola Fide, with some at the extreme expressing what amounts to an antinomian stance for all practical purposes.

Either way, I’d submit that faith, in response to grace, is the first step in justice or righteousness for man, and that it orients us towards the true Good, towards God, but that it in no way guarantees that we’ll remain there let alone continue to walk in that way of justice or righteousness, which is expected to be owned more and more by ourselves as we do remain on that path, responding to God’s grace, working out our salvation with Him as time and opportunity allows with more expected from those given more (Luke 12:48). Thoughts, etc?
We are saved the moment that we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation (Romans 3:22-28; 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8 etc..). The demons believe that Jesus is God and that His death, burial and resurrection "happened" BUT they are not trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of salvation, which is what it means to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16). The demons do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved.

To say that righteousness/works are an inevitable and intrinsic by-product of faith is a good way of explaining it, rather than righteous/works are the very essence of faith. In regards to Romans 2:5-8, if one reads these passages of scripture in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works. However, as we read and study these passages of scripture, it's critical to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved (and unsaved) conduct their lives. These works done are the result of, not the means or basis of obtaining salvation.

So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but is a description of those to whom God does render life eternal. *Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath. *Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9).

What those passages of scripture convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means of obtaining salvation, but the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not. These deeds done out of faith are the fruit, not the root of salvation. If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8,9 and that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1 but that is clearly NOT what Paul said. *Also see (Romans 4:5-6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).
 
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BNR32FAN

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Thanks for the clarification. I assumed that is what you meant. I believe God has given 100% ASSURANCE in many promises in the Scriptures & does make many distinctions between the believers & the reprobate. Those who are reprobate are those JESUS NEVER KNEW. There was no relationship.

Some will mention, for example, a passage in Hebrews.

Heb 6:1-9 Therefore let us leave the ELEMENTARY doctrine of Christ & GO ON TO MATURITY, not laying again a foundation of REPENTANCE FROM DEAD WORKS & faith toward God & of instruction about washings, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead & ETERNAL JUDGMENT.

3And this we will do IF God permits.

4For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift & have shared in the Holy Spirit & have tasted the goodness of the word of God & the powers of the age to come & then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm & holding him up to contempt.

7BECAUSE...

land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it & PRODUCES A CROP useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, RECEIVES A BLESSING FROM GOD.

8But IF it bears THORNS & THISTLES, it is worthless & near to being cursed & its end is to be burned.

9Though we speak IN THIS WAY,

YET... {this is the yet of Scripture}

IN YOUR CASE--BELOVED--we feel SURE OF BETTER THINGS, things that BELONG TO SALVATION.

Here again is the repetitious pattern of Biblical teaching on those who produce fruit, a crop to maturity & those who don't produce fruit or a crop, but rather end up producing thorns & thistles. The tares, the thorns & thistles and fruitless branches are thrown into the fire & burned.

These are the reprobate, who do not produce any fruit or crop of any kind. The parable of the seed & the soils is a classic example. Doing a harmony of them in the gospels shows plainly the first three are not saved, only the last soil that produced a crop are the saved.

One can boast all they want on supposed good works, etc. but that doesn't bring salvation & knowing Christ experientially.

Matt 7:15-20 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16You will recognize them BY THEIR FRUITS. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?

17So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18A healthy tree CANNOT bear bad fruit, nor can a CORRUPT tree bear good fruit. 19Every tree that DOES NOT BEAR GOOD FRUIT is cut down & thrown into the fire. 20Thus you will RECOGNIZE THEM by their fruits.

21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

22On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy IN YOUR NAME & cast out demons in your name & do many mighty works in your name?’ 23And then will I declare to them, ‘I NEVER KNEW YOU; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

And as to the book of life, the LAMB'S book of life:

Luke 10:17-22 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. 18And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

19Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents & scorpions, & over all the power of the enemy & nothing shall by any means hurt you. 20Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you;

BUT...{there is that Scriptural one surprising us with the truth}

RATHER REJOICE BECAUSE YOUR NAMES ARE WRITTEN IN HEAVEN! {And they hadn't even died yet & not for many years}

21In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit & said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven & earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise & prudent & has revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed GOOD IN YOUR SIGHT. 22All things are delivered to me of my Father & no man knows who the Son is, but the Father; & who the Father is, but the Son & HE TO WHOM THE SON WILL REVEAL HIM.

Phil 4:3 Yes, and I ask you, my true yokefellow, to help these women who have labored with me for the gospel, along with Clement & THE REST OF MY FELLOW WORKERS--WHOSE NAMES ARE IN THE BOOK OF LIFE.

Paul said this with absolute CONFIDENCE & ASSURANCE & yet all of them were still alive & hadn't died yet. That is the 100% assurance we can have in what Christ has done to save us. Again salvation is not based on anything of ourselves, not of us. It is a gift but moreso--we become a new creation, no longer to go back to what we were before. We don't consider Christ the same anymore, as Paul taught.

Daniel 12:1 But at that time your people--everyone whose name is found written in the book--WILL BE DELIVERED.

Heb 12:23 ...In joyful assembly, to the congregation of the firstborn, ENROLLED IN HEAVEN. You have come to God the judge of all men, to the spirits of the righteous made PERFECT...

Heb 12:2 '...the author and PERFECTER of our faith...'

I Pet 5:10 After you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ, will HIMSELF PERFECT, confirm, strengthen and establish you.

I John 5:10-13 He that believes on the Son of God has the witness IN HIMSELF. He that believes NOT God has MADE HIM A LIAR--

BECAUSE... (plain reason given) he believes not THE RECORD THAT GOD GAVE CONCERNING HIS SON.

11And this IS THE RECORD, that God has given to us ETERNAL LIFE & this life is in his Son. 12He that has the Son has life & he that has not the Son of God HAS NOT LIFE.

13These things have I WRITTEN TO YOU WHO BELIEVE ON THE NAME OF THE SON OF GOD, SO THAT YOU MAY KNOW THAT YOU HAVE ETERNAL LIFE--& that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Amazing how Scripture defines precisely what is the written record of God & His personal witness concerning those who believe on the name of the Son of God & who have the very Witness IN THEMSELVES, JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF.

This assurance & record WRITTEN DOWN was to make sure we KNOW THAT WE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE! 100% record of truth.

Now, just as true believers are indwelt by the Holy Spirit & sealed with Him UNTIL THE DAY OF REDEMPTION (not condemnation), as the GUARANTEE of the salvation God has freely given us as a gift, not something we can earn--

so Jesus indwells us along with the Holy Spirit & along with the Father--in fact, Jesus promises to be with us ALWAYS--those disciples of His--even to the very close of this present age!

He doesn't depart from us, though He may discipline us as His children. And some who are His do produce fruit--it is recognizable--as well as those who don't--some may only produce 30 fold. Others may produce 60 fold & some even 100 fold.

Though the thief on the cross with Christ that eventually repented of his former words & believed in Christ, didn't produce much fruit due to time constraint (he did bear his testimony to all who were observing the crucifixions & bearing testimony that Jesus was guiltless & not deserving of this death).

Most all of his life were evil deeds. But (there it is again) he was promised to be with Christ in paradise that very day after their physical deaths! Hallelujah for the assurance of God, bearing record in the Scriptures, of those who believe in Christ, that they indeed have ETERNAL LIFE.

Bless you friend but I believe you made a mistake in your paraphrase of John 15.

You said “The tares, the thorns & thistles and fruitless branches are thrown into the fire & burned“

In this message Jesus was speaking only to His 11 faithful apostles. There were no tares present. Verse 2 Jesus says He (The Father) cuts off every branch in Me that does not bear fruit. the branches who are “in Christ” and attached to the vine (Christ) are believers. Jesus is warning His 11 faithful apostles of the consequences of failing to bear fruit and failing to abide in Him. This is why He told them “abide (remain) in Me”. He wouldn’t have said this if they were incapable of failing to abide in Him.
 
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BNR32FAN

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We are saved the moment that we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation (Romans 3:22-28; 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8 etc..). The demons believe that Jesus is God and that His death, burial and resurrection "happened" BUT they are not trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of salvation, which is what it means to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16). The demons do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved.

To say that righteousness/works are an inevitable and intrinsic by-product of faith is a good way of explaining it, rather than righteous/works are the very essence of faith. In regards to Romans 2:5-8, if one reads these passages of scripture in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works. However, as we read and study these passages of scripture, it's critical to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved (and unsaved) conduct their lives. These works done are the result of, not the means or basis of obtaining salvation.

So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but is a description of those to whom God does render life eternal. *Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath. *Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9).

What those passages of scripture convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means of obtaining salvation, but the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not. These deeds done out of faith are the fruit, not the root of salvation. If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8,9 and that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1 but that is clearly NOT what Paul said. *Also see (Romans 4:5-6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

Demons are condemned because of their lawlessness and lack of disobedience. That’s why they were banished from heaven in the first place. James did say we are saved by the type of faith that produces works and a faith that does not produce works is not a saving faith in James 2:14. “can that faith (faith without works) save him?
 
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Danthemailman

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Demons are condemned because of their lawlessness and lack of disobedience. That’s why they were banished from heaven in the first place. James did say we are saved by the type of faith that produces works and a faith that does not produce works is not a saving faith in James 2:14. “can that faith (faith without works) save him?
Their lawlessness and lack of obedience is a manifestation of their rebellion and lack of faith. In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe in/have faith in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation.

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.

James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Saving faith in Christ is apart from the merit of works, but not apart from the presence of works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). Perfect harmony. :oldthumbsup:
 
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BNR32FAN

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Their lawlessness and lack of obedience is a manifestation of their rebellion and lack of faith. In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe in/have faith in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation.

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.

James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Saving faith in Christ is apart from the merit of works, but not apart from the presence of works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). Perfect harmony. :oldthumbsup:

Demons are fallen angels who know exactly who Jesus is and The Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are One God. I’m confident you would agree they are not 3 Gods and that angels have always been aware of the Trinity? Correct me if I’m wrong but to my knowledge salvation is not offered to angels in the scriptures. To say their lawlessness is derived from their lack of faith is an assumption that is not addressed in the scriptures. All we know is they were banished from heaven because of their rebellion against God.

James 2:14-26 can also be referring to someone who did not abide in Christ. He very well could be speaking about a true believer who failed to abide and doesn’t have love for others. John 15:1-10 Jesus warns His 11 faithful apostles of the consequences of failing to bear fruit and failing to abide in Him. These men where true believers chosen by God who had a genuine faith.
 
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Danthemailman

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Demons are fallen angels who know exactly who Jesus is and The Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are One God. I’m confident you would agree they are not 3 Gods and that angels have always been aware of the Trinity? Correct me if I’m wrong but to my knowledge salvation is not offered to angels in the scriptures. To say their lawlessness is derived from their lack of faith is an assumption that is not addressed in the scriptures. All we know is they were banished from heaven because of their rebellion against God.

James 2:14-26 can also be referring to someone who did not abide in Christ. He very well could be speaking about a true believer who failed to abide and doesn’t have love for others. John 15:1-10 Jesus warns His 11 faithful apostles of the consequences of failing to bear fruit and failing to abide in Him. These men where true believers chosen by God who had a genuine faith.
I believe the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one God and not three Gods. The lawlessness of demons is derived from their lack of trust and reliance in God (which in contrast, is involved in faith of believers, whose trust and reliance is in Jesus Christ for salvation) and instead, their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works. Nothing in James 2:14-26 suggests that those who merely “say claim” (key word) they have faith but have no works to evidence their claim were genuine believers who failed to abide in Christ. Sounds to me like you have an agenda.

Jesus faithful 11 disciples did not fail to abide in Christ and the warning is not all about them, but is a general warning for all, particular “nominal” Christians like Judas Iscariot. In regards to John 15, I already covered this in post #63 from the link below.

Has the modern church lost its balance on grace?

Once again, in regards to John 15:2 (no loss of salvation here) I like how Greek scholar AT Robertson points out that there are two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). The fruitless (not bearing fruit, mh peron karpon) the vine-dresser "takes away" (airei) or prunes away. Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas. - John 15:2 Commentary - Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament :oldthumbsup:
 
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Mathetes66

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"Bless you friend but I believe you made a mistake in your paraphrase of John 15. You said “The tares, the thorns & thistles and fruitless branches are thrown into the fire & burned.“ In this message Jesus was speaking ONLY to His 11 faithful apostles. There were no tares present."

You didn't quote verse 1 & 3 with verse two. In these beginning verses Jesus is not using 'you' referring directly to the apostles but generic terms for branches. He is indeed referring the the fruitless branches that are taken away (not directly referring to the disciples.)

So indeed these beginning verses are talking about the many different teachings concerning fruitless trees or vines or bad seed sown by the devil or bad soil not producing any fruit or a crop to maturity.

This is the consistent teaching throughout the gospels that Jesus presents. You want to divorce this consistent teaching from the harmony in the NT. So you didn't read even the first two verses correctly & saying Jesus was ONLY speaking to the apostles. The plain text shows otherwise when talking about the initial fruitless branches being taken away.

And in verse 3, Jesus pronounces His apostles as ALREADY MADE CLEAN. Seems to be a direct reference back to chapter 13 when all the apostles were clean except ONE: THE SON OF PERDITION. He was the only lost one.

Not one branch is ever APART from the vine, whether fruitless or not. So I believe you are reading something into it that isn't there in the text & isn't consistent or harmonized with the rest of Scripture.

And again you leave out the context and only pick isolated verses out. Again Jesus is not directly referring to ONLY His apostles in verses 5 & 6.

"The ONE who remains in Me & I in him, will bear much fruit. For apart from Me you can do nothing. 6IF {CONDITIONAL} ANYONE does not remain in Me, HE is like a branch that is thrown away & withers. SUCH BRANCHES are gathered up, thrown into the fire & burned."

Again it is talking specifically about the fruitless branches: 'the one...if anyone...he is like...such branches, not referring directly to the apostles but in general about the fruitless branches. It is you who needs to do better exegesis of the passage, my brother.

You seem to also ignore vs 16 & vs 19 in the context. Jesus already knew His apostles would produce fruit, BECAUSE HE CHOSE THEM to be the ones to evangelize & plant churches & bear fruit.

And they were NOT of the world like unbelievers are because Jesus had ALREADY CHOSEN THEM OUT OF THE WORLD.

CONTEXT is so very important to know so that faulty interpretations are not made. And harmonizing it with the rest of the Scriptures.

But I am not going to go through the whole passage, as these examples are more than sufficient to show your eisogetical conclusion is not as the whole of the context is teaching, in my understanding nor harmonizing with other teachings similar in the Scriptures, as I gave some of them.

And Jesus in another verse shows the parallel idea of the seed planted in soil BY THE HEAVENLY FATHER, just as the Father is the One who is the Vinedresser here in John 15 & is the One who removes the fruitless branches. Details are very important in context not to ignore. Here Jesus makes it plain again:

Matt 15:11-14 Jesus called the crowd to Him & said, “LISTEN & UNDERSTAND! 11A man is not defiled by what enters his mouth, but by what comes out of it.” 12Then the disciples came to Him & said, “Are You aware that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this?” But Jesus replied, “EVERY PLANT that My Heavenly Father has NOT planted will be pulled up by its roots. Disregard them! They are blind guides. If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit.”

Here again Jesus is referring to those who are unbelievers, not believers. It parallels once again His teaching on not pulling up the wheat with the tares. Let them grow up and then the tares can be uprooted & thrown into the fire & burned.

Jesus is consistent in His teaching throughout the gospels: let Scripture interpret Scripture & harmonize.

There are many more examples that can be used, such as Romans 11 where Paul is talking about the nation of Israel vs the Gentile nations & the branches broken off the olive tree & a remnant being saved who believed--versus those who disbelieved & were removed.

Much more can be shared but I will stop here. I am thankful for the challenges. Just as Jesus warned & Paul warned & the writer of Hebrews warned in the midst of these passages: there are those who believe and those who don't; there are those who have been chosen & taken out of the world & no longer a part of it & produce fruit & those who don't.
 
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BNR32FAN

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I believe the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one God and not three Gods. The lawlessness of demons is derived from their lack of trust and reliance in God (which in contrast, is involved in faith of believers, whose trust and reliance is in Jesus Christ for salvation) and instead, their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works. Nothing in James 2:14-26 suggests that those who merely “say claim” (key word) they have faith but have no works to evidence their claim were genuine believers who failed to abide in Christ. Sounds to me like you have an agenda.

Jesus faithful 11 disciples did not fail to abide in Christ and the warning is not all about them, but is a general warning for all, particular “nominal” Christians like Judas Iscariot. In regards to John 15, I already covered this in post #63 from the link below.

Has the modern church lost its balance on grace?

Once again, in regards to John 15:2 (no loss of salvation here) I like how Greek scholar AT Robertson points out that there are two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). The fruitless (not bearing fruit, mh peron karpon) the vine-dresser "takes away" (airei) or prunes away. Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas. - John 15:2 Commentary - Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament :oldthumbsup:

The angel’s lack and trust in God of what exactly? That they will receive salvation? They were already in heaven. They didn’t need to rely on Christ for salvation because they already had it. They had eternal life in heaven and lost it because of their disobedience.

Your commentary on John 15 is against based on assumptions not the context that is presented in the scriptures. You assume the branches that are cut off are only have a “cosmic connection” but that’s not what the scripture says. Your assumption is a desperate attempt to twist the scriptures into what you want them to say instead of acknowledging what they actually say. Can you not see this? Look at the context and who Jesus is speaking to.

“"I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in Me, and I in YOU. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so NEITHER CAN YOU UNLESS you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me YOU can do nothing. If ANYONE does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. IF YOU abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. My Father is glorified by this, that YOU bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. IF YOU keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love. These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full. "This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. You are My friends IF YOU do what I command you.”
‭‭JOHN‬ ‭15:1-14‬ ‭NASB‬‬

These verses are filled with conditions/requirements that His 11 apostles MUST adhere to in order to abide in Him. Why would Jesus say “unless you abide in Me” or “if you abide in Me” if they are incapable of failing to abide? We know they had a genuine faith. Jesus specifically says the very same night in His prayer to The Father that they believe and are not of this world.

“for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me. I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours; and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them.

I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
‭‭JOHN‬ ‭17:8-10, 14-16‬ ‭NASB‬‬

This message was not to everyone it was directly to His 11 apostles which is why He says “you” about 15 times throughout the message. Sure it applies to all of us but the message was directed specifically to His apostles. Surely you can see this you just refuse to accept it. What good is it to spread the gospel if it isn’t the truth? This garbage about a “cosmic connection” is just a bunch of rubbish that someone came up with who can’t accept the scriptures for what they actually say and has to resort to adding assumptions not supported by the context to reach their conclusion. Heaven forbid someone might admit they’ve made a mistake and that the very churches established by the apostles might be right. I swallowed my pride about 3 years ago when I had to admit I was wrong about eternal security and faith without works. It wasn’t easy but it was necessary.
 
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fhansen

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You and I have yet to attain the Resurrection as we are still living. The communion of saints have yet to attain the Resurrection as well because they too await the Second Coming of Christ.

I don’t think the context suggests Paul was speaking of falling short of God’s redemptive Grace.

We can look at the text.

Philippians 3: NASB

7But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ. 8More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, 9and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from theLaw, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comesfrom God on the basis of faith, 10that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death;11in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

12Not that I have already obtained itor have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. 13Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, 14I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.15Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, have this attitude; and if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that also to you;16however, let us keep living by that same standard to which we have attained.
I'm certain that Paul had a VHLA (Very High Level of Assurance-just made that up :)) in light of everything he experienced and the fruits evident in his life-without doubt few personally knew the Lord better than he did- but I also believe he would've had a great deal of humility to balance that out in light of an awareness of his human weaknesses and limitations, and that would've given him at least some pause in being over-confident about his eternal status.
 
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Mathetes66

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"I'm certain that Paul had a VHLA (Very High Level of Assurance-just made that up.)"

That's a good one, fhanson. LOL.

A friend of mine altered the OSAS statement a bit and I liked it: ASASSLS: Once saved always saved so live saved.
 
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I'm certain that Paul had a VHLA (Very High Level of Assurance-just made that up :)) in light of everything he experienced and the fruits evident in his life-without doubt few personally knew the Lord better than he did- but I also believe he would've had a great deal of humility to balance that out in light of an awareness of his human weaknesses and limitations, and that would've given him at least some pause in being over-confident about his eternal status.
Yes humility is important as we still have a flesh which wars with the Spirit.
 
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Are we saved by the simple act of faith, by the sheer brute fact of faith IOW, as if believing that Jesus is God and died for our sins is, by itself, enough to save us? Or do even demons believe that?

It is necessary first to distinguish between faith and belief.

Here it looks as though the two are considered to be the same, especially since mention was made of the demons believing, which is a passage that clearly draws the distinction between the two.
 
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BNR32FAN

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You didn't quote verse 1 & 3 with verse two. In these beginning verses Jesus is not using 'you' referring directly to the apostles but generic terms for branches. He is indeed referring the the fruitless branches that are taken away (not directly referring to the disciples.)

So indeed these beginning verses are talking about the many different teachings concerning fruitless trees or vines or bad seed sown by the devil or bad soil not producing any fruit or a crop to maturity.

This is the consistent teaching throughout the gospels that Jesus presents. You want to divorce this consistent teaching from the harmony in the NT. So you didn't read even the first two verses correctly & saying Jesus was ONLY speaking to the apostles. The plain text shows otherwise when talking about the initial fruitless branches being taken away.

And in verse 3, Jesus pronounces His apostles as ALREADY MADE CLEAN. Seems to be a direct reference back to chapter 13 when all the apostles were clean except ONE: THE SON OF PERDITION. He was the only lost one.

Not one branch is ever APART from the vine, whether fruitless or not. So I believe you are reading something into it that isn't there in the text & isn't consistent or harmonized with the rest of Scripture.

And again you leave out the context and only pick isolated verses out. Again Jesus is not directly referring to ONLY His apostles in verses 5 & 6.

"The ONE who remains in Me & I in him, will bear much fruit. For apart from Me you can do nothing. 6IF {CONDITIONAL} ANYONE does not remain in Me, HE is like a branch that is thrown away & withers. SUCH BRANCHES are gathered up, thrown into the fire & burned."

Again it is talking specifically about the fruitless branches: 'the one...if anyone...he is like...such branches, not referring directly to the apostles but in general about the fruitless branches. It is you who needs to do better exegesis of the passage, my brother.

You seem to also ignore vs 16 & vs 19 in the context. Jesus already knew His apostles would produce fruit, BECAUSE HE CHOSE THEM to be the ones to evangelize & plant churches & bear fruit.

And they were NOT of the world like unbelievers are because Jesus had ALREADY CHOSEN THEM OUT OF THE WORLD.

CONTEXT is so very important to know so that faulty interpretations are not made. And harmonizing it with the rest of the Scriptures.

But I am not going to go through the whole passage, as these examples are more than sufficient to show your eisogetical conclusion is not as the whole of the context is teaching, in my understanding nor harmonizing with other teachings similar in the Scriptures, as I gave some of them.

And Jesus in another verse shows the parallel idea of the seed planted in soil BY THE HEAVENLY FATHER, just as the Father is the One who is the Vinedresser here in John 15 & is the One who removes the fruitless branches. Details are very important in context not to ignore. Here Jesus makes it plain again:

Matt 15:11-14 Jesus called the crowd to Him & said, “LISTEN & UNDERSTAND! 11A man is not defiled by what enters his mouth, but by what comes out of it.” 12Then the disciples came to Him & said, “Are You aware that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this?” But Jesus replied, “EVERY PLANT that My Heavenly Father has NOT planted will be pulled up by its roots. Disregard them! They are blind guides. If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit.”

Here again Jesus is referring to those who are unbelievers, not believers. It parallels once again His teaching on not pulling up the wheat with the tares. Let them grow up and then the tares can be uprooted & thrown into the fire & burned.

Jesus is consistent in His teaching throughout the gospels: let Scripture interpret Scripture & harmonize.

There are many more examples that can be used, such as Romans 11 where Paul is talking about the nation of Israel vs the Gentile nations & the branches broken off the olive tree & a remnant being saved who believed--versus those who disbelieved & were removed.

Much more can be shared but I will stop here. I am thankful for the challenges. Just as Jesus warned & Paul warned & the writer of Hebrews warned in the midst of these passages: there are those who believe and those who don't; there are those who have been chosen & taken out of the world & no longer a part of it & produce fruit & those who don't.

I wasn’t leaving anything out intentionally. Verse 1 is pretty much irrelevant. Verse 3 does say they are cleansed by the word He has given them then Verse 4 says what?

Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you UNLESS you abide in Me.”
‭‭JOHN‬ ‭15:4‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Wow “unless you abide in Me” doesn’t sound very reassuring. It indicates that they are capable of failing to abide. I noticed in your verse by verse explanation you skipped this verse. I wonder why? :scratch: But there’s more evidence of this.

IF you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.”
‭‭JOHN‬ ‭15:7‬ ‭NASB‬‬

If you abide in Me? That doesn’t sound very reassuring either. Again indicating that they are capable of failing to abide and may I politely point out that both of these verses are in fact directed to the apostles indicated by the word “you” as I stated before.

IF you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.”
‭‭JOHN‬ ‭15:10‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Again a condition/requirement for abiding and again an indication that they are capable of failing to abide and of course again specifically directed to His apostles.

You said “So you didn't read even the first two verses correctly & saying Jesus was ONLY speaking to the apostles. The plain text shows otherwise when talking about the initial fruitless branches being taken away.”

What I said is correct. Jesus was in fact only talking to His apostles (since they are the only people present) about fruitless branches and warning them of the consequences of failing to bear fruit and failing to abide in Him.

You said “Not one branch is ever APART from the vine”? Like so many others you don’t understand the definition of the Greek word that was inaccurately translated to “taken away or lifted up” by Protestant translators who didn’t like the idea of branches being cut off or removed from the vine. So let’s examine the actual Greek definition of the word so we can have a more accurate understanding of what’s being said.

taketh away

G142


Lemma:

αἴρω


Transliteration:

aírō


Pronounce:

ah'-ee-ro


Part of Speech:

Verb


Language:

greek


Description:

1) to raise up, elevate, lift up a) to raise from the ground, take up: stones b) to raise upwards, elevate, lift up: the hand c) to draw up: a fish

2) to take upon one's self and carry what has been raised up, to bear

3) to bear away what has been raised, carry off a) to move from its place b) to take off or away what is attached to anything c) to remove d) to carry off, carry away with one e) to appropriate what is taken f) to take away from another what is his or what is committed to him, to take by force g) to take and apply to any use h) to take from among the living, either by a natural death, or by violence i) cause to cease

The branch is attached to the vine so the correct translation would be to cut off or remove. Anyway I don’t see how you can take away a branch from the vine if it is still attached.

Verse 6 the word “anyone” does not exclude the apostles and it certainly refutes your statement “Not one branch is ever APART from the vine, whether fruitless or not.” Are they cast away to wither then cast in the fire while they are still attached to the vine?

Your not reading verse 16 correctly. Jesus didn’t say I chose you because you will go and bear fruit. He said I chose you that (so that) you would go and bear fruit.

that


G2443


Lemma:

ἵνα


Transliteration:

hína


Pronounce:

hin'-ah


Part of Speech:

Conjunction


Language:

greek


Description:

1) that, in order that, so that


“You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.”
‭‭JOHN‬ ‭15:16‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Matthew 11 has nothing to do with this message. That is a completely different message saying that the Pharisees were not put in place by God. That has nothing to do with bearing fruit and it is not in reference to believers who are in Christ and attached to the vine. You just found an irrelevant verse pertaining to plants.

Yes Romans 11 proves that branches who are grafted in can be cut off and grafted in again if they repent. This just proves my point even more. I’m really surprised you used this as an example it actually supports the idea that those who are grafted into the vine can be cut off which you said was not possible.

I think that about wraps it up for now. I think I’ve successfully exposed your errors my friend. Hopefully you’ll be open minded and not take this offensively. Have a blessed day.
 
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fhansen

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We are saved the moment that we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation (Romans 3:22-28; 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8 etc..). The demons believe that Jesus is God and that His death, burial and resurrection "happened" BUT they are not trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of salvation, which is what it means to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16). The demons do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved.

To say that righteousness/works are an inevitable and intrinsic by-product of faith is a good way of explaining it, rather than righteous/works are the very essence of faith. In regards to Romans 2:5-8, if one reads these passages of scripture in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works. However, as we read and study these passages of scripture, it's critical to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved (and unsaved) conduct their lives. These works done are the result of, not the means or basis of obtaining salvation.

So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but is a description of those to whom God does render life eternal. *Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath. *Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9).

What those passages of scripture convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means of obtaining salvation, but the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not. These deeds done out of faith are the fruit, not the root of salvation. If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8,9 and that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1 but that is clearly NOT what Paul said. *Also see (Romans 4:5-6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).
Thank you for the thoughtful reply-and I'm glad that everyone's been gracious on this topic. I know all are sincere in their beliefs and in any case truth and its pursuit should be of highest value to a Christian. I guess my main concern is whether or not a Christian is still obligated to righteousness and obedience, as had been the case since Eden. And whether faith alone is truly sufficient for this purpose.

Jesus said that He didn't come to abolish the Law-and I've heard the various interpretations of this passage- and He similarly told the rich young ruler he must keep the commandments-and also that the pure of heart will see God. Hebrews 12:14 echoes this: "...without holiness no one will see the Lord. And all through the NT we hear warnings and admonishments, to believers, to be vigilant, to strive, be holy, be perfect, refrain from sin, remain faithful, remain in Christ, invest ones talents, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, generally with the loss of the Kingdom at stake. Otherwise branches grafted in can be cut back off and those who've tasted of the heavenly gift can still turn back away, etc.

Anyway, I'm convinced by both Scripture and historic teachings that humanity has been given a light, the light of love that is ineffably enormous and invaluable. And that we're not only shown mercy and forgiveness by that light but we're also meant and expected to reflect it, and grow in it, and that this is an intrinsic aspect of what it means to be justified, and therefore to be saved. Again, it's not a matter of whether or not Christ's work is sufficient; it's a matter of what's expected of us, in response. Does Christ's righteousness simply stand in for us, or is His righteousness expected to become ours, as we, too, enter communion with God as His adopted children.

FWIW the Catholic position is summed up fairly well by Gal 5:6: "The only thing that counts is faith working through love." More precisely and concisely yet perhaps are the following words of John of the Cross which are used as the basis of man's judgment at the end of the day in Catholic theology:
"At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love."
That's where faith is meant to lead to IMO. And that's what God, alone, can do in us.
 
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Mathetes66

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“Not one branch is ever APART from the vine”?

You misunderstood what I meant. I was not talking about the taking away. I was talking about ALL BRANCHES initially are a part of the vine or tree, etc. Branches don't grow apart from the vine. That is all I was saying.

"I wasn’t leaving anything out intentionally. Verse 1 is pretty much irrelevant."

EVERY VERSE, EVERY WORD OF GOD in Scripture is relevant and meaningful & profitable, especially to the full context. And I showed how relevant it was later in my post but perhaps you missed that.

"Like so many others you don’t understand the definition of the Greek word that was inaccurately translated to “taken away or lifted up” by Protestant translators who didn’t like the idea of branches being cut off or removed from the vine."

Not sure why you are bringing this divisive issue up about Protestants. It seems since you make a judgment upon Protestant translators of the Bible as inaccurately translating a certain Greek word & set yourself up as the authority over all those many translators fluent in the biblical languages & are seeking to correct them--I better back out of this thread for someone so eloquent & fluent in the biblical languages such as yourself in your comparing yourself to them.
 
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