FAITH...SOLELY?

[redleghunter]

I Clement 30:3.

Beautiful chapter and most sobering epistle to the Corinthians.

Yet like James he does not speak of our works justify us before a Holy God, but that our works speak louder than words. He’s right.

In fact in chapter 32.3 Clement confirms we are justified by faith:

Chapter 32. We are Justified Not by Our Own Works, But by Faith.

All these, therefore, were highly honoured, and made great, not for their own sake, or for their own works, or for the righteousness which they wrought, but through the operation of His will. And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

CHURCH FATHERS: Letter to the Corinthians (Clement)

I believe context matters and pitting Clement and James against Paul is not even theology the patristics would approve of. I believe St John Chrysostom applying the Scriptures in context said it best.

Chyrsostom Homily 5 on Colossians
For it is most of all apparent among the Gentiles, as he also says elsewhere, And that the Gentiles might glorify God for His mercy.Romans 15:9 For the great glory of this mystery is apparent among others also, but much more among these.

For, on a sudden, to have brought menmore senseless than stones to the dignity of Angels, simply through bare words, and faith alone, without any laboriousness, is indeed glory and richesof mystery: just as if one were to take a dog, quite consumed with hunger and the mange, foul, and loathsome to see, and not so much as able to move, but lying cast out, and make him all at once into a man, and to display him upon the royal throne.

They were wont to worship stones and the earth; but they learned that themselves are better both than the heaven and the sun, and that the whole world serves them; they were captives and prisoners of the devil: on a sudden they are placed above his head, and lay commands on him and scourge him: from being captives and slaves to demons, they have become the body of The Master of the Angels and the Archangels; from not knowing even what God is, they have become all at once sharers even in God's throne.

Chyrsostom Homily 5 on Colossians
Colossians 1:26-28

CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 5 on Colossians (Chrysostom)

 

[fhansen]

I cannot comment on the Roman catechism because I am not familiar enough with it. But your excerpts of that catechism on justification seem to describe the initial justification of baptism. I do not know if it continues on past that initial justification.

2007 With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator.

2008 The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man's free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man's merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.

2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God's wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

 

[redleghunter]

But couldn't that reconciliation involve being made truly righteous ourselves, as we'd expect God to want for us anyway, taking nothing away from He who made that possible, and then being expected to walk in that righteousness, with the option of not doing so also a possibility?

I think @Tree of Life answered this twice quite comprehensively.

We are called to live holy lives and Peter said be ye holy because our God is Holy.

Yet it is the Righteousness of God imputed to us through faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[HTacianas]

Beautiful chapter and most sobering epistle to the Corinthians.

Yet like James he does not speak of our works justify us before a Holy God, but that our works speak louder than words. He’s right.

In fact in chapter 32.3 Clement confirms we are justified by faith:

Chapter 32. We are Justified Not by Our Own Works, But by Faith.

All these, therefore, were highly honoured, and made great, not for their own sake, or for their own works, or for the righteousness which they wrought, but through the operation of His will. And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

CHURCH FATHERS: Letter to the Corinthians (Clement)

I believe context matters and pitting Clement and James against Paul is not even theology the patristics would approve of. I believe St John Chrysostom applying the Scriptures in context said it best.

Chyrsostom Homily 5 on Colossians
For it is most of all apparent among the Gentiles, as he also says elsewhere, And that the Gentiles might glorify God for His mercy.Romans 15:9 For the great glory of this mystery is apparent among others also, but much more among these.

For, on a sudden, to have brought menmore senseless than stones to the dignity of Angels, simply through bare words, and faith alone, without any laboriousness, is indeed glory and richesof mystery: just as if one were to take a dog, quite consumed with hunger and the mange, foul, and loathsome to see, and not so much as able to move, but lying cast out, and make him all at once into a man, and to display him upon the royal throne.

They were wont to worship stones and the earth; but they learned that themselves are better both than the heaven and the sun, and that the whole world serves them; they were captives and prisoners of the devil: on a sudden they are placed above his head, and lay commands on him and scourge him: from being captives and slaves to demons, they have become the body of The Master of the Angels and the Archangels; from not knowing even what God is, they have become all at once sharers even in God's throne.

Chyrsostom Homily 5 on Colossians
Colossians 1:26-28

CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 5 on Colossians (Chrysostom)

You are creating a faith OR works dichotomy and claiming works alone do not justify us. While you are right that works do not justify us, your premise is faulty. It is not faith OR works, it is faith AND works.

No one is pitting one against the other. They all agree.

 

[Halbhh]

I think @Tree of Life answered this twice quite comprehensively.

We are called to live holy lives and Peter said be ye holy because our God is Holy.

Yet it is the Righteousness of God imputed to us through faith in Jesus Christ.

It seems to me you are accurately paraphrasing the Catholic catechism sections I referred to above.

In different wording. It's quite a congruence. It's just like you speak a different dialect (one more like my own native one), and it's a very good correspondence, in all points so far.

 

[redleghunter]

It surprises to read the actual Catholic view on Justification. See just above in post #15.

I'll post the equally informative Grace section next, just below.

I guess it depends on how some of the Catholic faithful interpret the CCC. I don’t say that facetiously but do so critically. Because I get different answers.

 

[redleghunter]

It seems to me you are accurately paraphrasing the Catholic catechism sections I referred to above.

In different wording. It's quite a congruence. It's just like you speak a different dialect (one more like my own native one), and it's a very good correspondence, in all points so far.

The problem with some of these threads (not this one) is they start with straw man traps. If a Protestant defends Justification by faith alone they are obviously communicating we can do whatever we want and “bring God in to a brothel with us.” Then the thread goes downhill from there.

 

[fhansen]

No. Salvation is not OF OURSELVES. And yes it IS taking away from what Christ did on the cross & the resurrection! Salvation is not obtained BY works but we are saved unto good works, being Christ's workmanship now in the new creation. We are no longer the same! We have eternal life now, passing from spiritual death into eternal life.

I don't cry to Jesus to save me because I bring things of myself that will make me right before a holy God. Then I am not depending solely on Christ to save me. I call upon Him to do the saving! And He does seeing my faith & enables me by His grace.

Can I save myself after I first believe? No. I must CONTINUE to be saved by grace through faith! It doesn't change. The same PROCESS continues to occur! There is a synergy of cooperation as Philippians 2:12,13 & various other verses show (see my other thread where I show many verses on this). I am COMMANDED to work OUT the salvation God has given me, to grow up into that salvation to maturity in Christ, from a babe to a fully grown mature person. Do I save myself in doing this? No.

I cannot save myself. But when I do as Christ did while walking on this earth: submitting His will to doing the Father's will & relying upon the filling & empowering of the Holy Spirit (modeling what each believing human being must do in order to follow Him)--THEN I die to myself & Christ lives His life in and through me--working in me both to WILL & to DO, TO BE WORKING FOR HIS GOOD & PLEASURABLE WILL.

And the Spirit transforms us, going from one degree of glory to another, ever becoming more like Christ as He transforms us. Who does that? Christ does not me.

Here is the apostle Paul showing the hard effort & work He did was all manifested by His dependence on the grace of God!

I Cor 15:9-11 For I am the least of the apostles and am unworthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. But by the grace of God I am what I am & His grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them--yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me.

'Yet not I, but Christ lives in me...'

'Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will.'

And this is in direct contrast what Peter said, depending upon Himself & not Christ & His grace:

Mark 14:29 But Peter said to Him, "Even though all may fall away, yet I WILL NOT."

We will fall in the same manner of disobedience if we depend upon ourselves.

2 Cor 4:5-18 For we do not proclaim ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake. 6For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” made His light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

7Now we have this treasure in jars of clay TO SHOW that this surpassingly great power is from God & NOT FROM US. 8We are pressed on all sides, but not crushed; perplexed, but not in despair; 9persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed.

10We always carry around IN OUR BODY the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be revealed IN OUR BODY. 11For we who are alive are always consigned to death for Jesus’ sake, so that THE LIFE OF JESUS may also be revealed in our mortal bodies. 12So then, death is at work in us, but life is at work in you.

13And in keeping with what is written: “I believed, therefore I have spoken,” we who have the same SPIRIT OF FAITH also believe & therefore speak, 14knowing that the One who raised the Lord Jesus will also raise us with Jesus & present us with you IN HIS PRESENCE.

15All this is for your benefit, so that THE GRACE that is extending to more & more people may OVERFLOW IN THANKSGIVING, TO THE GLORY OF GOD.

We surrender to Him & rely on His grace DAILY. He brings the growth! Its an amazing process! Hallelujah!

And yet, God, of course, is the one who decides how we're to be saved. If He wants us to be involved at all, presumably for our best interest, then so be it. In Catholic theology man can't possibly be saved without the sacrificial work of Christ on the cross, and yet man can still refuse to be saved. Or he can turn back away from God at any step along the way. And I tend to think, from observation, that many Protestants live as if that is true anyway.

 

[HTacianas]

2007 With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator.

2008 The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man's free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man's merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.

2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God's wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

This is what I was expecting:

"The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man's free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful."

It's nearly identical to that found in the Confession of Dositheus:

"Consequently, he is not able of himself to do any work worthy of a Christian life, although he has it in his own power to will, or not to will, to co-operate with grace."

 

[redleghunter]

You are creating a faith OR works dichotomy and claiming works alone do not justify us. While you are right that works do not justify us, your premise is faulty. It is not faith OR works, it is faith AND works.

No one is pitting one against the other. They all agree.

I let two early fathers opine on the matter.

There is no dichotomy because only the Works of Christ save.

 

[fhansen]

The problem with some of these threads (not this one) is they start with straw man traps. If a Protestant defends Justification by faith alone they are obviously communicating we can do whatever we want and “bring God in to a brothel with us.” Then the thread goes downhill from there.

I wouldn't do that. But I think the Faith Alone doctrine is worth examining. Because to the extent that it doesn't exclude actual internal righteousness and obedience from being an essential and necessary part of ones justice as they continue their walk with God then the doctrine is correct. To the extent that it separates the two, as it does in some people's minds to the extent that they even believe righteous living isn't necessary for a believer, then that structuring of the doctrine would be out of sync with the gospel.

 

[redleghunter]

I wouldn't do that. But I think the Faith Alone doctrine is worth examining. Because to the extent that it doesn't exclude actual internal righteousness and obedience from being an essential and necessary part of ones justice as they continue their walk with God then the doctrine is correct. To the extent that it separates the two, as it does in some people's minds to the extent that they even believe righteous living isn't necessary for a believer, then that structuring of the doctrine would be out of sync with the gospel.

Romans 5 truly clears things up.

 

[fhansen]

Romans 5 truly clears things up.

Fine, as long as one perseveres.

 

[redleghunter]

Fine, as long as one perseveres.

They must.

 

[Mathetes66]

"And yet, God, of course, is the one who decides how we're to be saved. If He wants us to be involved at all, presumably for our best interest, then so be it. In Catholic theology man can't possibly be saved without the sacrificial work of Christ on the cross, and yet man can still refuse to be saved. Or he turn back away from God at any step along the way."

Thanks for responding to my post!

First of all God has ALREADY decided how one is saved, both past, present & future. The gospel message is the same, preached the same by every apostle & remains the same message spoke by our Lord & passed down to us to this very day. There is only one gospel & any other gospel preached is anathema!

Second, it isn't a matter of IF--He wants us to be involved--He has already revealed how that is to be accomplished in the regenerative & sanctifying work of the the indwelling Holy Spirit. We are indwelt now by His Spirit; He doesn't leave like He did in the OT. We are SEALED now with the Holy Spirit, as a downpayment until the day of redemption!

So being saved from the penalty of sin is accomplished at the point of being saved initially by grace through faith. That doesn't change.

However, as you stated Catholic theology has a YET or a BUT in the salvation process. It truly doesn't depend solely upon the sacrifice on the cross & the resurrection of Christ. The new creation can't somehow be UNDONE.

The first part is POSITIONAL--righteousness credited to our ACCOUNT.

However, because we are human, we still sin at times and we can grieve & even quench the Holy Spirit, walking again in our flesh. Such were those saints (simply means 'separated or called out ones') who were called out of the world & transferred from the kingdom of darkness of the devil & transferred into God's marvelous kingdom of light. That doesn't change.

But our PROGRESSION in the practical walk of holiness BY THE SPIRIT into the image of Christ can be hindered by our walking in the flesh. Those in the church at Corinth for example are a good example.

They continued to be babes in Christ, rather than growing up. So they were divisive, following men rather than Christ, etc. Did they stop being babes in Christ because of their sinning? No. But they stop their GROWTH up into their salvation toward maturity.

So what did Paul determine? Were they lost now? No. But he determined to know nothing among them except Jesus Christ & Him crucified. The crucified life needed to be emphasized in every aspect of their lives.

And they responded to it, showing changes & some growth again in the Spirit, although there were still some that needed DISCIPLINE.

The man in I Cor 5 did what not even unbelieving Gentiles did, he had his father's wife & wasn't at first repentant. So Paul told the body of Christ there to excommunicate him & that by Paul's authority as an apostle, he turned this man over to the power of the devil, for the destruction of his physical body, so that his spirit would BE SAVED IN THE DAY OF CHRIST.

He was saved positionally but was not being saved progressively in his growth due to sin. So if a true believer choses a sinful path, then church discipline may need to be applied if the first steps in Matthew 18 are ignored.

God will allow a person to be taken off this earth in physical death prematurely (whether in this case by Divine discipline or if someone kills themselves through drugs, suicide, etc.) if they continue in their sin.

However, this person did repent & thus didn't go all the way to his physical body being destroyed. God WILL discipline us if we are his children, chastising us, even severely, like He did repeatedly with Israel. (Heb 12)

So, I agree with you that some severe things can occur & God has already outlined for the body of Christ the steps that can be taken to deal with this.

Even in the OT, though king Saul disobeyed the LORD & even sought to contact a dead person (the prophet Samuel), which God made an EXCEPTION to His commandment not to do that, Samuel speaking as a departed soul, received revelation from God to predict Saul & his son's deaths the following day.

However, Samuel stated that Saul & his sons WOULD BE WITH HIM IN SHEOL, in the compartment where the believing saints went--Abraham's bosom or Gan Eden or Paradise, such as Jesus taught in Luke 16. Saul was saved but his life was cut short due to his disobedience. God hasn't changed. He will discipline those who are His, sometimes severely as in this case.

Jesus shows that the good seed He sows are the believers & followers in Him. He never teaches that this good seed somehow becomes the bad seed that the devil sows.

'Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted.'

 

[fhansen]

They must.

No, they must not. That's putting the cart ahead of the horse. Even Paul acknowledged in Phil 3 that he must continue to strive to attain the resurrection of the dead.

 

[redleghunter]

Thanks for responding to my post!

First of all God has ALREADY decided how one is saved, both past, present & future. The gospel message is the same, preached the same by every apostle & remains the same message spoke by our Lord & passed down to us to this very day. There is only one gospel & any other gospel preached is anathema!

Second, it isn't a matter of IF--He wants us to be involved--He has already revealed how that is to be accomplished in the regenerative & sanctifying work of the the indwelling Holy Spirit. We are indwelt now by His Spirit; He doesn't leave like He did in the OT. We are SEALED now with the Holy Spirit, as a downpayment until the day of redemption!

So being saved from the penalty of sin is accomplished at the point of being saved initially by grace through faith. That doesn't change.

However, as you stated Catholic theology has a YET or a BUT in the salvation process. It truly doesn't depend solely upon the sacrifice on the cross & the resurrection of Christ. The new creation can't somehow be UNDONE.

The first part is POSITIONAL--righteousness credited to our ACCOUNT.

However, because we are human, we still sin at times and we can grieve & even quench the Holy Spirit, walking again in our flesh. Such were those saints (simply means 'separated or called out ones') who were called out of the world & transferred from the kingdom of darkness of the devil & transferred into God's marvelous kingdom of light. That doesn't change.

But our PROGRESSION in the practical walk of holiness BY THE SPIRIT into the image of Christ can be hindered by our walking in the flesh. Those in the church at Corinth for example are a good example.

They continued to be babes in Christ, rather than growing up. So they were divisive, following men rather than Christ, etc. So what did Paul determine? Were they lost now? No. But he determined to know nothing among them except Jesus Christ & Him crucified. The crucified life needed to be emphasized in every aspect of their lives.

And they responded to it, showing changes & some growth again in the Spirit, although there were still some that needed DISCIPLINE.

The man in I Cor 5 did what not even unbelieving Gentiles did, he had his father's wife & wasn't at first repentant. So Paul told the body of Christ there to excommunicate him & that by Paul's authority as an apostle, he turned this man over to the power of the devil, for the destruction of his physical body, so that his spirit would BE SAVED

I truly cannot say more than you have. Well done.

 

[redleghunter]

No, they must not. That's putting the cart ahead of the horse. Even Paul acknowledged in Phil 3 that he must continue to strive to attain the resurrection of the dead.

Yes we must endure to the end. The Scriptures confirm this.

Only those who trust in Christ will get there.

 

[redleghunter]

No, they must not. That's putting the cart ahead of the horse. Even Paul acknowledged in Phil 3 that he must continue to strive to attain the resurrection of the dead.

Yes Paul said this because he was not dead yet.

 

[fhansen]

Thanks for responding to my post!

First of all God has ALREADY decided how one is saved, both past, present & future. The gospel message is the same, preached the same by every apostle & remains the same message spoke by our Lord & passed down to us to this very day. There is only one gospel & any other gospel preached is anathema!

Second, it isn't a matter of IF--He wants us to be involved--He has already revealed how that is to be accomplished in the regenerative & sanctifying work of the the indwelling Holy Spirit. We are indwelt now by His Spirit; He doesn't leave like He did in the OT. We are SEALED now with the Holy Spirit, as a downpayment until the day of redemption!

So being saved from the penalty of sin is accomplished at the point of being saved initially by grace through faith. That doesn't change.

However, as you stated Catholic theology has a YET or a BUT in the salvation process. It truly doesn't depend solely upon the sacrifice on the cross & the resurrection of Christ. The new creation can't somehow be UNDONE.

The YET or BUT are operative because we don't presume to know with 100% certainty what God, alone, knows with that kind of perfection: whose names are written in the Book of Life and whose are not, who are numbered among the elect and who are the reprobate. He's trustworthy and true; we're the wildcard.