Faith plus works

Neogaia777

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Sometime during or after you are saved or truly saved, you will find a very strong desire starting to develop to help other people and serve other people and do good work or works, and you will find great joy and pleasure and delight in it, "so much so" that you will want to do it "more", or (want) more of it, or over and over again and again... Just by putting yourself out there and following or learning to follow or walk in the Spirit maybe even, or something more structured, doesn't matter, the joy you get from it will be all that matters... And to get that from doing good things and many good things for others (also) is just "priceless", it's a win-win for everyone...

God Bless!
 
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Albion

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Friend, what are you talking about? "Power to save"? The Lord can save whoever he wants, be there faith, works, or neither.

We are saved by grace.
We all saved by faith which is received thanks to the gift of grace. Saving faith is not of ourselves.

When people misinterpret the verse in the epistle of James and say that both faith and works are active components in the attainment of salvation, they will say that grace is involved also, but they make works effective, efficacious. They are not; they are merely a characteristic or consequence of having saving faith.

No one can make his chances at salvation better by performing a lot of good deeds, but if there are none...his faith is called into question.
 
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Neogaia777

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Sometime during or after you are saved or truly saved, you will find a very strong desire starting to develop to help other people and serve other people and do good work or works, and you will find great joy and pleasure and delight in it, "so much so" that you will want to do it "more", or (want) more of it, or over and over again and again... Just by putting yourself out there and following or learning to follow or walk in the Spirit maybe even, or something more structured, doesn't matter, the joy you get from it will be all that matters... And to get that from doing good things and many good things for others (also) is just "priceless", it's a win-win for everyone...

God Bless!
But I also have learned and have had to learn to "careful" with that in this world also, maybe where a little wisdom might come in maybe...

God Bless!
 
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Shimokita

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We all saved by faith which is received thanks to the gift of grace. Saving faith is not of ourselves.
Friend, what are you talking about? Read the text:

"For by grace you have been saved through faith."

It simply does not state "we are saved by faith which is received thanks to the gift of grace." You seem to be simply making things up out of thin air. No offense.

When people misinterpret the verse in the epistle of James and say that both faith and works are active components in the attainment of salvation, they will say that grace is involved also, but they make works effective, efficacious. They are not; they are merely a characteristic or consequence of having saving faith.

No one can make his chances at salvation better by performing a lot of good deeds, but if there are none...his faith is called into question.
I don't know what people or teaching you are referring to, so you will have to take it up with them.
 
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Albion

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Friend, what are you talking about? Read the text:

"For by grace you have been saved through faith."
Which means that it is faith, not faith plus works. Just as the verse says.

To focus on grace is to sidestep the whole faith/works issue since we all agree that grace makes (whatever it is) possible.
 
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Neogaia777

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Sometime during or after you are saved or truly saved, you will find a very strong desire starting to develop to help other people and serve other people and do good work or works, and you will find great joy and pleasure and delight in it, "so much so" that you will want to do it "more", or (want) more of it, or over and over again and again... Just by putting yourself out there and following or learning to follow or walk in the Spirit maybe even, or something more structured, doesn't matter, the joy you get from it will be all that matters... And to get that from doing good things and many good things for others (also) is just "priceless", it's a win-win for everyone...

God Bless!

But I also have learned and have had to learn to "careful" with that in this world also, maybe where a little wisdom might come in maybe...

God Bless!
I like to do my good works "secretly" or in secret whenever and wherever possible, not because I'm somehow "afraid" of people seeing or finding out, or whatever, but it's just that, it brings me a little bit "more" of a "extra" "exquisite pleasure and delight" to do so, when it can be or can happen like that...

God Bless!
 
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Shimokita

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Which means that it is faith, not faith plus works. Just as the verse says.

To focus on grace is to sidestep the whole faith/works issue since we all agree that grace makes (whatever it is) possible.
Friend, of course I agree that we are saved by grace through faith, and not a result of works, just as the Scripture States.

And I also believe that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only, just as Sacred Scripture states.

Is a person justified by works, and not by faith only, just as Scripture states? Or is the Bible wrong?

Please let us know. Thank you.

And no, focusing on grace does not sidestep the issue. Catholics and Protestants have very different conceptions concerning the nature of grace and what it means to be "justified", which impacts the ways in which the verses are understood. If you are assuming that when I write I am operating in a Protestant framework, that when I used words like "grace" and "justified" that I mean them in the same sense that you mean them, you would be wrong.
 
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Albion

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JacksBratt

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LOL, yes, there was no love or good in this Catholic's heart whatsoever. Every single good act that he ever did was for his own selfish motivations, never out of love and never done merely to help anyone. I find this unverifiable anecdotal "evidence" to be quite fantastic. It reads much like a fictional tale that you see on an anti-Catholic website about Catholics who are always trying to earn their way into heaven. These fictional people and stories are created to create a boogeyman that one can contrast oneself to and boost one's ego for not being like him.
Sorry that it came across this way. He has since passed and is known by the town to be one of the nicest men.. which cannot do anything but glorify God... However, knowing him.... and watching him... even though he had a big heart, I could see it in him that he felt like it was more a duty than a voluntary service. There is a difference IMO.
 
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mister rogers

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Luther didn't start "Salvation by Grace through Faith", It began with God. It's always been given by Fathers Grace through Faith. One example is Israel. They were called out on Faith before they went into the wilderness and being put under the Law after going through the Red Sea.
Sorry if I gave the impression I thought otherwise. Correct, Luther simply reaffirmed (IMO) correct soteriology that Rome got away from.
 
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mark kennedy

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We all saved by faith which is received thanks to the gift of grace. Saving faith is not of ourselves.

When people misinterpret the verse in the epistle of James and say that both faith and works are active components in the attainment of salvation, they will say that grace is involved also, but they make works effective, efficacious. They are not; they are merely a characteristic or consequence of having saving faith.

No one can make his chances at salvation better by performing a lot of good deeds, but if there are none...his faith is called into question.
You had me right up until attainment, that's where I draw the line. Whatever works you do, the blessed fruit of the Holy Spirit in our lives, is as much a gift of God as anything in salvation. It's an affront to grace to believe that you can be saved by grace and then perfected by works, even though works necessarily follow. On the last day only God will be glorified, for that very reason.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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Just_a_Christian

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Ah, ok. Thanks! So, you still believe that we are saved by grace alone through faith alone?
This I believe.
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
1 Corinthians 15:1-2
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: - Ephesians 2:8
For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Romans 8:24
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Matthew 24:13
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Mark 16:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
Acts 22:16
Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Acts 10:47-48
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.For he that is dead is freed from sin.Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: - Romans 6:3-8
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
2 Corinthians 5:17
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Acts 2:21
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Romans 10:9
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:10
I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Luke 13:5
And they that heard it said, Who then can be saved?And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.
Luke 18:26-27
And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
2 Timothy 3:15-17
What do you believe?
In Him
 
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JacksBratt

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Do you have any evidence to suggest that he did good works to gain a reward?
What form of evidence would you be talking about? This was based on what I observed and what he taught his kids and the way he talked about it.. I knew him for a quarter century..
 
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Shimokita

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mister rogers

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In a debate about faith and works, there should be an agreed definition for both terms. So, what is faith? Is it a mere profession of belief that is granted by God's grace? What do you mean by works?
Luther's definitions of such vs. Rome's. Let's look into that.
 
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Albion

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You had me right up until attainment, that's where I draw the line. Whatever works you do, the blessed fruit of the Holy Spirit in our lives, is as much a gift of God as anything in salvation. It's an affront to grace to believe that you can be saved by grace and then perfected by works, even though works necessarily follow. On the last day only God will be glorified, for that very reason.

Grace and peace,
Mark
It looks to me that we are in agreement and your post is simply taking exception to the use of the word attainment. OK, substitute another one that you think says it better.
 
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mark kennedy

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It looks to me that we are in agreement and your post is simply taking exception to the use of the word attainment. OK, substitute another one that you think says it better.
I'm not trying to edit your post, it just sent up a warning flag. Of course we have some responsibility to work out our salvation in fear and trembling but we should be equally concerned with legalism and licentiousness. Traveling down the narrow path that leads to life, does in really matter which ditch you end up in?
 
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Shimokita

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I think the following handles your question quite well. I recommend it.

Learn the Key to Reconciling Faith and Works
Never mind. The link states this: "believers are justified, or declared righteous before God, solely by faith." This language is the exact opposite of James 2:24, so obviously the answer is that the language of the Bible is wrong. I cannot accept that, sorry.

Justification is not merely the initial declaration of righteousness before God. This is the root of the problem why Protestants cannot recite the language of James 2:24 in their theology. If you understood and used the nature of justification in the proper sense, you would not need to change the language of Scripture to fit your theology.
 
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