Faith plus works

[Shimokita]

It depends on who you worship. If you worship God you follow God's word. If you worship this or that church you follow church traditions.

One must actually read God's word, however, and it is readily apparent that you have not. The earliest Christians followed church traditions, just as Sacred Scripture instructed them to do so.

So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.​

 

[Shimokita]

I saw my father in law, a strict Catholic, enslaved by the thinking that he must do works. Every time someone was coming through a door, unloading groceries, dropped something on the ground, spilled something, was making a dinner, or any other thing that was physical... he would, as a reflex, ask to give them help.. jump up and "do" whatever he thought would benefit his soul... Even when he was close to 80 and had a stroke, he would try to help an able bodied man bring in one bag of groceries.

He was not free.. he was enslaved by this idea that he must do this. He didn't do it as an act of helps.. He did it as an action from which he would gain something..

Do you see the difference? He did it for reward.. not out of the kindness and service hood of someone that already had the reward.

. . .​

My father in law did what he did for self gain. It was selfish. It was not because he wanted to do it.. it was because he felt that he must do it for his salvation.

He was continually earning his salvation his whole life...

Not doing things for others.... BECAUSE he had salvation and knew he was saved.

LOL, yes, there was no love or good in this Catholic's heart whatsoever. Every single good act that he ever did was for his own selfish motivations, never out of love and never done merely to help anyone. I find this unverifiable anecdotal "evidence" to be quite fantastic. It reads much like a fictional tale that you see on an anti-Catholic website about Catholics who are always trying to earn their way into heaven. These fictional people and stories are created to create a boogeyman that one can contrast oneself to and boost one's ego for not being like him.

 

[JLB777]

Faith alone saves,

Can you produce a scripture that says “faith alone” saves?



JLB

 

[Jonaitis]

Can you produce a scripture that says “faith alone” saves?

JLB

Address my argument and you have a discussion.

 

[Neogaia777]

Good works, including obedience, are a fruit of someone who is or was truly saved, "Fruits" of walking in and with the Spirit, and we do not get or get to have them "right away" cause they take time...

But and I would like to add, there is great, great, great danger, in our trying to judge one another in this or comparing ourselves with one another in this, especially if so "we" can know or judge who is truly saved and who is or was not ever saved, ect, and by comparison, decide that we are saved, ect...

We should not be doing that... And I would begin to go as far as to say, if we are, I would question whether we or that person doing that was truly saved or not, cause they should know better, ect...? Because the truth of scripture teaches us and tells us so, unless they were never in the Truth to begin with, or rejected it (The Truth) (The Holy Spirit of Truth)...

Anyway, I cannot stress the danger and wrong enough...

We are usually wrong in a lot of cases when we do this as well... Besides it's being wrong to even be doing it...

But the fruit is evidence of one's truly being saved or not... but/and again, we are not to judge one another or each other in this, because oftentimes God see's it much more differently than we do, and it's just plain wrong for so many reasons and on so many levels...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Good works, including obedience, are a fruit of someone who is or was truly saved, but there is great, great, great danger, in our trying to judge one another in this or comparing ourselves with one another in this, especially if so "we" can know or judge who is truly saved and who is or was not ever saved, ect...

We should not be doing that... And I would begin to go as far as to say, if we are, I would question whether we or that person doing that was truly saved or not, cause they should know better, ect...? Because the truth of scripture teaches us and tells us so, unless they were never in the Truth to begin with, or rejected it (The Truth) (The Holy Spirit of Truth)...

Anyway, I cannot stress the danger and wrong enough...

We are usually wrong in a lot of cases when we do this as well... Besides it's being wrong to even be doing it...

But the fruit is evidence of one's truly being saved or not... but/and again, we are not to judge one another or each other in this, because oftentimes God see's it much more differently than we do, and it's just plain wrong for so many reasons and on so many levels...

God Bless!

It is not the works that save... So, do not make that mistake either...

God Bless!

 

[Ronald]

About Faith and works:
Faith without works is dead, as we were once dead to God. The "works" however is done by the Holy Spirit working through the Christian. He has prepared the works and so we (after enabled and being empowered by the Holy Spirit) cooperate, are empowered and guided by God to do good works. He gets the credit. The phrase, "by their fruit you will know them", is an example of some of these works: We bare fruit: love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, self control and against these there is no such law.
We practice these throughout our lives and the Holy Spirit grows them. It's true, we can't just say we have faith, sit down and do nothing. It's like saying you love someone, yet never did anything to help them, care for them ... they would be empty words. We must demonstrate our love. It takes effort to unselfishly extend ourselves towards loving one another, and that translates into helping them grow spiritually, physically, emotionally, financially, whatever they need. Missionaries go off and dig a well for those who need water, they don't just pray for them to have water. Show me your works, but God gets all the credit and in the end He says well done, good and faithful servant for participating in His plan and purpose. He has a perfect plan and so has factored in all our sin, errors, blunders and selfishness. In the end are works are tested with fire, to show what they were worth ... all works done in vain and not done in love towards things that will last eternal will burn. What remains is what God intended, what is holy and perfect, that passes on into eternity.

 

[Neogaia777]

About Faith and works:
Faith without works is dead, as we were once dead to God. The "works" however is done by the Holy Spirit working through the Christian. He has prepared the works and so we (after enabled and being empowered by the Holy Spirit) cooperate, are empowered and guided by God to do good works. He gets the credit. The phrase, "by their fruit you will know them", is an example of some of these works: We bare fruit: love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, self control and against these there is no such law.
We practice these throughout our lives and the Holy Spirit grows them. It's true, we can't just say we have faith, sit down and do nothing. It's like saying you love someone, yet never did anything to help them, care for them ... they would be empty words. We must demonstrate our love. It takes effort to unselfishly extend ourselves towards loving one another, and that translates into helping them grow spiritually, physically, emotionally, financially, whatever they need. Missionaries go off and dig a well for those who need water, they don't just pray for them to have water. Show me your works, but God gets all the credit and in the end He says well done, good and faithful servant for participating in His plan and purpose. He has a perfect plan and so has factored in all our sin, errors, blunders and selfishness. In the end are works are tested with fire, to show what they were worth ... all works done in vain and not done in love towards things that will last eternal will burn. What remains is what God intended, what is holy and perfect, that passes on into eternity.

How much is us and how much is God...?

Is anything required on our part, anything at all...? Or not...?

Does it have to be all God, lest you should get or be able to take some credit for your own salvation, obedience, or "whatever" (anything that is supposed to be a gift or fruit of the Spirit) (from walking in and with and (from our times of) being (one with) the Spirit) (and sowing in and to the Spirit)...

God Bless!

 

[Calvin_1985]

Not sure this belongs in the controversial section, but we'll see how it goes anyway.

Salvation by grace through faith in Christ alone is what excommunicated Luther from Rome and began the Reformation, correct? My question then is, if there are any since then who have adopted again a belief of some kind in salvation by faith plus works, should they still be considered more in line with the Reformation or the likes of Rome again?

Luther didn't start "Salvation by Grace through Faith", It began with God. It's always been given by Fathers Grace through Faith. One example is Israel. They were called out on Faith before they went into the wilderness and being put under the Law after going through the Red Sea.

 

[Albion]

Two thoughts:

1. It might be more correct to say that the Reformation began over the issue of Indulgences. and

2. It is correct that salvation by grace through faith alone is one of the cardinal determiners of whether a church is Protestant as opposed to Catholic.

 

[anna ~ grace]

Negative, I answered that question in my first post. Obeying God does not constitute a "works" based salvation. In fact, that is an impossibility; no one can ever do enough of anything to earn forgiveness. The works referred to in His word are good deeds, feeding the hungry, helping the elderly and such. Obeying something God tells you to do is not a work. I am simply a Christian who believes God's word.
In Him

Ah, ok. Thanks! So, you still believe that we are saved by grace alone through faith alone?

 

[Albion]

About Faith and works: Faith without works is dead.

We here really need to get away from posting that comment every time the subject comes up.

Faith in that verse is characterized as being dead because it is not faith if it does not produce any works. There is no additional claim that works will save in whole or in part, however.

 

[Neogaia777]

We here really need to get away from posting that comment every time the subject comes up.

Faith in that verse is characterized as being dead because it is not faith if it does not produce any works. There is no additional claim that works will save in whole or in part, however.

And should we be judging, or comparing, (ourselves, ect), by or due to, or because of, those works, either in ourselves or others...?

If "we" are doing the works, does it, or do they, mean anything...?

God Bless!

 

[trulytheone]

I saw my father in law, a strict Catholic, enslaved by the thinking that he must do works. Every time someone was coming through a door, unloading groceries, dropped something on the ground, spilled something, was making a dinner, or any other thing that was physical... he would, as a reflex, ask to give them help.. jump up and "do" whatever he thought would benefit his soul... Even when he was close to 80 and had a stroke, he would try to help an able bodied man bring in one bag of groceries.

He was not free.. he was enslaved by this idea that he must do this. He didn't do it as an act of helps.. He did it as an action from which he would gain something..

Do you have any evidence to suggest that he did good works to gain a reward?

 

[Shimokita]

We here really need to get away from posting that comment every time the subject comes up.

Faith in that verse is characterized as being dead because it is not faith if it does not produce any works. There is no additional claim that works will save in whole or in part, however.

So one person says "salvation is faith plus works" and you say "salvation is faith only, but it must be a faith that produces works". The result in either case is that both faith and works are required. The distinction between these two is merely a matter of semantics.

 

[Shimokita]

Do you have any evidence to suggest that he did good works to gain a reward?

Let's keep it real, the whole story is made up.

 

[trulytheone]

The distinction between these two is merely a matter of semantics.

This reminds me about a writer, whose name currently escapes me, who made fun off the controversy concerning the doctrine of Predestination between the Lutherans, Calvinists, Jansenists, and the Roman Catholic Dominicans & Augustinians.

 

[Neogaia777]

So one person says "salvation is faith plus works" and you say "salvation is faith only, but it must be a faith that produces works". The result in either case is that both faith and works are required. The distinction between these two is merely a matter of semantics.

Any of us having our minds on works, or our own works, can easily be deceived, as it is like and open door for the enemy to quietly slip in, oftentimes completely unnoticed...

It can be a trap and a curse...

Having our minds on it, (so as to judge and compare one another with one another by it, ect, ect)... But even just being too mindful of it or them, in general... with ourselves and others, ect...

The Spirit should lead, or prompt you, or move or motivate you or guide and direct you, to do something good, or a good work... or "what is it" really (if it's not, ect)...?

It is not of you being mindful of the work or works, but the Spirit that has you do or does, those good works in and through you, ect... and you following or walking in that... So that it is not you doing it, ect... or "what does it mean", really...? (if it's not, ect)...?

God Bless!

 

[Albion]

So one person says "salvation is faith plus works" and you say "salvation is faith only, but it must be a faith that produces works". The result in either case is that both faith and works are required. The distinction between these two is merely a matter of semantics.

No, it is not. When you say "required," you need to be more precise. "Required" for what end or purpose??

If you address that, it can be seen what the verse is actually saying.

You apparently want it to mean "required" in order for there to be the power to save. But James, in his epistle, makes it more than clear that he is saying instead that faith must produce good works or else the alleged faith is not real faith (which saves).

 

[Shimokita]

No, it is not. When you say "required," you need to be more precise. "Required" for what end or purpose??

If you address that, it can be seen what the verse is actually saying.

You apparently want it to mean "required" in order for there to be the power to save. But James, in his epistle, makes it more than clear that he is saying instead that works are required or else the alleged faith is not real faith (which saves). Real faith produces good works, but they do not save.

Friend, what are you talking about? "Power to save"? The Lord can save whoever he wants, be there faith, works, or neither.

We are saved by grace.