Faith plus works

[Shimokita]

Correction:
The "catholic" church did not exist before the books of the New Testament were written. The church Christ built was not the catholic church, it was His church. His church was very different from what Catholicism was and is. Maybe the catholic church was here when the New Testament was canonized BUT not before the books were written. HUGE, HUGE difference.
In Him

I am very different than who I was 30 years ago, and yet the same person. HUGE HUGE HUGE point to remember my friend.

Now, what church do you go to? Since mine is apostate, I would like to join yours.

 

[Just_a_Christian]

Hmm. So, would you say that you are a non-Catholic Christian who believes that works play a role in our salvation?

Negative, I answered that question in my first post. Obeying God does not constitute a "works" based salvation. In fact, that is an impossibility; no one can ever do enough of anything to earn forgiveness. The works referred to in His word are good deeds, feeding the hungry, helping the elderly and such. Obeying something God tells you to do is not a work. I am simply a Christian who believes God's word.
In Him

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

My tradition teaches me that the plain wording of it is sufficient. And I am certain that if James had meant something other than what he wrote he would have written something else altogether.

The Scripture says, "By grace are you saved by faith, not of ourselves, it is the gift of God" (Ephesians 2:8).
If someone offered you a Rembrandt painting worth hundreds of millions of dollars as a free gift, and you offered one penny for it, then there are problems:
1. It would be an insult to the giver to offer money for something that is given as a gift.
2. It is also an insult to put a value of just one penny on an almost priceless painting, because it would be offering a pittance for something immensely valuable.

So, when God offers salvation as a free gift, for us to try and pay God for it by good works is an insult to Him as the giver.

Also, it devalues the priceless gift of His Son whom He gave as a sacrifice for sin to think we can give our low value good works in exchange for it.

The Scripture says that "The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life" (Romans 6:23).

If we could be justified by any good works that we could do, then Jesus would not have had to go through being forsaken of His Father and experience Him wrath for our sin.

But when we do accept God's free gift and are genuinely converted to Christ, we strive after holiness, not because to get into heaven and keep out of hell, but because we love God and desire to do what would glorify Him.

 

[Just_a_Christian]

I am very different than who I was 30 years ago, and yet the same person. HUGE HUGE HUGE point to remember my friend.

Now, what church do you go to? Since mine is apostate, I would like to join yours.

I'm sorry, I thought I had already replied; trying to do this and watch for tornadoes.
I am a member of Christ's church but it's not a church one can simply petition or apply to in order to become a member.
In Him

 

[HTacianas]

The Scripture says, "By grace are you saved by faith, not of ourselves, it is the gift of God" (Ephesians 2:8).
If someone offered you a Rembrandt painting worth hundreds of millions of dollars as a free gift, and you offered one penny for it, then there are problems:
1. It would be an insult to the giver to offer money for something that is given as a gift.
2. It is also an insult to put a value of just one penny on an almost priceless painting, because it would be offering a pittance for something immensely valuable.

So, when God offers salvation as a free gift, for us to try and pay God for it by good works is an insult to Him as the giver.

Also, it devalues the priceless gift of His Son whom He gave as a sacrifice for sin to think we can give our low value good works in exchange for it.

The Scripture says that "The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life" (Romans 6:23).

If we could be justified by any good works that we could do, then Jesus would not have had to go through being forsaken of His Father and experience Him wrath for our sin.

But when we do accept God's free gift and are genuinely converted to Christ, we strive after holiness, not because to get into heaven and keep out of hell, but because we love God and desire to do what would glorify Him.

The meaning of Ephesians 2:8 is that the Ephesians had entered into the salvation of by solely by God's grace. It was not as a reward for anything they had done. They could not claim credit for it. Ephesians 2 begins with the writer describing to the Ephesians just how bad they had been previously and illustrating how unworthy they were to enter into the salvation of God but that God had bestowed grace on them anyway.

It has nothing to do with their maintaining their salvation, but only how they entered into it.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

The meaning of Ephesians 2:8 is that the Ephesians had entered into the salvation of by solely by God's grace. It was not as a reward for anything they had done. They could not claim credit for it. Ephesians 2 begins with the writer describing to the Ephesians just how bad they had been previously and illustrating how unworthy they were to enter into the salvation of God but that God had bestowed grace on them anyway.

It has nothing to do with their maintaining their salvation, but only how they entered into it.

Trying to maintain salvation by good works is what Paul was amazed at the Galatians, asking who had bewitched them into believing they could start in the Spirit but try and continue in the flesh. If a person receives eternal life at conversion, then it can't be eternal life if they cannot maintain it. This would change the Scripture to read: "The wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life as long as you can maintain it by good works for the rest of your life". But that is not what the Scripture says.

So, do believers do good works and keep God's moral law to remain saved, or do they do them because they are saved and desire to glorify Christ by their works?

If we think that we can maintain our faith through our good works, we might as well say to the Lord, "You don't need to fill us with the Holy Spirit to work holiness in us, because we can go it alone and achieve it ourselves."

 

[HTacianas]

Trying to maintain salvation by good works is what Paul was amazed at the Galatians, asking who had bewitched them into believing they could start in the Spirit but try and continue in the flesh. If a person receives eternal life at conversion, then it can't be eternal life if they cannot maintain it. This would change the Scripture to read: "The wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life as long as you can maintain it by good works for the rest of your life". But that is not what the Scripture says.

So, do believers do good works and keep God's moral law to remain saved, or do they do them because they are saved and desire to glorify Christ by their works?

If we think that we can maintain our faith through our good works, we might as well say to the Lord, "You don't need to fill us with the Holy Spirit to work holiness in us, because we can go it alone and achieve it ourselves."

Forgive me, but you are completely wrong. Paul had nothing to say to the Galatians about doing any sort of good works at all, but only admonished them not to return to the "works of the law", meaning "do not return to the laws of ritual purity" that have never been a part of Christianity. He said to them:

Gal 3:2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

It is plain that the writer addresses their previous keeping of the law and tells how they did not receive the Spirit by the keeping of the law. It has nothing whatever to do with how they are to conduct themselves after having received the Spirit.

 

[Danthemailman]

The Catholic Church does not teach that “salvation is faith plus works” by the way. You can read Trent and the Joint Declaration with the Lutherans to get the actual teaching of the Catholic Church on justification.

ANSWERS | HOME

The Catholic Church Teaches Salvation by Works

Question: You mentioned something about how the Catholic Church teaches that salvation is through works. This is contrary to everything that I’ve discovered about the Catholic Church.

Answer: Many Catholics will not agree with you. They frankly admit that they hope to be saved by living a good life. They seek to obey the commandments, participate in the sacraments, go to church, do penance and give alms, recite prayers and so on, in order to merit salvation. In its official writings, the Catholic Church teaches that faith is important; but it also insists on the necessity of good works to merit eternal life. Please read carefully the following quotations from the Council of Trent on Justification:

Canon 11. If anyone says that men are justified either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ or by the sole remission of sins, excluding grace and charity which is poured into their hearts by the Holy Spirit and inheres in them, or also that the grace which justifies us is only the favour of God, let him be anathema. (see note 1)

Canon 12. If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, let him be anathema.

Canon 24. If anyone says that the justice (righteousness) received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of the increase, let him be anathema.

Canon 30. If anyone says that after the reception of the grace of justification the guilt is so remitted and the debt of eternal punishment so blotted out to every repentant sinner, that no debt of temporal punishment remains to be discharged either in this world or in purgatory before the gates of heaven can be opened, let him be anathema.

Canon 32. If anyone says that the good works of the one justified are in such manner the gifts of God that they are not also the good merits of him justified; or that the one justified by the good works that he performs by the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ (of whom one is a living member), the justified does not truly merit an increase of grace, and eternal life, provided that one dies in the state of grace, the attainment of this eternal life, as well as an increase in glory, let him be anathema.

Official Catholic teaching would not allow the sinner to rely by faith on the mercy of God or to believe that his sins are forgiven for Christ’s sake only. Something more is required. You must keep yourself justified by your own good works. You must merit grace and eternal life by your works. You must pay the debt of sins by your penance and your purgatorial sufferings. That is Rome's salvation by works!

The Catholic Church Teaches Salvation by Works

 

[Danthemailman]

But Sacred Scripture states nowhere that "a man is saved by faith alone", and this flatly contradicts James.

Sacred Scripture states nowhere that "a man is saved by faith and works," and this flatly contradicts Paul.

The Bible clearly states in many passages of scripture that we are saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications." (Luke 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 11:17; 13:39; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8; 2 Timothy 3:15; 1 John 5:13 etc..).

You don't need to add the word "alone" next to "belief/faith" in each of these passages of scripture in order to figure out that the words, "belief/faith" stand alone in connection with receiving eternal life/salvation. Do these many passages of scripture say belief/faith "plus something else?" Plus works? NO. So then it's faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST ALONE.

*Not to be confused with an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" -- barren of works (James 2:14)

So once again, you need to properly harmonize scripture with scripture in order to reach the proper conclusion on doctrine. Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-24).

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.*

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*

 

[Basil the Great]

Which words do you have in mind?

See the post by redleghunter. He quoted the text that I had in mind.

 

[mister rogers]

The Catholic Church does not teach that “salvation is faith plus works” by the way. You can read Trent and the Joint Declaration with the Lutherans to get the actual teaching of the Catholic Church on justification.

So you're saying Rome agrees now that there's nothing anyone can do to earn or secure one's salvation but trust in Christ's finished work?

 

[JacksBratt]

Not sure this belongs in the controversial section, but we'll see how it goes anyway.

Salvation by grace through faith in Christ alone is what excommunicated Luther from Rome and began the Reformation, correct? My question then is, if there are any since then who have adopted again a belief of some kind in salvation by faith plus works, should they still be considered more in line with the Reformation or the likes of Rome again?

This is simple, yet, like most things is complicated by man and man's constant habit of thinking that they can actually contribute anything to their salvation.

How arrogant of us to believe that there is anything we can do that helps accomplish salvation..

Did Christ not say "It is finished" when He was on the cross.

There is nothing I can do that is even close to being sufficient to even help with my salvation. Other than my change in attitude and accepting that I am a sinner and totally need Christ's work for my salvation.

"Works" that is the big question. What good are "works".

I saw my father in law, a strict Catholic, enslaved by the thinking that he must do works. Every time someone was coming through a door, unloading groceries, dropped something on the ground, spilled something, was making a dinner, or any other thing that was physical... he would, as a reflex, ask to give them help.. jump up and "do" whatever he thought would benefit his soul... Even when he was close to 80 and had a stroke, he would try to help an able bodied man bring in one bag of groceries.

He was not free.. he was enslaved by this idea that he must do this. He didn't do it as an act of helps.. He did it as an action from which he would gain something..

Do you see the difference? He did it for reward.. not out of the kindness and service hood of someone that already had the reward.

Look at it this way...

1/ You go to work and do work so you get paid... No work.. no pay. When you have enough in your bank... you retire and live off your savings. The only reason for doing the work is for the reward. The work is for self gain.
(this is the saved by works ideal)

2/ You have 50 million dollars in your bank. You don't have to work. But, you volunteer to help the homeless, weak, sick and less fortunate because of the kindness in your heart. The work is not for self gain.. The work is for benefit for the less fortunate....

This is what is meant by works being the evidence of the salvation... Salvation means we are more like Christ. The faith in Him and our salvation gives us a heart after Christs example.

So, faith in Christ, that has no works, is dead.. there is no evidence... Not that the person isn't saved... Just that it's dead and there is no evidence of Christ in them.. Their light is not shining..

In heaven, they will have eternal life... just no rewards and crowns..

My father in law did what he did for self gain. It was selfish. It was not because he wanted to do it.. it was because he felt that he must do it for his salvation.

He was continually earning his salvation his whole life...

Not doing things for others.... BECAUSE he had salvation and knew he was saved.

 

[Shimokita]

ANSWERS | HOME

The Catholic Church Teaches Salvation by Works

Question: You mentioned something about how the Catholic Church teaches that salvation is through works. This is contrary to everything that I’ve discovered about the Catholic Church.

Answer: Many Catholics will not agree with you. They frankly admit that they hope to be saved by living a good life. They seek to obey the commandments, participate in the sacraments, go to church, do penance and give alms, recite prayers and so on, in order to merit salvation. In its official writings, the Catholic Church teaches that faith is important; but it also insists on the necessity of good works to merit eternal life. Please read carefully the following quotations from the Council of Trent on Justification:

Canon 11. If anyone says that men are justified either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ or by the sole remission of sins, excluding grace and charity which is poured into their hearts by the Holy Spirit and inheres in them, or also that the grace which justifies us is only the favour of God, let him be anathema. (see note 1)

Canon 12. If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, let him be anathema.

Canon 24. If anyone says that the justice (righteousness) received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of the increase, let him be anathema.

Canon 30. If anyone says that after the reception of the grace of justification the guilt is so remitted and the debt of eternal punishment so blotted out to every repentant sinner, that no debt of temporal punishment remains to be discharged either in this world or in purgatory before the gates of heaven can be opened, let him be anathema.

Canon 32. If anyone says that the good works of the one justified are in such manner the gifts of God that they are not also the good merits of him justified; or that the one justified by the good works that he performs by the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ (of whom one is a living member), the justified does not truly merit an increase of grace, and eternal life, provided that one dies in the state of grace, the attainment of this eternal life, as well as an increase in glory, let him be anathema.

Official Catholic teaching would not allow the sinner to rely by faith on the mercy of God or to believe that his sins are forgiven for Christ’s sake only. Something more is required. You must keep yourself justified by your own good works. You must merit grace and eternal life by your works. You must pay the debt of sins by your penance and your purgatorial sufferings. That is Rome's salvation by works!

The Catholic Church Teaches Salvation by Works

There is nothing in the canons cited above that teaches that salvation is faith plus works. The complete versions of Sessions 5 and 6 of Trent are available online for anyone who wants to study them, and learn what the Catholic Church teaches, instead of selective quotations and unverifiable anecdotal statements from an anti-Catholic website.

Now, does the Catholic Church teach that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only (just as Sacred Scripture explicitly states)? Absolutely. But this is not the same thing as saying that "salvation is faith plus works".

 

[mister rogers]

This is simple, yet, like most things is complicated by man and man's constant habit of thinking that they can actually contribute anything to their salvation.

How arrogant of us to believe that there is anything we can do that helps accomplish salvation..

Did Christ not say "It is finished" when He was on the cross.

There is nothing I can do that is even close to being sufficient to even help with my salvation. Other than my change in attitude and accepting that I am a sinner and totally need Christ's work for my salvation.

"Works" that is the big question. What good are "works".

I saw my father in law, a strict Catholic, enslaved by the thinking that he must do works. Every time someone was coming through a door, unloading groceries, dropped something on the ground, spilled something, was making a dinner, or any other thing that was physical... he would, as a reflex, ask to give them help.. jump up and "do" whatever he thought would benefit his soul... Even when he was close to 80 and had a stroke, he would try to help an able bodied man bring in one bag of groceries.

He was not free.. he was enslaved by this idea that he must do this. He didn't do it as an act of helps.. He did it as an action from which he would gain something..

Do you see the difference? He did it for reward.. not out of the kindness and service hood of someone that already had the reward.

Look at it this way...

1/ You go to work and do work so you get paid... No work.. no pay. When you have enough in your bank... you retire and live off your savings. The only reason for doing the work is for the reward. The work is for self gain.
(this is the saved by works ideal)

2/ You have 50 million dollars in your bank. You don't have to work. But, you volunteer to help the homeless, weak, sick and less fortunate because of the kindness in your heart. The work is not for self gain.. The work is for benefit for the less fortunate....

This is what is meant by works being the evidence of the salvation... Salvation means we are more like Christ. The faith in Him and our salvation gives us a heart after Christs example.

So, faith in Christ, that has no works, is dead.. there is no evidence... Not that the person isn't saved... Just that it's dead and there is no evidence of Christ in them.. Their light is not shining..

In heaven, they will have eternal life... just no rewards and crowns..

My father in law did what he did for self gain. It was selfish. It was not because he wanted to do it.. it was because he felt that he must do it for his salvation.

He was continually earning his salvation his whole life...

Not doing things for others.... BECAUSE he had salvation and knew he was saved.

I appreciate this. And your example about getting paid for work is exactly what Paul talks about in Romans 4.

 

[JacksBratt]

I appreciate this. And your example about getting paid for work is exactly what Paul talks about in Romans 4.

Our "pay" is in heaven... not to get us there..There will be rewards for those with salvation... Works is not for salvation. Works is rewards for those saved.

All the good that I do is due to the fact that I am indwelled by the Holy Spirit. I do things when prompted by Him and because He lives in me..

People who are not saved.. their works are in vane. There are good people. Very good people. Good people who do more than some Christians... but... they are still not children of God and their works cannot help them.

 

[Shimokita]

Sacred Scripture states nowhere that "a man is saved by faith and works"

I did not state that, so you are arguing against a straw man.

 

[Danthemailman]

There is nothing in the canons cited above that teaches that salvation is faith plus works. The complete versions of Sessions 5 and 6 of Trent are available online for anyone who wants to study them, and learn what the Catholic Church teaches, instead of selective quotations and unverifiable anecdotal statements from an anti-Catholic website.

Now, does the Catholic Church teach that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only (just as Sacred Scripture explicitly states)? Absolutely. But this is not the same thing as saying that "salvation is faith plus works".

So it's all just a big misunderstanding? Yeah right.

 

[Shimokita]

So you're saying Rome agrees now that there's nothing anyone can do to earn or secure one's salvation but trust in Christ's finished work?

No, this is statement is too broad. A believer must refrain from committing an unrepented mortal sin, for example, just as Scripture indicates. I assume that you are a believer. If you go out tomorrow and start raping and wantonly killing people, and you never repent for it, would you still go to Heaven, in your opinion?

 

[Shimokita]

So it's all just a big misunderstanding? Yeah right.

There is a significant amount of misunderstanding, yes. Especially by certain people who are told that Catholics try to earn their way into heaven, form certain pre-conceived notions abut Catholics, and then go looking at anti-Catholic websites for snippets of information to support their preconceptions, instead of truly attempting to learn and understand the teaching of the Catholic Church.

Friend, I suggest that you read this document, and then study Trent instead of just blindly accepting what an anti-Catholic website has to say about it. The document below is a joint declaration on the doctrine of justification, co-agreed upon by Catholics, Lutherans, Methodists, and the WCRC.

Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification

You can start with this part:

The Common Understanding of Justification

14.The Lutheran churches and the Roman Catholic Church have together listened to the good news proclaimed in Holy Scripture. This common listening, together with the theological conversations of recent years, has led to a shared understanding of justification. This encompasses a consensus in the basic truths; the differing explications in particular statements are compatible with it.

15.In faith we together hold the conviction that justification is the work of the triune God. The Father sent his Son into the world to save sinners. The foundation and presupposition of justification is the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Christ. Justification thus means that Christ himself is our righteousness, in which we share through the Holy Spirit in accord with the will of the Father. Together we confess: By grace alone, in faith in Christ's saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works.[11]

16.All people are called by God to salvation in Christ. Through Christ alone are we justified, when we receive this salvation in faith. Faith is itself God's gift through the Holy Spirit who works through word and sacrament in the community of believers and who, at the same time, leads believers into that renewal of life which God will bring to completion in eternal life.

17.We also share the conviction that the message of justification directs us in a special way towards the heart of the New Testament witness to God's saving action in Christ: it tells us that as sinners our new life is solely due to the forgiving and renewing mercy that God imparts as a gift and we receive in faith, and never can merit in any way.

 

[Unnamed Guy]

Not sure this belongs in the controversial section, but we'll see how it goes anyway.

Salvation by grace through faith in Christ alone is what excommunicated Luther from Rome and began the Reformation, correct? My question then is, if there are any since then who have adopted again a belief of some kind in salvation by faith plus works, should they still be considered more in line with the Reformation or the likes of Rome again?

It depends on who you worship. If you worship God you follow God's word. If you worship this or that church you follow church traditions.