Faith plus works

Sketcher

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"Faith without works is not faith at all" does not logically conclude from a person being motivated by faith in a particular instance.
James was using the instance to describe the rule, and the quote fits the instance.
 
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redleghunter

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Okay, So James, like many of the other apostles, suffered from some mental impairment that caused him to write simple statements having a meaning entirely the opposite of what was written.
It’s called exegesis. A key factor being the context of the passage and not creating a pretext of it.
 
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Basil the Great

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Perhaps on this Palm Sunday, we should look to the words of Jesus to see what we must do to be saved. As I recall, he was even asked that question and he answered it. For some strange reason..... almost no one here ever quotes Jesus when it comes to explaining what we must do to be saved. I wonder why?
 
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HTacianas

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It’s called exegesis. A key factor being the context of the passage and not creating a pretext of it.

I have not created a pretext for anything and I have two thousand years of Christianity agreeing with me.
 
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redleghunter

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Not sure this belongs in the controversial section, but we'll see how it goes anyway.

Salvation by grace through faith in Christ alone is what excommunicated Luther from Rome and began the Reformation, correct? My question then is, if there are any since then who have adopted again a belief of some kind in salvation by faith plus works, should they still be considered more in line with the Reformation or the likes of Rome again?
It boils down to two approaches.

The first being faith and our works are necessary for our salvation.

Vs

Faith alone in Christ alone where a new creation in Christ Jesus does the works of God.

Ephesians 2 is quite clear on this:

Ephesians 2: NASB

8For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance as our way of life. (NASB)

The usual stuff we see on these chat sites degrade to strawmen. For example, Faith alone in Christ alone is presented by some as “well that means you don’t have to do anything.”

Which is promoting a reprobate assertion.
 
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redleghunter

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And when someone disagrees with your conclusion, it's called eisegesis.
Only if they are creating a pretext.

Which is usually showcased by a lack of being able or refusing to conduct an expository examination of Holy Scriptures.

For good examples of expository examination see the posts by @Jonaitis and @Danthemailman
 
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Shimokita

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Perhaps on this Palm Sunday, we should look to the words of Jesus to see what we must do to be saved. As I recall, he was even asked that question and he answered it. For some strange reason..... almost no one here ever quotes Jesus when it comes to explaining what we must do to be saved. I wonder why?
Which words do you have in mind?
 
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Halbhh

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Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to reconcile James and Ephesians without developing a theology that flatly contradicts Scripture (let me give you a tip - the Catholic Church has already done it).
"So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead." Jms 2:7 and done. But I found the 'Catholic' theology on this was simply the normal Christian theology stated in a somewhat different dialect, but saying the same thing, and wonderfully broad and well stated in the catechism section on justification.

Catechism of the Catholic Church - Grace and justification

So it's like we already agree (and did really long before it was realized), and perhaps that is why the Lutheran and Catholic agreement about Justification was reachable (as it was about just understanding, it would seem, being able to comprehend just what the other group's wording actually is intended to mean).

And more broadly throughout Christianity, I think there are a number of instances where seeming doctrinal differences are just illusion based on how words are used, sometimes even widely among mainstream Christian viewpoints. In other words a lot of seeming doctrinal differences are about overemphasizing and not understanding the other side. Not all, but more than a few.
 
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Shimokita

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Only if they are creating a pretext.

Which is usually showcased by a lack of being able or refusing to conduct an expository examination of Holy Scriptures.

For good examples of expository examination see the posts by @Jonaitis and @Danthemailman
I'll stick to Haydock, but thank you.
 
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redleghunter

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Perhaps on this Palm Sunday, we should look to the words of Jesus to see what we must do to be saved. As I recall, he was even asked that question and he answered it. For some strange reason..... almost no one here ever quotes Jesus when it comes to explaining what we must do to be saved. I wonder why?
And apparently the man failed Christ’s examination. He said he lacked something and the man would not give it up. Then when His Apostles asked him how it was possible for anyone to be saved, Jesus said it is impossible for man but not for God.

Matthew 19: NASB

16And someone came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?” 17And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18Then he said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER; YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY; YOU SHALL NOT STEAL; YOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS; 19HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER; and YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.”20The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?” 21Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.” 22But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieving; for he was one who owned much property.

23And Jesus said to His disciples, “Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.24“Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” 25When the disciples heard this,they were very astonished and said, “Then who can be saved?” 26And looking at them Jesus said to them, “With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
 
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(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)

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Amen. A person is saved by grace, through faith, and not of works just as Sacred Scripture states.

But Sacred Scripture states nowhere that "a man is saved by faith alone", and this flatly contradicts James.

Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to reconcile James and Ephesians without developing a theology that flatly contradicts Scripture (let me give you a tip - the Catholic Church has already done it).
Simple, we are saved by grace, through faith to do works. However, "if [faith] is not accompanied by action, is dead." After all, "Even the demons believe [in Jesus] and shudder."

I believe the simple. Everyone who calls themselves "Christian" like to call Jesus their "Savior". But "Savior" is a title that describes something Jesus did, He Saves. However, "Lord" is a title of who Jesus is. Not every person who calls Jesus their "savior" will also quickly confess Jesus to be LORD in their lives. Salvation is a gift of grace that is given to us freely, however, it costs us everything. It means dying to self. If you believe in Jesus but refuse to submit to His Lordship, congratulations!, you are just a little worse than a demon. Because at least demons believe in Jesus and fear HIM. This is really an issue of people believing in "Cheap Grace" or "Easy Believism"

In the story about the Israelites and the Golden Calf, do you recall how the Israelites worshiped the calf. They weren't calling it Ba'al or Moloch. Rather, they were saying, "This is the God who led you out of Egypt!" Their sin was not simply worshiping another god. Their sin was reducing God into a manmade image of their own design. When we refuse to establish Jesus as Lord in our lives. We too are worshiping a "Golden Calf" Jesus of our own design rather than Jesus for who He really is. The Lord of all creation.
 
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Shimokita

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"So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead." Jms 2:7 and done. But I found the 'Catholic' theology on this was simply the normal Christian theology stated in a somewhat different dialect, but saying the same thing, and wonderfully broad and well stated in the catechism section on justification.

Catechism of the Catholic Church - Grace and justification

So it's like we already agree (and did really long before it was realized), and perhaps that is why the Lutheran and Catholic agreement about Justification was reachable (as it was about just understanding, it would seem, being able to comprehend just what the other group's wording actually is intended to mean). I think it's an illusion based on how words are used to think there is much difference between the mainstream Christian viewpoints pretty often. In other words a lot of seeming doctrinal differences are about overemphasizing and not understanding the other side. Not all, but more than a few.
Well yes, in some senses one can say "salvation is by faith alone" if understood properly. I think the pope actually said that a few years back in a speech.

I think there are still some disagreements between Lutheran and Catholic understandings about justification at a more fundamental level, but there is a lot of agreement, as noted in the joint declaration.
 
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Shimokita

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No need. Are you denying that the instance was used to teach the rule?
Well that depends. In your question, please clarify (i) "the instance" and (ii) "the rule".

You have not really set forth your argument in a clear manner, and I am not 100% sure what your argument is, to be frank.
 
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Halbhh

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Well yes, in some senses one can say "salvation is by faith alone" if understood properly. I think the pope actually said that a few years back in a speech.

I think there are still some disagreements between Lutheran and Catholic understandings about justification at a more fundamental level, but there is a lot of agreement, as noted in the joint declaration.
That declaration has a fair amount of content, though it's been a while since I read in it.

Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification

and it's in a nicely beige hue good for getting sleepy. Late here. Good night.
 
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redleghunter

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I have not created a pretext for anything and I have two thousand years of Christianity agreeing with me.
If that be the case then argue from Scriptures and not pitting verses against each other thus a pretext.
 
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