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Faith or law ? Why did Israel think Jesus was a sinner ?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by prophecy_uk, Oct 23, 2021.

  1. prophecy_uk

    prophecy_uk Well-Known Member

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    Faith or law ? Why did Israel think Jesus was a sinner ?




    Jesus clearly had a task to constantly correct Israel, as they were given the law, so why would they want to give it up ? It is like asking alcoholics to give up their precious drink, and all they live by, to now be reset to be nothing, or like asking a king or ruler, to now sit lowly, and see they are replaced by the true ruler and King, and they are now in fact the lowest, as the publicans go into the Kingdom of God before them.

    Part of that correction was the sabbath, Jesus again tells the people of Israel who were given the law, how Jesus standing before them, is the Lord of the sabbath.

    Israel did not accept that Jesus is the Lord of the sabbath, as they concluded that that man was not even of God, because He kept not their sabbath, and even the ones questioning announced Jesus as a sinner. ( not keeping their law)...





    Matthew 21:31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

    Mark 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
    28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.


    John 9:16 Therefore said some of the Pharisees, This man is not of God, because he keepeth not the sabbath day. Others said, How can a man that is a sinner do such miracles? And there was a division among them.








    The teaching of the Epistles, answers all of Israels objections. First though, we know, that Israel will not hand over the law they are given, and be happy to know they are now no greater than anyone else, they had pride to believe they were the people chosen above all other, it's not easy to break pride.


    This is the way anyway, charity edifies and never fails, and what was perfect had come, ( the law made nothing perfect was what needed to be known by Israel)

    When a child, God called Israel out of Egypt ( out of bondage) and the child has to be a man, to come away from bondage to the glorious liberty of God.

    When then, that child, as when God freed them out of Egypt and it's bondage, then as a man the requirement from God is to put away childish things. ( this is why God says it, " when Israel was a child") and to know God even as we are known by Him and faith hope and charity abides, and the greatest if charity..





    1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
    9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
    10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
    11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
    12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
    13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

    Hosea 11:1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

    Deuteronomy 8:14 Then thine heart be lifted up, and thou forget the Lord thy God, which brought thee forth out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage;

    Hebrews 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.






    Then do we feel the jealousy and the pride that rests in Israel even today, how their inheritance was being taken away by Christ, when Christ was sharing the inheritance with all of the world?

    Again, this is why it is summed up for us in the Epistles, how Israel has nothing of God through the law, but all was by promise, which is by faith.

    The part the law served is also described, it had its part until the seed should come ( of the promise to Abraham)

    The law then could not give life, righteousness is not by the law.

    All are concluded under sin by the law, that is why it was added because of the transgressions of all. That is why Isaiah 53, details how Messiah was to be cut off out of the land of the living for the transgression of His people. Then the promise of faith by Jesus Christ can be upon all them that believe.

    Then Israel was kept under the law and shut up, away from faith.

    The law is what Israel is yet under, as faith is not revealed when there is that law, ( it is a jealous, prideful trap) as all are now justified by faith, and putting on Christ is to be grown up and no longer under instructions from what denies the death and rising of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life..





    Galatians 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
    19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
    20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
    21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
    22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
    23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
    24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
    25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
    26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
    27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

    Isaiah 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.





    There is one commandment then, it is charity out of a pure heart. Vain teaching of the law, edifies nothing in charity, as sin is the law. Righteousness is belief in the risen Lord, delivered for our offences in the law, risen for our glory to believe in His righteousness and same faith in us.


    The law is not for a righteous man, so when they say we must keep the law, they have declared what sort of men they are...





    1 Timothy 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
    6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
    7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
    8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
    9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
    10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
    11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
     
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  2. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    They thought He broke the Sabbath.
     
  3. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    Legalists and backsliders all have this problem about others following their rules.
     
  4. Fervent

    Fervent Well-Known Member

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    Israel did not think Jesus a sinner, the religious authorities claimed he was. Yet if we look at what He was accused of no one even accused Him of breaking the law as written. What He was accused of breaking was the Halakah not the Torah. Not the law, but the "hedge around the law."
     
  5. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    The "religious authorities" did not:

    16 And the soldiers led Him away inside the palace (that is, the Praetorium). And they call together the whole [Roman] cohort. 17 And they dress Him in a purple cloak. And having woven a crown made-of-thorns, they set it on Him. 18 And they began to greet Him, “Hail, King of the Jews!” 19 And they were striking His head with a staff, and spitting-on Him. And while putting-down their knees, they were paying-homage to Him. 20 And when they mocked Him, they stripped the purple cloak off Him and put His garments on Him. And they lead Him out in order that they might crucify Him.
     
  6. Fervent

    Fervent Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure what you're trying to prove here, but if you've gotten to that part of Mark 15 you would have had to read:
    But the chief priests stirred up the crowd to have him release for them Barabbas instead. 12 And Pilate again said to them, “Then what shall I do with the man you call the King of the Jews?” 13 And they cried out again, “Crucify him.” 14 And Pilate said to them, “Why? What evil has he done?” But they shouted all the more, “Crucify him.” 15 So Pilate, wishing to satisfy the crowd, released for them Barabbas, and having scourged Jesus, he delivered him to be crucified.

    So yeah, it was the religious authorities.
     
  7. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    I'm not fond of them, but it was not them in your passage any different from the crowd.
     
  8. Fervent

    Fervent Well-Known Member

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    Then who are the "chief priests" that stirred up the crowd?
     
  9. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    They were part of the crowd.
     
  10. Fervent

    Fervent Well-Known Member

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    The verse makes a distinction between them and the crowd, and while I didn't include it the verse before states that they were the ones who delivered Jesus over to be crucified.
     
  11. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    No matter if they were separate or not. You must be the defense attorney.
     
  12. Fervent

    Fervent Well-Known Member

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    Things that are separate are not the same.
     
  13. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    It's called "complicity" in law and scripture.

    Complicity is the participation in a completed criminal act of an accomplice, a partner in the crime who aids or encourages other perpetrators of that crime, and who shared with them an intent to act to complete the crime. Wikipedia
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2021
  14. Fervent

    Fervent Well-Known Member

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    The chief priests were the impetus, not complicit. They were the ones who pronounced the sentence of death and handed Jesus over to the Romans to carry out the act, and they are distinct from the crowd and moved the crowd to demand Barabbas instead of Christ.
     
  15. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    Obedience of the law justifies no one,
    and yet the justified will obey the law.
    The law is a reflection of what love would do;
    love fulfills what the law commands.
    Law abiders don’t need the law,
    even though the law is holy, right, spiritual, and good.
     
  16. prophecy_uk

    prophecy_uk Well-Known Member

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    The Jews being Israel, murmured at the sayings of Jesus, (unable to understand and then therefore believe in the word of Jesus)

    The Jews sought to kill Jesus ( because of His word having no place in them and being then offensive to them)

    Neither did the brothers of Jesus believe in Him and told Him to go to the Jews who sought to kill Him..





    John 6:41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.

    John 7:1 After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him.
    2 Now the Jew's feast of tabernacles was at hand.
    3 His brethren therefore said unto him, Depart hence, and go into Judaea, that thy disciples also may see the works that thou doest.
    4 For there is no man that doeth any thing in secret, and he himself seeketh to be known openly. If thou do these things, shew thyself to the world.
    5 For neither did his brethren believe in him.



    The Jews and people of Israel at the feast murmured, and some said Jesus was good, others said Jesus was a deceiver, and for fear of the Jews, no man spoke openly of Christ..



    John 7:11 Then the Jews sought him at the feast, and said, Where is he?
    12 And there was much murmuring among the people concerning him: for some said, He is a good man: others said, Nay; but he deceiveth the people.
    13 Howbeit no man spake openly of him for fear of the Jews.





    Again, in front of the Jews ( in front of all Israel)the people denied anyone wanted to kill Jesus, and accused him of having a devil ( of being mad and a sinner) Jesus answers how even though He has caused offence to them, to heal on their sabbath day, they should judge by righteousness, and not by appearance.


    Many of the people believed on Him, and the Pharisees sent officers to take Jesus...





    John 7:19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?
    20 The people answered and said, Thou hast a devil: who goeth about to kill thee?
    21 Jesus answered and said unto them, I have done one work, and ye all marvel.
    22 Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers;) and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man.
    23 If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?
    24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

    John 7:31 And many of the people believed on him, and said, When Christ cometh, will he do more miracles than these which this man hath done?
    32 The Pharisees heard that the people murmured such things concerning him; and the Pharisees and the chief priests sent officers to take him.




    Jesus again speaking to all the people of the Jews ( all Israel) even accuse Jesus of doing sin to kill Himself.

    Jesus answers them, it is because they are not from above, and are not of Heaven.

    Then Jesus tells the people hearing, of Israel, how they are of their father the devil, and the Jews answered and said that Jesus is a Samaritan and has a devil ( to be a sinner)

    The Jews reaffirm they know Jesus has a devil, but Jesus answers them how He keeps the Fathers sayings ( the same as they keep their father, the devil sayings of evil)...





    John 8:21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.
    22 Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come.
    23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
    24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

    John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
    45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
    46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
    47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
    48 Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?

    John 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
    52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.
    53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
    54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
    55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.





    The Pharisees offended in Jesus not keeping the sabbath, show the confusion of Israel, how they viewed Jesus as a sinner, and there was a division among the Pharisees ( among the Jews of Israel).....





    John 9:16 Therefore said some of the Pharisees, This man is not of God, because he keepeth not the sabbath day. Others said, How can a man that is a sinner do such miracles? And there was a division among them.




    Again there was a division among the Jews for the sayings of Jesus.

    Many of them ( of the Jews/ of Israel) said Jesus was mad and had a devil ( to be a sinner)

    The Jews came to Jesus and asked Him to tell them plainly, and Jesus told them plainly, they are not His sheep ( so the only possible conclusion Israel could have was disbelief in Christ and hating Him without a cause..



    John 10:19 There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings.
    20 And many of them said, He hath a devil, and is mad; why hear ye him?
    21 Others said, These are not the words of him that hath a devil. Can a devil open the eyes of the blind?
    22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.
    23 And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch.
    24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
    25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
    26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.




    Jesus chooses His sheep out of the world, and then the world hates the disciples of Jesus, the same as the world hated Jesus ( Israel hated Jesus)

    Jesus says why they hated Him, because of what he spoke to them, so that they ( Israel) no longer had a cloak for their sin.

    Jesus reveals the work he did which no other man did, gave Israel sin, because disbelief in what Jesus did in front of Israel, means they shall die in their sins...





    John 15:21 But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.
    22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloak for their sin.
    23 He that hateth me hateth my Father also.
    24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.
    25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2021
  17. prophecy_uk

    prophecy_uk Well-Known Member

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    The law was not honourable, it is simple to know that, to hate your enemy is not honourable..


    Matthew 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
    44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
    45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.






    If anyone observes these sayings of Jesus, they are being honourable, their righteousness has to exceed that of the Pharisees, as it is following in, and believing in the righteousness they hear ( hear these sayings of Jesus) as it is the righteousness of Heaven and of Christ...




    Matthew 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
    21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
    22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.





    Jesus is the word of God, all of it, and what that led us to was to do all for others, which the law never taught that, otherwise the law would not have been corrected.

    Now the way is straight ( crooked devils and crooked man cant enter in) and many go on the wide easy way, ( of keeping law and breaking the same) because the way to life is narrow and few find that way even though it is told and shown in all the world until now..



    Matthew 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
    13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
    14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.





    Many work iniquity, ( by faith in the law) and somehow don';t hear these sayings of Jesus, to be founded upon a rock to not fall in the time of judgement..


    Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
    23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
    24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
    25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
     
  18. prophecy_uk

    prophecy_uk Well-Known Member

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    The law is not of faith, and nothing in the law could bring life, this is why Christ had to die, as righteousness is not in any of the law, but righteousness is in believing in Christ rising from the dead.

    The heart believes in the righteousness of Christ ( not believing in the law as it is not righteous) and what the law lacked ( in love, kindness and mercy for all) the Savior fulfilled and exampled on earth, by the laying of His life down which at the same moment took the law away.

    The law was even a curse, if anyone wants to be under a curse, the Jews and Christian sects that follow law, are an example of that.

    The promise of the Spirit is through faith, as that was what was missing from the law ( the Spirit which is love and kindness of the Lord) and now by faith in Christ kindness lives in us..







    Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

    Galatians 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
    22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.


    Galatians 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
    12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
    13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
    14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.


    Romans 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
    6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)
    7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
    8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
    9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
    10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
     
  19. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    I don’t know what it means to say the law is not honorable; the law is simply the will of God, that which Jesus “would do”, that which love “looks like”, love being the motivation behind everything that Jesus did and commanded. The law is simply totally worthless for the purpose of accomplishing righteousness in us. It can only tell us that we’re unrighteousness; convicting us of sin as we fail to live up to its righteous standard.

    Love is the fulfillment of the law, love makes the heart pure, love is the righteousness that, easily, exceeds that of the Pharisees and teachers of the law. Love is a work of God in us, of putting His law in our minds and writing it on our hearts, it’s His own image that we’re to be transformed into. It’s both a gift, and our choice, daily. To the extent that we love, obedience comes without ever needing to even hear the law.
     
  20. prophecy_uk

    prophecy_uk Well-Known Member

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    Isaiah 42:21 The Lord is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.
     
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