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Faith or law ? Why did Israel think Jesus was a sinner ?

Discussion in 'Sabbath and The Law' started by prophecy_uk, Oct 23, 2021.

  1. prophecy_uk

    prophecy_uk Well-Known Member

    Faith or law ? Why did Israel think Jesus was a sinner ?

    Jesus clearly had a task to constantly correct Israel, as they were given the law, so why would they want to give it up ? It is like asking alcoholics to give up their precious drink, and all they live by, to now be reset to be nothing, or like asking a king or ruler, to now sit lowly, and see they are replaced by the true ruler and King, and they are now in fact the lowest, as the publicans go into the Kingdom of God before them.

    Part of that correction was the sabbath, Jesus again tells the people of Israel who were given the law, how Jesus standing before them, is the Lord of the sabbath.

    Israel did not accept that Jesus is the Lord of the sabbath, as they concluded that that man was not even of God, because He kept not their sabbath, and even the ones questioning announced Jesus as a sinner. ( not keeping their law)...

    Matthew 21:31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

    Mark 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
    28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

    John 9:16 Therefore said some of the Pharisees, This man is not of God, because he keepeth not the sabbath day. Others said, How can a man that is a sinner do such miracles? And there was a division among them.

    The teaching of the Epistles, answers all of Israels objections. First though, we know, that Israel will not hand over the law they are given, and be happy to know they are now no greater than anyone else, they had pride to believe they were the people chosen above all other, it's not easy to break pride.

    This is the way anyway, charity edifies and never fails, and what was perfect had come, ( the law made nothing perfect was what needed to be known by Israel)

    When a child, God called Israel out of Egypt ( out of bondage) and the child has to be a man, to come away from bondage to the glorious liberty of God.

    When then, that child, as when God freed them out of Egypt and it's bondage, then as a man the requirement from God is to put away childish things. ( this is why God says it, " when Israel was a child") and to know God even as we are known by Him and faith hope and charity abides, and the greatest if charity..

    1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
    9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
    10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
    11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
    12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
    13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

    Hosea 11:1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

    Deuteronomy 8:14 Then thine heart be lifted up, and thou forget the Lord thy God, which brought thee forth out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage;

    Hebrews 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

    Then do we feel the jealousy and the pride that rests in Israel even today, how their inheritance was being taken away by Christ, when Christ was sharing the inheritance with all of the world?

    Again, this is why it is summed up for us in the Epistles, how Israel has nothing of God through the law, but all was by promise, which is by faith.

    The part the law served is also described, it had its part until the seed should come ( of the promise to Abraham)

    The law then could not give life, righteousness is not by the law.

    All are concluded under sin by the law, that is why it was added because of the transgressions of all. That is why Isaiah 53, details how Messiah was to be cut off out of the land of the living for the transgression of His people. Then the promise of faith by Jesus Christ can be upon all them that believe.

    Then Israel was kept under the law and shut up, away from faith.

    The law is what Israel is yet under, as faith is not revealed when there is that law, ( it is a jealous, prideful trap) as all are now justified by faith, and putting on Christ is to be grown up and no longer under instructions from what denies the death and rising of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life..

    Galatians 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
    19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
    20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
    21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
    22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
    23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
    24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
    25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
    26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
    27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

    Isaiah 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

    There is one commandment then, it is charity out of a pure heart. Vain teaching of the law, edifies nothing in charity, as sin is the law. Righteousness is belief in the risen Lord, delivered for our offences in the law, risen for our glory to believe in His righteousness and same faith in us.

    The law is not for a righteous man, so when they say we must keep the law, they have declared what sort of men they are...

    1 Timothy 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
    6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
    7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
    8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
    9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
    10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
    11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
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  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

    United States
    "Israel" never said any such thing. The unsaved enemies of Christ did though. They were pretty good at false accusation.

    Even in the NT -- "SIN IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 and in that context John writes "sin NOT" 1 John 2:1


    "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
    "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God" Rev 14:12

    The commandments of God include "the TEN" known to Jeremiah and his readers at the time of writing the NEW Covenant Jer 31:31-34 and having "'honor your father and mother' as the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2

    =========== And since this is "Sabbath and the Law" forum --

    "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to bow down" Is 66:23

    Lev 23:3 the 7th day Sabbath is a day of "Holy Convocation"
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  3. HARK!

    HARK! שמע Staff Member Purple Team - Moderator Supporter

    United States
    This appears to be a false dichotomy.

    How exactly does one exhibit faithfulness to our heavenly father; while ignoring his instructions (Torah, Law)?

    In your understanding, is disregard for the headship the sign of a faithful bride?
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  4. prophecy_uk

    prophecy_uk Well-Known Member


    Israel, the people, the Jews, delivered Jesus up to death, because of offences to their law keeping.

    This shows immediately, their law keeping is killing.

    That is why part of that law, was to kill the adulterer and the adulteress.

    This explains why Israel believed Jesus was a sinner, as they did not believe they were the sinners, in hatred.

    God is love, God came to lay His life down, that was the same trap for those same sinners.

    If Israel did not think Jesus was a sinner, and breaker of their laws and ways of life, they would not have killed Him.

    If you have further questions, go ahead and question ( but I hold the same view you declared of me, which is, how Torah law and faithfulness, are false in assumption, that one can observe and fulfil both)

    The law is not of faith, and killing ( torah law) is ended..

    Leviticus 20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

    John 8:4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
    5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
    6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
    7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
    8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
    9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
  5. prophecy_uk

    prophecy_uk Well-Known Member

    This is the sabbath section, but to have yourselves protected from a different viewpoint, shows exactly what in your responses.

    That is the point of the thread, to address that belief, that like Israel were free to murder Christ, they were unaware of this...

    2 Corinthians 13:4 For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you.

    Acts 3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.
    14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
    15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.
    16 And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.
    17 And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers.
    18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.

    Matthew 23;33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
    34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
    35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
    36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
    37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
    38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
    39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

    Acts 13:41 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.
    42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
    43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
    44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
    45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.
    46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

    1 Thessalonians 2:14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:
    15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:
    16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.