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Caedmon

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Originally posted by Andrew
Lemme ask you louis, if Adam and Eve did not sin, do you think they would have grown old, fallen sick from time to time and died? Or put another way, do you think their bodies (b4 they sinned) wld be susceptible to illness and the ageing process?

if u say yes, then it wld mean God created something kind of faulty.

Actually, death has always been a part of biology. If something lives, it will die. Furthermore, if humanity wasn't capable of death, eventually there would be no room left on the Earth. Say you have Adam and Eve, and they're not growing older or getting sick or dying. Then I'd say something was faulty. What is the purpose of physical life without death? Without a finite existence, there is no reason for a human to act righteously.
 
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Andrew

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humblejoe,

If death was God's enemy (and ours), why would God create Adam and program his body to die someday?

Its funny you'd call God's creation of man in his image, "faulty", if it was good -- ie sickness and death was not incorporated into it.

again, you'd have to prove it with scripture that Adam and Eve were created faulty -- with susceptibility to sickness and death. you'd also have ot prove with scripture that diseases and viruses existed in the Garden of Eden before the fall.

BTW: I had showed you how Jesus had to be the spotless lamb of God without sickness from Malachi. I wonder if you saw those earlier posts. They prove beyond a shadow of doubt that the Lamb of God could not have been sick from time to time like all other humans. And as Louis cld not provide scripture proof that Jesus was sick occassionally, then perhaps you can. :)
 
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Caedmon

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Originally posted by Andrew
Its funny you'd call God's creation of man in his image, "faulty", if it was good -- ie sickness and death was not incorporated into it.

I believe the phrase "created in God's image" refers to spiritual likeness, in as much as man as an immortal component, a soul.

again, you'd have to prove it with scripture that Adam and Eve were created faulty -- with susceptibility to sickness and death. you'd also have ot prove with scripture that diseases and viruses existed in the Garden of Eden before the fall.

Considering that I view Genesis 1-11 as a mythic sacred narrative, thus being ahistorical and ascientific, it would be difficult for me to provide a biological/virological analysis of the Garden of Eden, based on the text.

BTW: I had showed you how Jesus had to be the spotless lamb of God without sickness from Malachi. I wonder if you saw those earlier posts. They prove beyond a shadow of doubt that the Lamb of God could not have been sick from time to time like all other humans. And as Louis cld not provide scripture proof that Jesus was sick occassionally, then perhaps you can. :)

I can't find evidence for what his favorite food or color were either, or what events took place during his teenage years. But that doesn't mean He didn't have those. :)
 
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Andrew

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Oh I see, so rather than face the facts of scripture you now give the excuse that the Genesis account in creation to be just some mythical fable. Hmmm...where do you draw the line then?... perhaps the virgin birth and resurrection are myths too, since they are "ascientific". :(

quote: "I can't find evidence for what his favorite food or color were either, or what events took place during his teenage years. But that doesn't mean He didn't have those."

huh? pls answer the question. Did you even read the posts? :(
 
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SpiritPsalmist

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Originally posted by LouisBooth
Yup, you got it mostly right from what I see though. Its okay ;) No, you and drew have shown me that if you're sick then you're sinful, which is not the case at all.

Ya see! ya disagree no matter what.

Neither Andrew or I teach what you keep accusing us of.  We deny, you accuse.  You have it set in your mind, and you only hear yourself.

If a man is sexually promiscuous, and he gets aids, did he get that disease because he sinned?  Yes!

If that same man takes the disease home to his faithful wife, did she sin?  No!

Now suppose, she becomes pregnant and gives birth to a child with aids, did the child sin?  No!

However, the disease is present because of someones sin.  Not the faithful wife and not the child, but the husband and dad.

OK, lets try another, I have a friend who was born with a disease that keeps him from growing.  His particular problem was due to his mother taking a prescribed drug given her by her doctor.  No one knew the drug caused deformities.  Did my friend sin? No.  Did his mother sin? No.  Did the doctor sin? No.  But out of ignorance the doctor gave the medication, and the mother out of trust took it.

Suppose someone is born deformed and there is no idea by man why it happened.  Did the person deformed sin?  No.  Did the parents sin?  No

God did not give me the symtoms of the flu that I'm fighting with. I've been working 11 - 12 hr days, 6 days a week, not getting enough rest and not eating right.   That's why I have those symptoms.  Is it sin not to take care of yourself? Yes! I don't get depressed over it though.  I ask God to show me more balance so this does not happen again, and go on with my life.

To glorify God and live for Him in any of this is good.  But to think that God did it is not.  THAT IS THE POINT WE ARE MAKING!  God does not inflict His children with disease and broken bones.  Yes, we can learn some good lessons while we are recuperating from things but GOD DID NOT DO IT TO US!

If God is the one who did it then it is a sin to go to the doctor to get rid of it.  What I hear you saying is "God gave you the gift of aids and now you are going to the doctor so he can take that gift away.

Your saying that Jesus has to experince sickness in order to know what we are going through.  So, does that mean that He also had a sexually transmitted disease so He could understand what that person is going through?  If your gonna apply it to one situation you have to apply it to all. 

I do believe that satan is the thief, the destroyer, and the lyer.  None of those can be applied to God.  Satan is the one who causes deformaties. 

Now, someone may become deformed due to their poor judgement.  Such as diving head first into shallow water.  God did not break their neck and cause them to be paraplegic.  The person themself did it.  Was it sin to dive into shallow water? No.  Was it ignorant?  Yes!

I believe Louis that God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes on Him will be saved.  For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world but that the world through Him would be saved.

I believe we are saved from hell in all it's forms.  Sickness is from hell and Jesus died so that we would not have to experience it in any form.  As humans we do, but we don't have to.

I'm thankful I've grown up in the type of church I did.  I see people healed all the time.  People I know.  I've been healed myself, many times.  I'd hate to go somewhere, where I was told that I just had to learn to live with it.  That God gave it to me as a gift. . . what rot! :(


 
 
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Caedmon

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Originally posted by Andrew
Oh I see, so rather than face the facts of scripture you now give the excuse that the Genesis account in creation to be just some mythical fable. Hmmm...where do you draw the line then?... perhaps the virgin birth and resurrection are myths too, since they are "ascientific". :(

Do you not understand what sacred narrative is? Do you not understand what "ascientific" means? Evidently, you don't. Genesis 1-11 is not a science book. For me to derive any scientific data, biological or otherwise, from it is simply ridiculous. I draw the line at the end of Genesis chapter 11, because at that point, it begins to lose it's classification of mythic genre.

quote: "I can't find evidence for what his favorite food or color were either, or what events took place during his teenage years. But that doesn't mean He didn't have those."

huh? pls answer the question. Did you even read the posts? :(

In other words, the Bible doesn't give specific, recorded examples of Christ's maladies, but that doesn't mean He didn't have any. I have a question for you: Do you think Jesus had teenage acne?
 
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SpiritPsalmist

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Originally posted by humblejoe


Do you not understand what sacred narrative is? Do you not understand what "ascientific" means? Evidently, you don't. Genesis 1-11 is not a science book. For me to derive any scientific data, biological or otherwise, from it is simply ridiculous. I draw the line at the end of Genesis chapter 11, because at that point, it begins to lose it's classification of mythic genre.



In other words, the Bible doesn't give specific, recorded examples of Christ's maladies, but that doesn't mean He didn't have any. I have a question for you: Do you think Jesus had teenage acne?

 

I'm sorry Joe, but you lost me on this one too. Sacred narrative? Ascientific?  :scratch:

The Word says that He was tempted in all ways.  So I believe just that.  He showed us how to overcome every area of temptation. 

If his flesh tried to rebell with manifestation of acne then He overcame it with the Word of His Father.  He demonstrated that for us when He was led by the Spirit into the wilderness and tempted by Satan. 

NO I am not saying it is a sin to have acne. But to assume that I just have to put up with it because it's a normal part of being a teenager is a lie that society and the church has opted for.  And I apply that to every defect, including the manifestation of the flu that's trying to come against my body right now. 

According to the Word of God, I am healed by the stripes of Jesus.  Yes, my throat hurts, Yes, I feel lousy, but Jesus is still my healer, no matter what I feel.  I claim His healing, not what my body feels. 

Now, unfortionately, I'm not as good at it yet as He was :rolleyes: , but I still continue to speak what His Word says.  It's all a learning process.  Some of us learn it quicker than others.  I don't think I've failed because of that.  But I will endure to the end.  I will continue to stand upon His Word.  No matter what happens to me.

So, nuff said, I'm tired and I'm going home to rest. :wave:

 
 
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LouisBooth

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"Lemme ask you louis, if Adam and Eve did not sin, do you think they would have grown old, fallen sick from time to time and died? Or put another way, do you think their bodies (b4 they sinned) wld be susceptible to illness and the ageing process?"

Whole different story. sin had not entered the world. Christ was not sinful, but he had to live in a sinfilled world, thus he got sick.
 
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LouisBooth

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"Neither Andrew or I teach what you keep accusing us of"

I've used your quotes to show the contrary. If you dont' think being sick equates to being sinful, then why cant' Christ be sick?

"What I hear you saying is "God gave you the gift of aids and now you are going to the doctor so he can take that gift away. "

Then you hear wrong. Did I say God gives ALL sickness? No I didn't. You're overgeneralizing my position by 1. not paying attention to what I say and 2. taking my quotes out of context to prove this point. Again, I simply ask you, why can't Christ have gotten sick if it doesn't mean you're sinful? Hmmm?

"Your saying that Jesus has to experince sickness in order to know what we are going through. So, does that mean that He also had a sexually transmitted disease so He could understand what that person is going through? If your gonna apply it to one situation you have to apply it to all. "

No, because sickness usually has the same energy draining problems and I dont' have to break God's law to get a cold now do I? Again, you're bringing up something totally different.

"Satan is the one who causes deformaties. "

You think so huh? Now satan has the power of creation before birth?

"Sickness is from hell and Jesus died so that we would not have to experience it in any form. As humans we do, but we don't have to."

Here inlies your problem and our disagreement. sickness is something we brought on ourselves, its not from hell. God uses sickness sometimes to get us to focus on him. I have seen that done. I have seen people become better christians because and only because of the sickness they have. Was that a blessing to them? yes. Why? Because we are to store treasures up in heaven, not here. It is more important to God that you become spiritually strong then physically healthy. he is more concerned with something that will live forever (your spirit) the something that will rot away and have to be remade (your body).
 
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Andrew

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humblejoe: "I have a question for you: Do you think Jesus had teenage acne?"

NO! because he was the spotless perfect Lamb of God who did not inherit the fallen nature of Adam -- virgin birth!

Hey, you might as well ask: "Did Jesus read inappropriate content mags and touch when his hormones where raging in his teenage years?" Where do you draw the line my friend? It is such hypothetical thinking that has led some to teach Jesus had sex with Mary, was gay etc...

B4 Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirt at his baptism -- b4 he even performed miracles -- God opened the heavens and declared "This is my beloved Son in whom I'm well pleased!" God was pleased with his Son from the time he was born. Jesus was perfect all the way -- whether spiritual or physical. If you want to degrade him by saying he had acne, was sick like the rest of us etc, then I seriously wonder what spirit you are of!

And till now, neither you not Luois have provided scripture to say that Jesus was sick. You gotta do better than just dream up hypothetical examples.

I'll tell you something, when you come to God's presence, you stand only by one thing -- Jesus as your sin bearer and sacrifice. God accepts you only because of the Lamb of God. IOW you bring Jesus as your Lamb sacrifice when you come to God. And if you are going to bring a sick lamb, if that's your picture of Jesus, lemme tell you, your prayers will not be heard because you have defiled the Son of God!
 
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Caedmon

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Originally posted by Andrew
Hey, you might as well ask: "Did Jesus read inappropriate content mags and touch when his hormones where raging in his teenage years?" Where do you draw the line my friend? It is such hypothetical thinking that has led some to teach Jesus had sex with Mary, was gay etc...

WHAT... THE... HECK... :eek:

Ok, after calming down a bit, I'll respond.

*"I'm a kitty, you're a kitty. I'm a kitty, you're a kitty."*

Ok... First of all, I'll state that your analogy is very skewed. Acne does not equal sin. Secondly, I'm utterly shocked that you would even resort to such tactics, suggesting such crude images, but I'll take it in salty stride.

I simply cannot see how a very common biological teenage malady can be equated with being sinful, or lacking faith, righteousness and/or purity, or somehow come from "inside" us. This does not make sense to me at all. :scratch:
 
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SpiritPsalmist

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Originally posted by humblejoe


WHAT... THE... HECK... :eek:

Ok, after calming down a bit, I'll respond.

*"I'm a kitty, you're a kitty. I'm a kitty, you're a kitty."*

Ok... First of all, I'll state that your analogy is very skewed. Acne does not equal sin. Secondly, I'm utterly shocked that you would even resort to such tactics, suggesting such crude images, but I'll take it in salty stride.

I simply cannot see how a very common biological teenage malady can be equated with being sinful, or lacking faith, righteousness and/or purity, or somehow come from "inside" us. This does not make sense to me at all. :scratch:

Humblejoe,

I was just as horrified when I read your and Louis opinion that Christ suffered with illness while on this earth.  To me it was just as shocking and crude as above mentioned statements.

If Jesus was deficient in one area then how can we know for sure what other areas He was not deficient in?  I personally believe, that man was created perfect.  I don't believe that Cain and Abel suffered with acne.  There were no malady's until the fall.

When Jesus left heaven to come down to earth He laid aside His operating as God.  He came in the flesh, and showed us how to opearte, full of the Holy Spirit, in the flesh.  That is why He had to leave, so the Comforter could come.  So we could be filled with the Holy Spirit and walk as Jesus walked. In purity, holiness, and power.

If He had even "one" malady that would disqualify Him from being the perfect lamb, without spot or wrinkle.  It would make Him defective. 

I know that you don't see it that way, and neither does the world who does not know Him.  But while we live in this world we are not of it.  We have the same ability He did.  He walked in purity, holiness, wholeness and power. . .and so can we.

If you don't want to believe that, that's your choice.  But to malign (that's what I felt it was) the work of my Saviour was just as vulger to me.  :bow:

 
 
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SnuP

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Accually to say that Jesus had acne is to say that Jesus was under the cures of sin and death.  All disease is introduced to the human race as a result of sin.  Jesus not being subject to the law of sin and death, faced death without sin.  Most dematologist acknowledge that acne is caused by stress due to peer pressure.  To say that Jesus had acne, you might as well say that He could rest in His trust of the Father enough to deliever Him from this stress.  This would have been sin.

We as christians, only have to deal with disease in the areas in our lives that are still under the law.  Those areas that are under grace will never yield disease, for in these areas we are yielded to the Father and are pertakers of the life of Christ.  The life of Christ always brings life, not death.  So any area in our life that is under Christ life will yield prosperity and blessing.
 
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SpiritPsalmist

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Originally posted by SnuP
Accually to say that Jesus had acne is to say that Jesus was under the cures of sin and death.  All disease is introduced to the human race as a result of sin.  Jesus not being subject to the law of sin and death, faced death without sin.  Most dematologist acknowledge that acne is caused by stress due to peer pressure.  To say that Jesus had acne, you might as well say that He could rest in His trust of the Father enough to deliever Him from this stress.  This would have been sin.

We as christians, only have to deal with disease in the areas in our lives that are still under the law.  Those areas that are under grace will never yield disease, for in these areas we are yielded to the Father and are pertakers of the life of Christ.  The life of Christ always brings life, not death.  So any area in our life that is under Christ life will yield prosperity and blessing.

Well said SnuP, and welcome to the discussion. 
 
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Caedmon

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Originally posted by Andrew
B4 Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirt at his baptism -- b4 he even performed miracles -- God opened the heavens and declared "This is my beloved Son in whom I'm well pleased!" God was pleased with his Son from the time he was born. Jesus was perfect all the way -- whether spiritual or physical. If you want to degrade him by saying he had acne, was sick like the rest of us etc, then I seriously wonder what spirit you are of!

Hold up... I just noticed this...

Before He was filled with the Holy Spirit? :scratch:

It's very hard for me to believe that Jesus wasn't always filled with the Holy Spirit. For you to say that Jesus, at any point, did not have the Holy Spirit is to "degrade him" as well.
 
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SnuP

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thanks Quaffer,

Jesus said that if we would drink of the water that He gives, then we would have a well spring of living water that never shall run dry.  If this is so then there is a supernatural restoration of fulfillment, i.e. relationship.  Water has been called the fluid of life.  All life needs water to sustain it.  But God offers us living water.  Water that does more then just sustain.

Let us run to this relationship, and submit ourselves to the washing of the word.  That the life of Christ may reign in every area of our life, and we may be partakers of the good gift.

To be one even as Christ and the Father are one.
 
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Andrew

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quote: "It's very hard for me to believe that Jesus wasn't always filled with the Holy Spirit."

again, just your opinion. provide scripture. I'm talking about his baptism and how the Holy Spirit descended on him and hence the start of miracles from then on.

quote:"You have said that sickness is not always sin, but lust is always sin... bad comparison."

If that's the case, why not say Jesus was cross-eyed, had an extra toe ....come on why stop at acne? I'm sure you can come up with many other teenage maladys.

You degrade the Son of God :(, the perfect Lamb that takes away the sins of the world!
 
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SavedByGrace3

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"I'm a kitty, you're a kitty. I'm a kitty, you're a kitty."

If you believed these things in your heart, you would have them. Jesus said so. Luckily... you do not(nor will anyone else). The confession has to be from the heart.

Jesus said you have the things that you believe and say. You are today the product of all the things that you have believed and said.
 
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