Faith in science vs. faith in religion.

OldWiseGuy

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Yep.

Promoting the derived complexity of life by natural processes is by Faith.

View attachment 218625

Many claim mutations, adaptations, and natural selections took life produced through primordial soup generation to what we see today. Such is where many have placed their Faith.

It is by Faith many items in Science is presented.

It gets even better when you study the composition and function of each organ, tissue, and cell.
 
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Speedwell

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Yep.

Promoting the derived complexity of life by natural processes is by Faith.

View attachment 218625

Many claim mutations, adaptations, and natural selections took life produced through primordial soup generation to what we see today. Such is where many have placed their Faith.

It is by Faith many items in Science is presented.
Nobody takes science on "faith." Evolution, in particular, is a plausible explanation for the diversity of life which we observe, there is considerable evidence behind it and no competing alternative explanation at this time. Still, it could all (in principle, at least) be overturned tomorrow. That's the way it is with science.
 
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Michael

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Nobody takes science on "faith." Evolution, in particular, is a plausible explanation for the diversity of life which we observe, there is considerable evidence behind it and no competing alternative explanation at this time. Still, it could all (in principle, at least) be overturned tomorrow. That's the way it is with science.

While is possible to overturn pure empirical physical concepts, that's really not the case for ideas like dark matter, dark energy, inflation, space expansion, etc. In such cases the cause/effect mechanism being proposed is in fact an "act of faith" on the part of the believer, and overturning such ideas is virtually impossible.

For instance, we've now spent tens of billions of dollars looking for exotic types of matter, but none of have been found. Furthermore, the standard particle physics models has passed every conceivable "test" in the lab with flying colors.

Astronomers still have "faith" in exotic forms of matter, but they certainly have no direct cause/effect evidence to support that claim. There's also no obvious way to falsify the whole concept of exotic matter. It therefore can *only* be considered an "act of faith" on the part of the one holding belief (even tentative belief) in such a concept.
 
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Speedwell

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While is possible to overturn pure empirical physical concepts, that's really not the case for ideas like dark matter, dark energy, inflation, space expansion, etc. In such cases the cause/effect mechanism being proposed is in fact an "act of faith" on the part of the believer, and overturning such ideas is virtually impossible.

For instance, we've now spent tens of billions of dollars looking for exotic types of matter, but none of have been found. Furthermore, the standard particle physics models has passed every conceivable "test" in the lab with flying colors.

Astronomers still have "faith" in exotic forms of matter, but they certainly have no direct cause/effect evidence to support that claim. There's also no obvious way to falsify the whole concept of exotic matter. It therefore can *only* be considered an "act of faith" on the part of the one holding belief (even tentative belief) in such a concept.
I think "speculative hypothesis" is a better descriptor than "act of faith."
 
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Michael

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I think "speculative hypothesis" is a better descriptor than "act of faith."

I'd say it's six of one, a half dozen of the other. How else does one explain tens of billions of dollars of failed dark matter tests, and the popularity of the LCDM cosmology model? Hope springs eternal in science apparently. :)
 
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OldWiseGuy

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I'd say it's six of one, a half dozen of the other. How else does one explain tens of billions of dollars of failed dark matter tests, and the popularity of the LCDM cosmology model? Hope springs eternal in science apparently. :)

Science has one overwhelming success in this regard.......the raid on the Treasury.
 
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Kylie

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Really? They turned on you simply because you were "found out"? Well, that sucks. :(

This is true. Some do.

I've had people ask me if I wanted to go to their church, and when I said I was an atheist, they told me, "Oh, you need church even more then."

I once had a girl break up with me about it as well.
 
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Kylie

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Being criticized for the things you mentioned is rational. Being criticized for becoming a Christian isn't. No one will kill you for these other beliefs either.

So you're saying that it's rational to criticize people for one belief that is not supported by science, but it is not rational to criticize people for a different belief that is not supported by science?

If your husband is an atheist too I guarantee you that your relationship would change if one of you became a Christian, and not for the better.

My husband is a Christian. You claimed that Jesus said my friends and familiar will turn on me if I become a Christian. Will my Christian husband turn on me?
 
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OldWiseGuy

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So you're saying that it's rational to criticize people for one belief that is not supported by science, but it is not rational to criticize people for a different belief that is not supported by science?



My husband is a Christian. You claimed that Jesus said my friends and familiar will turn on me if I become a Christian. Will my Christian husband turn on me?

Not if you respect his beliefs. Most atheists have little respect for the "superstitious ignorance" of Christianity.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I've had people ask me if I wanted to go to their church, and when I said I was an atheist, they told me, "Oh, you need church even more then."
Yeah. I hear you. That's unfortunate that they came across that way. If it had been me, I simply would have said, "Ok. No problem. We can have some interesting discussions about science and/or the philosophy of science instead, then."

I once had a girl break up with me about it as well.
I once had a friend tell me he wanted to punch me for telling him that if he would look to God a bit more, things might work out better (in regard to his lack of female companionship). Fortunately, he never did punch me in the face for that. However, he did throw his wife's stuff out on the lawn toward the end of his marriage to her ...
 
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Kylie

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Not if you respect his beliefs. Most atheists have little respect for the "superstitious ignorance" of Christianity.

Ah, but that's not what we were talking about, was it?

The claim was made that my friends and family would turn on me if I converted to Christianity. My attitude towards my husband's beliefs is irrelevant to the discussion. Indeed, if I start SHARING the same beliefs as my husband, then how would he see that as being disrespectful?
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Ah, but that's not what we were talking about, was it?

The claim was made that my friends and family would turn on me if I converted to Christianity. My attitude towards my husband's beliefs is irrelevant to the discussion. Indeed, if I start SHARING the same beliefs as my husband, then how would he see that as being disrespectful?

The claim is a general statement that has been true since the birth of Christianity.
 
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Ophiolite

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Most atheists have little respect for the "superstitious ignorance" of Christianity.
Why would anyone respect superstitious ignorance? I respect Chrisitianity, but not the superstitious ignorance that some Christians have chosen to burden their religion with. I object strenuously to that superstitious ignorance precisely because I respect Christianity.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Why would anyone respect superstitious ignorance? I respect Chrisitianity, but not the superstitious ignorance that some Christians have chosen to burden their religion with. I object strenuously to that superstitious ignorance precisely because I respect Christianity.

By "superstitious ignorance" I mean the belief in the personage of God and the divinity of Jesus Christ (toss in creation, miracles, afterlife, as well).
 
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Ophiolite

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By "superstitious ignorance" I mean the belief in the personage of God and the divinity of Jesus Christ (toss in creation, miracles, afterlife, as well).
I know you did, but I'm not going to miss an opportunity to make a point I believe to be important. I've noticed you do that, even when there isn't an opportunity. :)
 
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OldWiseGuy

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I know you did, but I'm not going to miss an opportunity to make a point I believe to be important. I've noticed you do that, even when there isn't an opportunity. :)

There is always the opportunity to add relevant information.
 
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Kylie

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The claim is a general statement that has been true since the birth of Christianity.

And you know what? It would be a lot more impressive if it didn't also apply to every single other religion there is!
 
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Kylie

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Not if you respect his beliefs. Most atheists have little respect for the "superstitious ignorance" of Christianity.

I respect people's right to hold the belief.

But the belief itself has no respect from me. Ideas do not deserve respect. Ideas - ALL ideas - must be open to criticism.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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And you know what? It would be a lot more impressive if it didn't also apply to every single other religion there is!

In most of the world's other religions you are ostracized if you aren't a devotee.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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I respect people's right to hold the belief.

But the belief itself has no respect from me. Ideas do not deserve respect. Ideas - ALL ideas - must be open to criticism.

Please understand, it's not the 'belief' that causes the problems, it's the practice. Many believe in Christianity, but are in no danger of actually practicing it.
 
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