Faith in science vs. faith in religion.

FrumiousBandersnatch

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So let's recap the various LCDM 'statements of faith":

1. All the mass/energy of the universe was once concentrated to something smaller than a proton.
Not a good start. The observable universe would have been roughly that size, but the whole universe was many times larger, and is generally taken to have been infinite. Spacetime curvature would presumably have been extreme, once it had emerged - it is thought probable that at the earliest time, all forces were unified and spacetime as we know it (including the four known forces and matter) was the result of progressive symmetry breaking.

Birth of the Universe
1*SmNZbwiX718LnFhHYvV6ew.png
 
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Michael

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Not a good start. The observable universe would have been roughly that size, but the whole universe was many times larger, and is generally taken to have been infinite.

Wait a minute! You just got through telling me:

But the conventional explanation, as I understand it, is that the Schwartzchild assumptions don't apply, because the BB wasn't a hot dense point in space, it was all space,....

Was the whole universe smaller than a proton, or was it infinite, in which case it definitely had a Schwartzchild radius around it. You can't have it both ways.

Spacetime curvature would presumably have been extreme, once it had emerged - it is thought probable that at the earliest time, all forces were unified and spacetime as we know it (including the four known forces and matter) was the result of progressive symmetry breaking.
1*SmNZbwiX718LnFhHYvV6ew.png

If all the forces were unified, then gravity and curvature still existed as a "unified" force/curvature. When *exactly* are you suggesting that gravity emerged as a "separate" thing (10^-43?) and how large was the universe (physically) at that point?
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Was the whole universe smaller than a proton, or was it infinite, in which case it definitely had a Schwartzchild radius around it. You can't have it both ways.
I said the observable universe was roughly the size of a proton - you just quoted me saying that :doh:

If all the forces were unified, then gravity and curvature still existed as a "unified" force/curvature. When *exactly* are you suggesting that gravity emerged as a "separate" thing (10^-43?) and how large was the universe (physically) at that point?
Under unification, gravity clearly wouldn't exist as a separate force. It is proposed to have emerged around 10^-43 seconds; (I suspect *exactness* is an ambiguous concept in this extreme regime). The physical size of the universe (if that means much when spacetime as we know it barely exists and everything is expanding exponentially) is unknown, and - as I already said - is usually taken to be infinite.

If you're really interested, this stuff is all available to read online; Google is your friend.
 
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Michael

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Under unification, gravity clearly wouldn't exist as a separate force.

But that's the first major problem with this so called "model": It deviates from GR theory from the start and then it relies on GR theory thereafter.

Gravity isn't a "force" in GR, it's a geometric curvature of spacetime. In order to claim that gravity is a force, one is essentially treating gravity under a QM definition of the term "gravity' to be able to claim that it is a "force" which is "unified" with other "forces".

Even a "unified" form of gravity isn't a "non existent" form of gravity so the curvature produced by the proton sized object would still apply even if all the forces are unified.

If you're really interested, this stuff is all available to read online; Google is your friend.

Google seems to be rather conflicted on these points as well.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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But that's the first major problem with this so called "model": It deviates from GR theory from the start and then it relies on GR theory thereafter.
Yes, in the early regime QM effects predominate.

Gravity isn't a "force" in GR, it's a geometric curvature of spacetime. In order to claim that gravity is a force, one is essentially treating gravity under a QM definition of the term "gravity' to be able to claim that it is a "force" which is "unified" with other "forces".
Yes; they're both useful models. GR is easier to use when QM effects are insignificant; quantum gravity is the best model for regimes where QM effects predominate. However, as you're probably aware, although it works fine for everyday regimes, QG is problematic in exotic quantum regimes, so the details of how QG emerges from the unified forces is unclear.

Even a "unified" form of gravity isn't a "non existent" form of gravity so the curvature produced by the proton sized object would still apply even if all the forces are unified.
When the forces are unified, all is symmetry; the behaviours of the forces we see emerged as a result of symmetry breaking, so at unification there was no spacetime as we know it to curve. And what would become the observable universe was just a small part of what would become the whole universe.

Google seems to be rather conflicted on these points as well.
The usual study advice applies - find authoritative sources on the subjects.
 
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Michael

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Yes, in the early regime QM effects predominate.

FYI, this would be a prime example of a "statement of faith". Even that's an "assumption" based on the dogma itself since GR would preclude anything from exiting the Schwarzchild radius, no matter how much energy you try to put into it. It's size and mass alone would dictate it's fate in GR.

Yes; they're both useful models. GR is easier to use when QM effects are insignificant; quantum gravity is the best model for regimes where QM effects predominate.

So why would GR dominate in any ordinary "black hole" scenario, and not dominate in a scenario where all the mass energy of the whole universe is packed into something the size of a proton? It seems like an arbitrary choice just to circumvent the obvious fate of such a compact and massive object.

However, as you're probably aware, although it works fine for everyday regimes, QG is problematic in exotic quantum regimes, so the details of how QG emerges from the unified forces is unclear.

So really the whole LCDM concept is a relatively "unclear" (from the start) statement of faith in the belief that QM is a "better" way to express early events and GR is somehow appropriate at some time X, after the "bang".

There really isn't a lot of difference here between that statement of faith, and any other religious statement of faith. Neither of us was there to be sure it's even an accurate assumption.

When the forces are unified, all is symmetry; the behaviours of the forces we see emerged as a result of symmetry breaking, so at unification there was no spacetime as we know it to curve. And what would become the observable universe was just a small part of what would become the whole universe.

The key here is the fact that Guth stuck all the mass/energy of the universe into a tiny object. At that point, in GR at least, the whole thing fit inside of it's own Schwarzchild radius, and nothing should have prevented it from collapsing in GR. No amount of energy added to the system would make any difference in GR.

The usual study advice applies - find authoritative sources on the subjects.

The concept of 'authority' here is really no different than asking various 'high priests' the opinions. Guth has one opinion in terms of the overall size of the object, and yet I've heard other opinions from other astronomers about the early size issues that aren't quite the same as his beliefs. It seems to vary from one individual to the next.

It's hard to consider someone an "authority" on something that one "lacks belief" in. I find it about as credible as you might find me suggesting that you talk to a Priest about the various attributes of God. In this case I lack belief in space expansion, inflation, and dark things, so there are actually four different "beliefs" that I lack belief in, so the concept of 'authority" seems silly from my perspective. The authorities cannot even name so much as a single source of 'dark energy' and there are multiple variations of inflation concepts to choose from.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Michael, you're just repeating misunderstandings I've already explained. I'm not going to repeat myself again.

It's hard to consider someone an "authority" on something that one "lacks belief" in.
I don't see why; for example, I lack a belief in Hindu goddesses, but I have no problem considering Professor Francis X. Clooney an authority on them.

But I can't help you with that, except to say that in science beliefs about theories & hypotheses are indirect and provisional - one believes that a particular hypothesis is the best available, or the most likely to be correct, where being 'correct' means being a reliable explanatory and predictive model.
 
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Michael

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I don't see why; for example, I lack a belief in Hindu goddesses, but I have no problem considering Professor Francis X. Clooney an authority on them.

Be that as it may, that "authority" aspect doesn't mean that you believe that Hindu goddesses actually exist. If they don't exist, is that authority 'real' or is it simply imagined?

But I can't help you with that, except to say that in science beliefs about theories & hypotheses are indirect and provisional - one believes that a particular hypothesis is the best available, or the most likely to be correct, where being 'correct' means being a reliable explanatory and predictive model.

The suggestion that LCDM has any actual "explanatory" value is dubious. It's an entirely subjective belief since nobody can name so much as a single source of dark energy nor "explain" how it retains a constant density over multiple exponential increases in volume, and dark energy makes up the *vast majority* of the LCDM model. What kind of "non explanation' is that? It literally creates more unanswered questions than it actually answers.

Likewise the notion of 'predictive' value is equally misleading since LCDM is mostly *postdicted* to fit some specific observation or another. It's "predictive usefulness" has been exactly zero when it comes to predicting events in controlled experimentation at LHC, LUX, Pandax, Xenon-1T or anywhere else. How is LCDM "predicatively" useful?

The notion of "provisional" is also rather dubious when the "authorities" make no attempt to convey the concept of "provisional", and instead they claim to have "knowledge" that isn't actually 'knowledge' at all, it's simply a subjective "opinion".

There really isn't any functional or empirical difference between faith in the LCDM model, and faith in God. Neither concept is even falsifiable to begin with.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Be that as it may, that "authority" aspect doesn't mean that you believe that Hindu goddesses actually exist. If they don't exist, is that authority 'real' or is it simply imagined?
Authorities are simply acknowledged experts on the subject, whether real, imaginary, or theoretical; for example, J.K.Rowling is an authority on Harry Potter and his adventures.
 
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Michael

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Authorities are simply acknowledged experts on the subject, whether real, imaginary, or theoretical; for example, J.K.Rowling is an authority on Harry Potter and his adventures.

Even J.K. Rowling has an 'explanation' as to where Harry Potter comes from. She seems to be a "better" authority on Harry Potter than any "authority" on inflation or dark energy. :)
 
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OldWiseGuy

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The difference is this.

Science can be tested. Religion can not.

If you can propose a way to test religion, I will be happy to do so, and if it passes that test, then I will become a member of said religion.

Christianity is easily tested. Jesus said your family and friends will turn on you if you believe in him. Try it and see for yourself. It will be noteworthy that the animus that will be directed at you is completely irrational.
 
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Kylie

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Christianity is easily tested. Jesus said your family and friends will turn on you if you believe in him. Try it and see for yourself. It will be noteworthy that the animus that will be directed at you is completely irrational.

So what? My friends and family will probably turn on me if I say I want to be an anti-vaxxer, or a flat earther, doesn't mean that either of those is right. And I have several friends who are Christian, will they turn on me as well? Not to mention my husband. What of him?

In fact, I have had several people turn on me when they found out I am an atheist - does that mean atheism is right?

All your claim shows is that people sometimes take it as a personal attack when someone doesn't share their same religious beliefs.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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So what? My friends and family will probably turn on me if I say I want to be an anti-vaxxer, or a flat earther, doesn't mean that either of those is right. And I have several friends who are Christian, will they turn on me as well? Not to mention my husband. What of him?

In fact, I have had several people turn on me when they found out I am an atheist - does that mean atheism is right?
Really? They turned on you simply because you were "found out"? Well, that sucks. :(

All your claim shows is that people sometimes take it as a personal attack when someone doesn't share their same religious beliefs.
This is true. Some do.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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So what? My friends and family will probably turn on me if I say I want to be an anti-vaxxer, or a flat earther, doesn't mean that either of those is right. And I have several friends who are Christian, will they turn on me as well? Not to mention my husband. What of him?

In fact, I have had several people turn on me when they found out I am an atheist - does that mean atheism is right?

All your claim shows is that people sometimes take it as a personal attack when someone doesn't share their same religious beliefs.

Being criticized for the things you mentioned is rational. Being criticized for becoming a Christian isn't. No one will kill you for these other beliefs either.

If your husband is an atheist too I guarantee you that your relationship would change if one of you became a Christian, and not for the better.
 
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Heissonear

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But I can't help you with that, except to say that in science beliefs about theories & hypotheses are indirect and provisional - one believes that a particular hypothesis is the best available, or the most likely to be correct, where being 'correct' means being a reliable explanatory and predictive model.
Michael has made the proper impact on "Science" and how it requires "Belief and Faith".

Some try to make distinction in placing one's faith in a particular manor, but the distinctions are still placing ones Faith in what he believes.

I would say this tread has many posts showing just what Michael intended it for. There is no distiction in how one places his Faith. It is the same root. Distinction does not apply based on subject matter.

Science has people placing their Faith in many matters - all based on them not the subject. The subject is open to be disproven over time. And placing Faith without direct observation is what is happening in many matters in Science.

It is eye opening when one wakes up to how much Faith is required to "recieve" the specific science presented as existing and true.

Science requires faith. It is a fact.
 
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Heissonear

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There really isn't any functional or empirical difference between faith in the LCDM model, and faith in God. Neither concept is even falsifiable to begin with.
Simple restating of the OP.

The OP contains eye opening truth. Science presents many major items requiring Faith to believe in order for such to be true. Science presents Faith based truths on many major maters, even the Big Bang and life from Primordial Soup.
 
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Heissonear

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Yes, Science requires Faith to accept something has factually happened, even without the specifics of how such happened. It is a rigorous stand by Faith by Scientists. No ifs about it. They stand by Faith in such being real and factual.

Screenshot_20180119-105556.jpg


Science has many matters based on Faith. And where others can see where they have placed their Faith. The evidence of such does not exist. It is a Stand by Faith.
 
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