Faith in faith

dms1972

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In the Bible, "faith" is synonymous with "trust". I've read Edward Feser's book on Aquinas, which I would recommend, but he has defined "faith" as "nothing less than the will to keep one's mind fixed precisely on what reason has discovered to it".

Ok this sounds a lot like what CS Lewis refered to as faith in the first sense, which he says is holding on to what you have previously come to see to be true. It means accepting or regarding as true the doctrines of christianity. He says that the human mind isn't ruled completely by reason, and that imagination and emotion also play apart. So there is a battle going on between faith and reason on the one hand and imagination and emotion on the other.

There is another sort of faith he says, in a higher sense, and that comes into play further on, and we should not keep checking to see if we have got that.

Ok here's my difficulty, are Lewis and Kierrkegarrd talking about Reason in the same sense?

For Kierkegarrd Faith is both above Reason, and against reason.

But Lewis if I understand him sees Reason as helping him to know the doctrines of christianity are true.

People believe, on different grounds. One is Authority another seems to be Reason, another seems to be Scholarship and another Experience. Perhaps these need to come together to some extent.

But there seems be a conflict be between Authority, and going and attempting to figure out if its true by oneself. That is like rebeling against the authority of the church.

With regard to Schaeffer he says he didn't grow up in a christian home, and he was studying philosophy and in order to be intellectually honest he included the Bible in his studies. He says within six months he was converted.
 
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Soyeong

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What I am also struggling with are these 'scholars' who come along and claim Jesus never existed.

There is more evidence for the existence of Jesus than pretty much any other historical figure, so the same standard that those 'scholars' use to call into question his existence could be used to call into question pretty much all of history. I quoted a link earlier to an article called the Impossible Faith, which argued that it would have been impossible for Christianity to have survived long after Christ's death unless he had be resurrected, which I think would have been even more impossible if Christ hadn't even existed, so I find it much harder to believe that he didn't exist than that he resurrected. It's one thing to doubt that Jesus existed and quite another to be able to construct a narrative where he did not exist that explains the known facts better than his existence does. I have a friend who regularly reads books written by scholars that he disagrees with in order to challenge his views, which I greatly admire, so I can respect scholars who think Christianity is false, but I think that it can also get to the point of absurdity where should not take someone seriously. My problem is that I am a slow reader, the the list of books that I want to read is growing faster than I can read them.

There is another sort of faith he says, in a higher sense, and that comes into play further on, and we should not keep checking to see if we have got that.

Ok here's my difficulty, are Lewis and Kierrkegarrd talking about Reason in the same sense?

For Kierkegarrd Faith is both above Reason, and against reason.

But Lewis if I understand him sees Reason as helping him to know the doctrines of christianity are true.

Kierrkegarrd thought that faith was not about obedience, but rather that it was about believing in something that we know to be impossible when there is no reason to believe it. I think a reason to believe something is the cause of that belief, so to suggest that it is possible for someone believe what know to be impossible when they have no reason to believe is to suggest that it is possible for a belief to spontaneously form uncaused, which I think is impossible, so I disagree with Kierrkegarrd on this matter. When God said that what He commanded is for our own good and when we believe what God said is true, then we express our faith in Him about how we should live by living in obedience to His commands, and Hebrews 11 is full of examples of people doing this.

When he said that there is an abandonment of reason when one chooses to have authentic faith, I can see where he is coming from, but I still disagree. For example, if someone who you've know to be extremely trustworthy promised that they will do something and you begin to see reasons to think they won't be able to keep their promise, then there is a sense in which you are abandoning what your reason is telling you and believing what your reason is telling you is impossible. However, this is done through focusing on the good reasons that you had for believing that they will keep their promise, so it is not that you have abandoned your reasons for thinking that they won't be able to keep their promise, but that you still have stronger reasons for thinking that they will keep their promise. Even if you do not see how it will be possible for them to keep their promise, that is not the same as knowing it to be impossible when there is no reason to believe it because your mind is still focused on the reasons for thinking that it is possible.

People believe, on different grounds. One is Authority another seems to be Reason, another seems to be Scholarship and another Experience. Perhaps these need to come together to some extent.

But there seems be a conflict be between Authority, and going and attempting to figure out if its true by oneself. That is like rebeling against the authority of the church.

I think a good motto is to test everything. In Acts 17:11, the Bereans were not praised because they accepted everything Paul said at face value based on his authority, but rather they were praised because they diligently checked everything against Scripture to see if what he said was true before they accepted his message. The Bible discusses some serious issues, so I think it is very important to investigate whether it is true and I think someone who does this can have a much stronger faith than someone who believes just because that is what they were taught.
 
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dms1972

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Kierrkegarrd thought that faith was not about obedience, but rather that it was about believing in something that we know to be impossible when there is no reason to believe it

I find your other comments helpful, particularly your point that the growth of the church is evidence of the resurrection of Jesus. For while Jesus was without sin and his Kingdom is not of this world. We don't really know how many insurrectionists there were in those times because nothing much is known of them, they have no followers today.

In your above quote however I think you misunderstand Kierrkegarrd, though I am not saying you need read him as often with writers like SK they can generate cognitive disonance if you have been taught in another manner. As far as I understand him, he thought belief and obedience went together, for he said 'the reason it is so hard to believe is that it is so hard to obey', faith involved a paradoxical movement that was impossible for him except in the moment of the visitation of God's Spirit. But I do believe he was a christian. He had a disposition like St Paul, being only able to devote his life to one thing.

It would be wrong to see his struggle towards faith as a model to follow.

What doesn't seem to be understood or at least a case could be made that Kierkegarrd was challenging the Platonic and Hegelian notion that truth is latent within us. For Kierkegarrd truth about God and about ourselves had to be given to us by a Teacher, who is God and our Saviour.
 
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Soyeong

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I find your other comments helpful, particularly your point that the growth of the church is evidence of the resurrection of Jesus. For while we don't really know how many insurrectionists there were in those times because nothing much is known of them, they have no followers today.

Mind you, there have been many religions that have grown to popularity, so the growth of a religion doesn't necessarily mean that it is true. However, there were many factors that Christianity faced that other religions didn't or not to as great of extent, and there were also many advantages that other religions had that Christianity did not have. For example, Islam spread through the sword.

Here's another link to the article:

The Impossible Faith

In your above quote however I think you misunderstand Kierrkegarrd,

Perhaps I need review him, it's been a while. When I took an intro to philosophy class in college, it was an overview of what many philosophers have said, but it didn't go into a lot of depth. Sadly, I didn't become more interested in philosophy until years later, specifically Aquinas, and it wasn't until then that I realized the grave injustice that had been done to him where we had just read his summary statement of his Five Ways without reading the hundreds of pages in support of them, then dismissed them without actually understanding them or by reading assumptions into them that he would never have made. Most people probably never give Aquinas a second thought, which probably done with other philosophers, so that we don't realize just how intelligent these people were without doing an indepth study of them. So I apologize for doing injustice to Kierrkegarrd.
 
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dms1972

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Faith has to be focused on and centred in Christ to be the faith that God accepts. When Hebrews 11 lists the exploits of faith, the writer is saying that it is faith in Christ, not just faith in itself. Faith in a person, in a church, even in the Bible itself is not enough to save a person; but it has to be faith directly that in Christ as the Son Of God and that He rose from the dead. It is that faith that releases the promises of God. Because the Father has placed all the affairs of the Church in the hands of Christ, then even faith in the Father or in the Holy Spirit is misdirected. If we direct our faith to either of them, they will respond, "What think ye of Christ?" It is our attitude to Christ that makes or breaks us.

Thankyou for your reply. I apologise for not replying sooner, but I wanted to address a couple of other points.

I am finding that though I am taking a intellectual path that this seems to be what I need to do just now. I am not ignoring scripture. What I am doing helps me to clarify what the wrong turns are. For instance beginning with theology can often be a pitfall because classical theology defines God quite philosophically. If one wants to begin with God, you have to know where to look. And though this does not refer to all theology, one finds often that its the God of classical theism, defined in a manner that would make it impossible to conceive of God condescending, or being capable of taking on the form of a servant. One has to begin by looking to Jesus Christ, as revealed in scripture. So explains GC Berkowwer very helpfully.
 
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