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SW501

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Hi,

I have a problem and I am hoping this community can help. I wholeheartedly want to believe in a God. The Christian God I am most familiar with as went to a catholic school growing up and my parents were born again and I even attended the church in my teens (I am now 36).

A bit about me. I am a thinker and if I am curious about something I can not let it go until I find the answer. Always, been inquisitive and if I decide to learn something I will learn it inside and out.

When I was a teen I attended a church and I think I was generally accepted until I started to ask questions. They would say things like "You just have to accept this on faith" and because of the way I am (right or wrong) I just could not accept this. I had an extremely good relationship with my Grand Parents and they taught me from an early age to question everything. Now I am not sure if this caused them to see me as trouble but honestly, I wasn't, I just had this need for answers.

Anyway, at the age of 15, I met my wife to be and to cut a long story short I ended up having a pastor visit our house and basically accuse us of doing things which we were not. At this point, I never went back again as I just felt like I was being judged. In truth, it was that event that put me on a path where I turned away and never stepped foot in a church since.

Later in life, i lost the most important person in my life (my Nanna) to cancer and this made me question further and I was in a dark place for a decade. I have since lost my grandfather and for some reason, I started to be able to grief and wondered if I was getting a helping hand so to speak. At this point in my life, I was bordering on wanting to believe and my wife was a flat out non-believer.

We now have two kids but had two really bad miscarriages one before each pregnancy. This actually brought my wife to God who is a strong believer (but does not attend church as she feel they judge because of our earlier experience as she went to the same church).

I would say the pain of these miscarriages turned me back the other was and I was really angry.

Fast forward to now. I have two amazing children and they have changed my whole life. Before them it is like i saw life in black and white and when my first son was born it was like I saw in color for the first time. It has really changed me and I feel things so much more now (which is hard for me as a man as my family really don't do feelings). So now if I see suffering on the tv or in the street it really affects me and I want to help. Its not that I didn't want to help before as if I noticed I would always help but not I feel compelled, if that makes sense.

So now my question.

I really really really want to 100% be a believer but my mind has questions which cant be answered or I may read something in the bible and I am like no way is that true etc. I believe the bible was written by a man ultimately so you can not take everything as gospel (parden the pun).

Its like I need to believe, its hard to explain but I just can't and when I try my mind asks things like what about all the suffering etc the usual stuff.

My intention is really not to offend and if I have with anything I write I am sorry. Please help.

I am sorry for the really long post and if it is in the wrong place.
 

PropheticTimes

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Hello and welcome. :)

I understand your train of thought, as I have been there myself. Once I began to let go of my own preconceived notions and thoughts that were "of my own" understanding, genuinely seeking truth, I found it.

Your belief that Scripture was written by men uninspired by God should be your first turning point. Here are some facts and information about the Bible that may help you -
Why You Can Believe the Bible

When you begin to understand that it was written by 40 men over 1500 years and yet is fluent in its message and when you see the archaeological evidence for its validity, it helps a lot.

I would also recommend The Case for Christ by Lee Stroebel (and also The Case for Faith by him). He was an atheistic investigative journalist with a believing wife. He set out to prove the Bible and "God" to be wrong, and ended up finding so much proof that he became Christian. The documentary he made is below if you are interested.

I pray you find what you seek. My prayers are with you.

 
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paul becke

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Hi,

I have a problem and I am hoping this community can help. I wholeheartedly want to believe in a God. The Christian God I am most familiar with as went to a catholic school growing up and my parents were born again and I even attended the church in my teens (I am now 36).

A bit about me. I am a thinker and if I am curious about something I can not let it go until I find the answer. Always, been inquisitive and if I decide to learn something I will learn it inside and out.

When I was a teen I attended a church and I think I was generally accepted until I started to ask questions. They would say things like "You just have to accept this on faith" and because of the way I am (right or wrong) I just could not accept this. I had an extremely good relationship with my Grand Parents and they taught me from an early age to question everything. Now I am not sure if this caused them to see me as trouble but honestly, I wasn't, I just had this need for answers.

Anyway, at the age of 15, I met my wife to be and to cut a long story short I ended up having a pastor visit our house and basically accuse us of doing things which we were not. At this point, I never went back again as I just felt like I was being judged. In truth, it was that event that put me on a path where I turned away and never stepped foot in a church since.

Later in life, i lost the most important person in my life (my Nanna) to cancer and this made me question further and I was in a dark place for a decade. I have since lost my grandfather and for some reason, I started to be able to grief and wondered if I was getting a helping hand so to speak. At this point in my life, I was bordering on wanting to believe and my wife was a flat out non-believer.

We now have two kids but had two really bad miscarriages one before each pregnancy. This actually brought my wife to God who is a strong believer (but does not attend church as she feel they judge because of our earlier experience as she went to the same church).

I would say the pain of these miscarriages turned me back the other was and I was really angry.

Fast forward to now. I have two amazing children and they have changed my whole life. Before them it is like i saw life in black and white and when my first son was born it was like I saw in color for the first time. It has really changed me and I feel things so much more now (which is hard for me as a man as my family really don't do feelings). So now if I see suffering on the tv or in the street it really affects me and I want to help. Its not that I didn't want to help before as if I noticed I would always help but not I feel compelled, if that makes sense.

So now my question.

I really really really want to 100% be a believer but my mind has questions which cant be answered or I may read something in the bible and I am like no way is that true etc. I believe the bible was written by a man ultimately so you can not take everything as gospel (parden the pun).

Its like I need to believe, its hard to explain but I just can't and when I try my mind asks things like what about all the suffering etc the usual stuff.

My intention is really not to offend and if I have with anything I write I am sorry. Please help.

I am sorry for the really long post and if it is in the wrong place.

You really must understand that we canNOT understand everything. Even in heaven, we will not be able to plumb the depths of God, no way, no how. In any case, in this life of the spirit we lead here on earth, there are and always will be mysteries, paradoxes absolutely repugnant to reason. In fact, the deeper scientists plumb the nature of matter, itself, the more extensive the barrier of paradoxes they have to face - hence atheist physicists have been reduced to wild conjectures, wishing to reject the conventionally-agreed characteristics defining empirical science, such as testablity, for instance.

Christian physicists have taken a leaf out of the book of their Chrsitian faith, in that they accept the paradoxes they encounter as intrinsically-imponderable mysteries, but nevertheless use them as kind of staging-posts and springboards from which they can launch themselves into the pursuit of further understanding, incorporating the mysteries as a given. Our absolutely primordial springboard is the Most Holy Trinity, and many other mysteries of the faith are further generated further down the line. Some might argue that the simple God of Abraham was the ultimate primordial mystery, since it predated our acquaintance with the Holy Trinity.

There very are many things I do not understand in the Bible, but I have learnt to be very grateful for what understanding of other things God has given me, and put the rest on 'the back-burner'. Many such puzzles have, in fact, become clear to me in due course, though probably more via the grace of the Holy Spirit enlightening my intuition.

It is a mark of intelligence, even wisdom, to minimise, to economise on your efforts to learn, by referring to the works on the particualr subject of other people. Of course, it requires a measure of discernment, but we should have something of an instinct for truth, I believe ; for identifying reliable sources.
 
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Serving Zion

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Hi,

I have a problem and I am hoping this community can help. I wholeheartedly want to believe in a God. The Christian God I am most familiar with as went to a catholic school growing up and my parents were born again and I even attended the church in my teens (I am now 36).

A bit about me. I am a thinker and if I am curious about something I can not let it go until I find the answer. Always, been inquisitive and if I decide to learn something I will learn it inside and out.

When I was a teen I attended a church and I think I was generally accepted until I started to ask questions. They would say things like "You just have to accept this on faith" and because of the way I am (right or wrong) I just could not accept this. I had an extremely good relationship with my Grand Parents and they taught me from an early age to question everything. Now I am not sure if this caused them to see me as trouble but honestly, I wasn't, I just had this need for answers.

Anyway, at the age of 15, I met my wife to be and to cut a long story short I ended up having a pastor visit our house and basically accuse us of doing things which we were not. At this point, I never went back again as I just felt like I was being judged. In truth, it was that event that put me on a path where I turned away and never stepped foot in a church since.

Later in life, i lost the most important person in my life (my Nanna) to cancer and this made me question further and I was in a dark place for a decade. I have since lost my grandfather and for some reason, I started to be able to grief and wondered if I was getting a helping hand so to speak. At this point in my life, I was bordering on wanting to believe and my wife was a flat out non-believer.

We now have two kids but had two really bad miscarriages one before each pregnancy. This actually brought my wife to God who is a strong believer (but does not attend church as she feel they judge because of our earlier experience as she went to the same church).

I would say the pain of these miscarriages turned me back the other was and I was really angry.

Fast forward to now. I have two amazing children and they have changed my whole life. Before them it is like i saw life in black and white and when my first son was born it was like I saw in color for the first time. It has really changed me and I feel things so much more now (which is hard for me as a man as my family really don't do feelings). So now if I see suffering on the tv or in the street it really affects me and I want to help. Its not that I didn't want to help before as if I noticed I would always help but not I feel compelled, if that makes sense.

So now my question.

I really really really want to 100% be a believer but my mind has questions which cant be answered or I may read something in the bible and I am like no way is that true etc. I believe the bible was written by a man ultimately so you can not take everything as gospel (parden the pun).

Its like I need to believe, its hard to explain but I just can't and when I try my mind asks things like what about all the suffering etc the usual stuff.

My intention is really not to offend and if I have with anything I write I am sorry. Please help.

I am sorry for the really long post and if it is in the wrong place.
Hi there,

I like that you are a thinker, and that the truth is important to you, because I am like that too. This is why I would like to help you with this, but I don't want to assume to tell you what you need to know without first getting to know what the specific problems are.

I would like to offer that you look through this booklet that I have produced, to make sure that you've got a reliable foundation view of the gospel, and then if you will come back to me, then I would like to know what the specific things are that prevent you from believing (maybe you should list the few major issues), and then we should get into a good discussion to identify what lies at the very core. Then we shall see where you end up going from there :)

Adonai Reigns : The Gospel : God did not send his son to condemn the world!

Please be ready with patience and honesty, and we will make sure you are set in the right direction :hug::hug::hug:
 
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SW501

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Wow, i did not expect so many replies, thank you all. I will indeed look at the documentary and will try to find time to read the Adonai Reigns and get back to you.

I think the biggest hurdles in my mind are most likely the same as others. Why so much hatred and suffering is going on in the world (especially where children are involved). I will have a read and write down some of my thoughts. Its like when I start to lean to believing, or talking to whoever is hopefully up there all these thoughts and doubts get in my mind and I sort of shut the door then as don't want to be forced into a place where my brain says there is no way to believe this etc as i really want to. I know it most likely sounds a bit ridiculous.
 
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PKFox

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Welcome! Feel free to ask whatever questions you may have. You can pretty much just pick whatever forum you think is best for your question(s). There's even a Christian Advice forum that I've found very helpful, not only for my own needs, but also to see what others are struggling with and how I can relate to them or help them. I've found that there are a lot of nice people who give good advice and have great opinions about their beliefs that have helped me learn a lot about Christianity as a whole, and I just joined CF a week ago.

Enjoy and God bless!
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Hi,

I have a problem and I am hoping this community can help. I wholeheartedly want to believe in a God. The Christian God I am most familiar with as went to a catholic school growing up and my parents were born again and I even attended the church in my teens (I am now 36).

A bit about me. I am a thinker and if I am curious about something I can not let it go until I find the answer. Always, been inquisitive and if I decide to learn something I will learn it inside and out.

When I was a teen I attended a church and I think I was generally accepted until I started to ask questions. They would say things like "You just have to accept this on faith" and because of the way I am (right or wrong) I just could not accept this. I had an extremely good relationship with my Grand Parents and they taught me from an early age to question everything. Now I am not sure if this caused them to see me as trouble but honestly, I wasn't, I just had this need for answers.

Anyway, at the age of 15, I met my wife to be and to cut a long story short I ended up having a pastor visit our house and basically accuse us of doing things which we were not. At this point, I never went back again as I just felt like I was being judged. In truth, it was that event that put me on a path where I turned away and never stepped foot in a church since.

Later in life, i lost the most important person in my life (my Nanna) to cancer and this made me question further and I was in a dark place for a decade. I have since lost my grandfather and for some reason, I started to be able to grief and wondered if I was getting a helping hand so to speak. At this point in my life, I was bordering on wanting to believe and my wife was a flat out non-believer.

We now have two kids but had two really bad miscarriages one before each pregnancy. This actually brought my wife to God who is a strong believer (but does not attend church as she feel they judge because of our earlier experience as she went to the same church).

I would say the pain of these miscarriages turned me back the other was and I was really angry.

Fast forward to now. I have two amazing children and they have changed my whole life. Before them it is like i saw life in black and white and when my first son was born it was like I saw in color for the first time. It has really changed me and I feel things so much more now (which is hard for me as a man as my family really don't do feelings). So now if I see suffering on the tv or in the street it really affects me and I want to help. Its not that I didn't want to help before as if I noticed I would always help but not I feel compelled, if that makes sense.

So now my question.

I really really really want to 100% be a believer but my mind has questions which cant be answered or I may read something in the bible and I am like no way is that true etc. I believe the bible was written by a man ultimately so you can not take everything as gospel (parden the pun).

Its like I need to believe, its hard to explain but I just can't and when I try my mind asks things like what about all the suffering etc the usual stuff.

My intention is really not to offend and if I have with anything I write I am sorry. Please help.

I am sorry for the really long post and if it is in the wrong place.

Welcome to CF, SW501! It seems you've been through some real challenges over the years, and I can appreciate your heart in wanting to contend with suffering and yet find a way to believe in an intelligent manner.

Fortunately, you're in a good place to begin your exploration of the Christian faith; you have access to the Bible, something that not everyone in the world easily has. And you also have access to the Church--and by that I don't mean simply the local building of stone which houses local leaders and local parishioners, but you have many Christians in the world, of all denominations, with whom you can discuss viewpoints while on your journey to find faith in Jesus Christ. However, as a thinker, you'll have a lot to consider since you'll be hearing from many different angles.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid
 
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Cute Tink

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:hi:

Welcome to CF. Glad you could join us. If you need help with something, let me know.

I hope you enjoy your time and find what you are looking for here. I'm sure you will find some good conversations around here that will cover the things you are thinking about.

:bye:
 
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CtC

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Wow, i did not expect so many replies, thank you all. ... I think the biggest hurdles in my mind are most likely the same as others. Why so much hatred and suffering is going on in the world (especially where children are involved). I will have a read and write down some of my thoughts. Its like when I start to lean to believing, or talking to whoever is hopefully up there all these thoughts and doubts get in my mind and I sort of shut the door then as don't want to be forced into a place where my brain says there is no way to believe this etc as i really want to. I know it most likely sounds a bit ridiculous.

This doesn't sound ridiculous at all. I've always said that the deepest faith comes by way of doubt, questioning, seeking, experiencing, and ultimately, a confirmation via the touch of the Holy Spirit.

This sounds logically backwards, even as I write it, but I'm compelled to continue:

Be willing to take the first step. Ask God to be Lord of your life. Ask Him to reveal Himself to you in an undeniable way. Tell Him that you are willing to receive His gift of salvation. This is like dialing the phone. How can we expect to meet, let alone understand or know someone, if we aren't willing to give them a call? Open the line of communication.

From this point, you will have the opportunity to ask Him every and any question. Question Him daily. Question others, here, there, and everywhere. You will recognise the truth in what you read or hear as the Holy Spirit confirms it in your heart.
 
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Serving Zion

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Wow, i did not expect so many replies, thank you all. I will indeed look at the documentary and will try to find time to read the Adonai Reigns and get back to you.

I think the biggest hurdles in my mind are most likely the same as others. Why so much hatred and suffering is going on in the world (especially where children are involved).
I would like to really dig into this with you and treat this seriously, so that you can understand the reason for these things and then you will know how you are able to act in support of God. It is really important to realise that God is spirit, and He speaks to us in a spiritual way. He does have command of physics, so it is possible that He can be a booming voice in the sky. But, His desire is for us to recognise Christ in each other and to treat each other accordingly. In this way, when we come to receive Him, we find that we have a relationship with Him in the people we meet. But in order for us to receive Him, we need to be of good conscience, because He is light. God's presence as The Holy Spirit always brings to our conscious awareness, the things we have not been forgiven. (It makes me wonder whether those words had that effect just now).

.. Anyhow, seeing as children are so obedient and well-intentioned, they have this effect of stinging the conscience of grown-ups. You know how they say that misery loves company? Well, a grown up who is already stressed out and whose child is behaving so joyfully adding to that stress.. the grown up maybe falters into anger and knocks the life out of the child. One day the child discovers the power of independence and becomes one of those grown ups, not needing to be obedient and having no respect for his parent's wisdom because of resentment; he learns to conceal his sinfulness with deceit so as to do those things that his parents never allowed him to do. This is natural for all of us, albeit some more than others. Then before we know it, we are afraid of the full truth because it threatens to expose things that we rather would not like to have exposed (Genesis 3:10-11). So just as Adam and Eve did, we hide from God.

Jesus said that we will never see the Kingdom of God unless we turn around to become again as a little child (thereby accepting that we cannot cover our ways with deceit, but just as a child knows that their mother has eyes in the back of her head, so we know that God is always watching us). This is also what is meant by "circumcising the heart" - that is an illustrative way of saying that we become clean in thought, word and deed so that never do we flinch at the truth and have to hide the true nature of our heart. Then we are comfortable with the conviction that comes whenever The Holy Spirit speaks to us.

Now the other side of this, is that when we run away from God and begin to cover our ways with deceit, it becomes a trap for us that we keep testing the boundaries and we become more and more of the monster. Some people who do mean things to children for instance, have decided to believe that nobody will find out about it - or - that if somebody does find out about it, then nobody will act upon it (perhaps for fear).
I will have a read and write down some of my thoughts. Its like when I start to lean to believing, or talking to whoever is hopefully up there all these thoughts and doubts get in my mind and I sort of shut the door then as don't want to be forced into a place where my brain says there is no way to believe this etc as i really want to. I know it most likely sounds a bit ridiculous.
If we can look at some specific examples case-by-case, then I'm confident that you will come to see how God is vindicated. My goal is to convince you to trust Him and to form a relationship with Him, to recognise that He has invited you to pursue that relationship, so that through your action you can take the mantle of His power wherever you go and use His name to succeed in whatever you do to His glory (John 14:12-17). Don't concern yourself with all the rest about heaven and hell for now, because if you seek first His kingdom and Righteousness, then everything else that you need will be added unto you (Matthew 6:33-34).

Edit: oh, oops.. I mean welcome! Yes these discussions should be categorised to an appropriate sub-forum, my mistake! :D See you there! :wave:
 
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Soyeong

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Hi,

They would say things like "You just have to accept this on faith" and because of the way I am (right or wrong) I just could not accept this.

Hello,

I could not accept this either, nor do I think that is even possible to set aside our reason and just believe, but rather this is a misconception of faith. Faith can be defined as the will to keep one's mind focused on what reason has gathered to it. In other words, we can use our reason to determine that someone is trustworthy, so when they promise to do something, faith is having the will to keep our mind focus on our good reasons for thinking that they were trustworthy. So for example, take a scenario where someone is going camping for a week with a friend who told them that they told that they would bring all of the food and water. As they are are packing, they begin to worry about what if their friend forgets to bring the food and they'll be without food and water for a week, so maybe they should bring some of your own just in case. Having faith in their friend would be to keep their mind focused on the fact that their friend has have been on many camping trips and has a reputation for reliable, so when their friend says they will do something then they can take it to the bank, it is as good as done, and they don't need to waste time worrying about it. This is how we should trust God.

I really really really want to 100% be a believer but my mind has questions which cant be answered or I may read something in the bible and I am like no way is that true etc. I believe the bible was written by a man ultimately so you can not take everything as gospel (parden the pun).

We can only believe the things that we think are reasonable to believe. With that said, if you believe that God created the universe, then He would have no problem whatsoever accomplishing everything in the Bible, which doesn't necessarily mean that every claim about what He accomplished is true, but does put it into perspective.

Its like I need to believe, its hard to explain but I just can't and when I try my mind asks things like what about all the suffering etc the usual stuff.

If God were to take all the causes of suffering from least to greatests, remove the greatest, and create a new world where that was no longer possible, then people would still complain about why God allows so much suffering. God could continue to do this until He created a world where the worst suffering imaginable was stubbing your toe, and people would still complain about why an all loving God would allow that much. So the issue of why God allows so much suffering boils down to wondering why God allows any suffering whatsoever. Furthermore, if God were to create a world where it was only possible to experience a lesser joy or a greater joy, people would still wonder why God would want us to ever have the lesser experience. So I think the issue essentially boils down to wondering why an all-loving God wouldn't create us in some sort of stasis field where we would have no change of experience when He wants love us, for us to love Him, and for us to have the privilege of doing great good. If God were to do all the good that was available, then we would quite literally be good for nothing.

My intention is really not to offend and if I have with anything I write I am sorry. Please help.

I am sorry for the really long post and if it is in the wrong place

Don't worry about it.
 
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If God were to take all the causes of suffering from least to greatests, remove the greatest, and create a new world where that was no longer possible, then people would still complain about why God allows so much suffering. God could continue to do this until He created a world where the worst suffering imaginable was stubbing your toe, and people would still complain about why an all loving God would allow that much. So the issue of why God allows so much suffering boils down to wondering why God allows any suffering whatsoever. Furthermore, if God were to create a world where it was only possible to experience a lesser joy or a greater joy, people would still wonder why God would want us to ever have the lesser experience. So I think the issue essentially boils down to wondering why an all-loving God wouldn't create us in some sort of stasis field where we would have no change of experience when He wants love us, for us to love Him, and for us to have the privilege of doing great good. If God were to do all the good that was available, then we would quite literally be good for nothing.

This, my friend, is excellent. Well said.
 
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SW501

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Thank you all you have given me much to think about. I am about half way through the documentary and the booklet which was linked. I have also started reading the bible again.

I have in the past done something called the alpha course which discussed the history of Jesus. Honestly, I have never questioned if Jesus existed but more question if a he was the son of God. Again no offence intended as I know one thing and that Jesus was a great man and if we can all be like him the world would be a much better place. I want to believe and I am trying too.

I would like to ask what if you lead a good life, a moral life but can not reconcile this question what happens then? I have read a lot of books on different religeon and could it be all the same God if hes up heavens.

I also kind of understand what you were saying about suffering but what did a child ever do they are pure of heart surely they can be spared.

Sorry I am rambling a bit. For some reason when I think about this subject my mind jumps about which is so unlike me as I am very scientific about things usually.
 
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Soyeong

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Thank you all you have given me much to think about. I am about half way through the documentary and the booklet which was linked. I have also started reading the bible again.

I have in the past done something called the alpha course which discussed the history of Jesus. Honestly, I have never questioned if Jesus existed but more question if a he was the son of God. Again no offence intended as I know one thing and that Jesus was a great man and if we can all be like him the world would be a much better place. I want to believe and I am trying too.

If you haven't read C.S. Lewis' works, such as Mere Christianity or The Abolition of Man, then I recommend you read them:

https://www.dacc.edu/assets/pdfs/PCM/merechristianitylewis.pdf

http://www.basicincome.com/bp/files/The_Abolition_of_Man-C_S_Lewis.pdf

In Mere Christianity, he presented this argument:

I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept his claim to be God. That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to. ... Now it seems to me obvious that He was neither a lunatic nor a fiend: and consequently, however strange or terrifying or unlikely it may seem, I have to accept the view that He was and is God.

I would like to ask what if you lead a good life, a moral life but can not reconcile this question what happens then? I have read a lot of books on different religion and could it be all the same God if hes up heavens.

While there are many religions that speak about God, they conflicting and mutually exclusive things about Him. For example, Jesus said that he is the way, the truth, and the life, and that no man comes to the Father except through him (John 14:6), which can either be true or false, but can't be true while other religions provide a path to the same God. When you speak about living a moral life there is the issue of by standard we can use to determine if someone is living a moral live. For example, Islam teaches its follows to kill infidels and that when they give their lives to do their they gain automatic entrance to heaven and will be rewarded by their God. So according them their standard doing that is acting morally. Whereas, the God of Christianity does not want us to kill ourselves, but rather He loved us so much that he sent His Son to die for us.

In Philippians 3:4-8, by outward appearances Paul was living to a greater moral standard than most of us will ever reach, yet he counted it all as rubbish because his focus was not on growing in a relationship with Messiah, so he had been missing the whole point of obeying God's commands. It is of key importance in Christianity to grow in a relationship with Messiah, and following his commands because we love him and have faith in him to guide us is how we do that, but outward obedience while our hearts are far from him is rubbish.

I also kind of understand what you were saying about suffering but what did a child ever do they are pure of heart surely they can be spared.

At what age do you think it is appropriate for someone to start experiencing suffering? I recommend Paul Brand's and Philip Yancey's book The Gift of Pain:

Gift of Pain, The: Paul Brand, Philip Yancey: 9780310221449: Amazon.com: Books

If children didn't feel pain, then that would lead to serious injuries. Pain is an important indicator that something is wrong, so in its absence we would continue to injure ourselves without realizing it. For example, if a child were to touch a hot stove and if pain didn't indicate to them to yank their hand back, then they could easily end up with severe burns without realizing it. This is precisely why diseases like leprosy that destroy nerve endings are such a problem, and what causes untreated injuries to lead to permanent damage.

Sorry I am rambling a bit. For some reason when I think about this subject my mind jumps about which is so unlike me as I am very scientific about things usually.

Don't worry about it.
 
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SW501

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I dont accept that you have to believe Jesus was a lunatic of the son of God at all, sorry. He was someone who was trying to make the world better and help bring equality for all etc. I am not saying I dont believe, I want to I am just not there yet.

Leading a moral life to me means living as God would say treat others as you wish to be treated and place love above all else whenever possible.

I feel at some point maybe you have to let go of these question but I just cant and since having my two children i desperately want to believe so much for their sake more than my own. There cant be nothing for them. Their has to be something.
 
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Serving Zion

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Thank you all you have given me much to think about. I am about half way through the documentary and the booklet which was linked. I have also started reading the bible again.

I have in the past done something called the alpha course which discussed the history of Jesus. Honestly, I have never questioned if Jesus existed but more question if a he was the son of God. Again no offence intended as I know one thing and that Jesus was a great man and if we can all be like him the world would be a much better place. I want to believe and I am trying too.
Luke 1 and Luke 2 describe in detail that Jesus was not of a human father. There has been many people who knew God personally, but no other person ever had that relationship with Him except Jesus. This gave Jesus the ability to speak matter-of-factly when making claims that no one but the only-begotten son can make (eg John 14:6, Matthew 11:28-30).

On the other hand, many of us have a real living relationship with God, that we too can speak matter-of-factly in what we say (eg 2 Timothy 1:11-12, 2 Peter 1:3-4, John 1:12-13, 2 Corinthians 3:12, Mark 16:17-18).

When a Christian speaks in the power of God, The Holy Spirit points to Jesus through their words, whereas when Jesus spoke in the power of God, The Holy Spirit spoke through Him, claiming to be Christ Himself.

There are other people who from time to time claim to be the second coming of Christ, but you can see that they are not really speaking with the power of The Holy Spirit because their motive to make such claims is ego-driven (ie sinful) - not in accordance with God's will. Whereas, when you read what Jesus said, there is no mistaking that He speaks with the authority that belongs to the only-begotten, because He emptied Himself and became a perfectly honest representative of God (Philippians 2:5-8, Matthew 4:8-10).
I would like to ask what if you lead a good life, a moral life but can not reconcile this question what happens then? I have read a lot of books on different religeon and could it be all the same God if hes up heavens.
You know, Jesus said not long before His crucifixion, in John 12:35: "You have the light for yet a little longer. Walk while you have the light, lest the darkness overtake you. Those who walk in the darkness do not know where they are going."

.. and we see that after the apostles established the early church and the false teachers arose (eg 2 Peter 2:1-3), there was the beginning of a great apostasy or falling-away from the truth (2 Thessalonians 2:3).

Now what we have is the result of 2,000 years of false teachings, wolves in sheep's clothing, basically this is to say that Christianity has been overrun by people who have told lies in order to convince others to join them (2 Peter 2:3). So it is literally impossible now for any person to go into the Christian religion without encountering some false doctrines and wolves in sheep's clothing - they are everywhere! Furthermore, many people, because they love God so much and they rather have peace with their fellow man so that they can join in worship to God, these ones might choose to concede to a false doctrine and believe a lie even though it doesn't make sense to them, just to take away the intensity of the dispute. Someone who is new to Christianity will often feel that it isn't their place to argue with a greater number of more experienced Christians, and in this way, their flame is quenched (Ephesians 4:14, Ephesians 5:6). But nevertheless, God knows their heart, that they have believed falsehoods for genuinely good reasons, and they are owed some mercy for that in the judgement.

On the other hand, are people who will not compromise their conviction of righteousness (eg: many atheists cannot subject themselves to what seems to be plain immorality or a logical inconsistency with the character of God. For instance, is it really justice and love, that an innocent one should die for a guilty one, because it will subdue the anger caused by the errors of the guilty one?). These ones, who have integrity to their conscience and choose to disbelieve false teachers, will often end up being cursed by that false teacher as they go ("oh, well then if you don't believe the gospel even after I have told you, then you deserve to burn in hell. Bye bye :wave:"). That hurts people, you know? And it's really not very fair either, because they still have not really understood the gospel! Even though they haven't had sufficient opportunity to learn and understand the mechanism of salvation, now that they have been hurt in Jesus' name, they are going around with a predetermined objection to Christianity! .. so, there is rightfully some mercy owed to that on in the judgement too.

Can you see a common motif in these examples, that God's judgements are true and just? (ie, Revelation 19:1-2).

Furthermore, when we read about the final judgement in Matthew 25:31-46, it isn't mentioned that those who go into eternal life are judged worthy because they believed the gospel. Rather, they are judged worthy because they lived a life of love (fyi: 1 John 4:7-8).

"I have other sheep that are not of this fold, and they will follow me too. I must bring them also." - Jesus Christ.

Those who went into eternal damnation are condemned because they refused to do what love would have had them do (Matthew 25:42-43). Also, you might consider the warning given in Matthew 7:21-23.

I would like you to consider the wisdom of Jeremiah 9 as it applies to your pursuit of salvation and having a personal relationship with God.
I also kind of understand what you were saying about suffering but what did a child ever do they are pure of heart surely they can be spared.
This is right. This is why parents have such huge responsibility. King Soloman notes: God has made man straight, but man has sought out many devices. (Ecclesiastes 7:29). Jesus says that unless we turn and become again as little children, we can not enter the Kingdom of Heaven. He says that the Kingdom of Heaven belongs t the such as the little ones, therefore don't despise them. I actually wrote quite good detail about that a few days ago, and how a child goes from being innocent to needing to be born again (note: death spread to all men, because all sinned). You would find an interesting read here: Faith & Believe Help
Sorry I am rambling a bit. For some reason when I think about this subject my mind jumps about which is so unlike me as I am very scientific about things usually.
Thank you for asking! Many will be called but few will be chosen.
 
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Hi,

I have a problem and I am hoping this community can help. I wholeheartedly want to believe in a God. The Christian God I am most familiar with as went to a catholic school growing up and my parents were born again and I even attended the church in my teens (I am now 36).

A bit about me. I am a thinker and if I am curious about something I can not let it go until I find the answer. Always, been inquisitive and if I decide to learn something I will learn it inside and out.

When I was a teen I attended a church and I think I was generally accepted until I started to ask questions. They would say things like "You just have to accept this on faith" and because of the way I am (right or wrong) I just could not accept this. I had an extremely good relationship with my Grand Parents and they taught me from an early age to question everything. Now I am not sure if this caused them to see me as trouble but honestly, I wasn't, I just had this need for answers.

Anyway, at the age of 15, I met my wife to be and to cut a long story short I ended up having a pastor visit our house and basically accuse us of doing things which we were not. At this point, I never went back again as I just felt like I was being judged. In truth, it was that event that put me on a path where I turned away and never stepped foot in a church since.

Later in life, i lost the most important person in my life (my Nanna) to cancer and this made me question further and I was in a dark place for a decade. I have since lost my grandfather and for some reason, I started to be able to grief and wondered if I was getting a helping hand so to speak. At this point in my life, I was bordering on wanting to believe and my wife was a flat out non-believer.

We now have two kids but had two really bad miscarriages one before each pregnancy. This actually brought my wife to God who is a strong believer (but does not attend church as she feel they judge because of our earlier experience as she went to the same church).

I would say the pain of these miscarriages turned me back the other was and I was really angry.

Fast forward to now. I have two amazing children and they have changed my whole life. Before them it is like i saw life in black and white and when my first son was born it was like I saw in color for the first time. It has really changed me and I feel things so much more now (which is hard for me as a man as my family really don't do feelings). So now if I see suffering on the tv or in the street it really affects me and I want to help. Its not that I didn't want to help before as if I noticed I would always help but not I feel compelled, if that makes sense.

So now my question.

I really really really want to 100% be a believer but my mind has questions which cant be answered or I may read something in the bible and I am like no way is that true etc. I believe the bible was written by a man ultimately so you can not take everything as gospel (parden the pun).

Its like I need to believe, its hard to explain but I just can't and when I try my mind asks things like what about all the suffering etc the usual stuff.

My intention is really not to offend and if I have with anything I write I am sorry. Please help.

I am sorry for the really long post and if it is in the wrong place.

Welcome SW501 & welcome to CF!

Yes, the Bible is Christianity's holy book, the very Word of God. If the Bible is true, then Christianity is true and the God described within it's pages is real, is Who He says He is and can be trusted. Have you looked into the validity of the Bible?

There are many testaments to the validity of the Scriptures. The unity of the Scriptures is one such testament. The Bible was written over a period of 1,600 years, by 40 God chosen men, who lived on multiple continents and they all wrote about the same thing, man's sin and his need for the savior, Jesus Christ. There were no mail delivery trucks, no drop ship planes, no Federal Express, no UPS and no email, yet when all of the writings were put together they present one unified message. The Bible is truly the Word of God.

Following are many other areas that attest to the validity of the Scriptures.

An excellent ebook on the subject: http://www.apologeticspress.org/pdfs/e-books_pdf/idobi.pdf

Proof of Textual Evidence
Old Testament: The Dead Sea Scrolls and Biblical Integrity
New Testament: Manuscript evidence for superior New Testament reliability | CARM Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry
More on the Bible: The Bible | CARM Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry

Proof of People Living at the Time of Christ
Non biblical accounts of New Testament events and/or people | CARM Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry
The writings of Josephus mention many biblical people and places | CARM Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry

Proof of Archaeology
Archaeology and the Bible • ChristianAnswers.Net
Biblical Archeology
Archaeological evidence verifying biblical cities | CARM Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry

Proof of Science
Statements Consistent With Paleontology, Astronomy, Meteorology, Biology, Anthropology, Hydrology & Geology, that were made 1,000s of years before science discovered them.
Science and the Bible
Scientific Accuracies of the Bible | CARM Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry
Eternal Productions - 101 Scientific Facts and Foreknowledge

Proof of Prophecy (Messanic & dealing with nations)
Messianic Prophecies
Fulfilled Bible Prophecy Dealing With Nations
Prophecy, the Bible and Jesus | CARM Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry
http://shoreshdavidbrandon.org/pdf/I-Have-A-Friend-Whose-Jewish.pdf (pages 11 & 12 - awesome eBook)
How Do You Know The Bible Is True?

If the Bible is true, then Christianity is true and the God described within it's pages is real, is Who He says He is and can be trusted.
 
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