Faith and authority

Xeno.of.athens

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I’m talking about Church authority where, for example, even though the bible says “ABC” the church can rule “DEF” and compel it’s members to follow or believe the latter instead of the former.
This is, of course, not the case. Where scripture speaks its voice is normative and all that the Church does is present the truth revealed and interpret it for our times and cultures.
Or, as I’m almost beginning to wonder… maybe there is no case where this happens and I’ve got a straw-man understanding of what Tradition means to Catholics. Is there ANY scripture that the Catholic church or tradition has deemed untrustworthy, or not to be followed, or to be ignored, or to be overruled with tradition?
This is a difficult question to answer because there are scriptures that we read and receive as revelation from God and as normative too yet as inadvisable in our times and cultures; one example can be found in the imprecatory psalms, who today would delight in the thought of dashing the heads one one's enemy's children against a rock? So, the church never advises Christians to delight in such a wicked act, even if the act is only imagined rather than carried out. Similar difficulties arise in the genocidal texts of the Old Testament, and even some passages in the New Testament call for attitudes or actions that are deeply disturbing from a moral instruction perspective.
If the answer to all of these is “no” and we’re really just talking here about Catholic tradition as something that ALWAYS loses to scripture when conflicts arise then I’m failing to see how that’s any fundamentally different than my own Presbyterian church.
Well, there is a difference in the content of scripture; Catholics define sacred scripture as having 73 inspired books while the Westminster Confession of Faith is explicit about having 66 and no more. And Catholic Sacred Tradition is seen as never in conflict with holy scripture. Tradition with a capital T is regarded as God's Spirit guided accumulation of answers to issues that arose in God's unfolding of history. The Creeds play a significant role in Catholic teaching and understanding, but that may not be so with Presbyterians who are taught from the WCF and shorter Catechism (some few are also taught from the Larger Catechism, but it can be quite daunting).
 
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fhansen

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I really seek this more as an answer that has always been puzzling to me and not intended to debate if you would be so kind to answer these questions.

(1) Do you feel Constantine was good for the church or bad? Do you feel the world and the emperor embracing the church helped further the church in its spiritual aim or hurt it? Do you feel the spiritual quality of the church was diminished when this happened from the days of the catacombs?
Again, “God uses weak vessels in a messy world to carry His message and that message is the treasure which, if you care to study, has remained the same in basic form.”

It’s primarily the message that counts, whether the messengers are living up to it as well as they should or not. And while no messenger attains sinless perfection in this life, we should at least expect that they’ll do better than the rest of the world in this area. And the fact is that some will take the message and run with it, producing much beautiful fruit, while some may ignore, distort, and even scandalize it.

As to Constantine, those who love to hate the Catholic church mark his time as that when the CC began apostatizing and becoming the Big Bad Catholic Church. Fortunately, the Reformers realized this and rescued the true religion from the gates of hell, albeit some 1200 years later, so God could breathe easier again :rolleyes:. This pop-mythology is based on half-truths and preferential thinking contrived to denounce the teachings of the historic Christian faith, not only Catholicism as it turned out, but the faith as understood in both the east and west as well as the early fathers. The Edict of Milan legitimized all religion, not only Christianity, while Constantine nonetheless favored Christianity himself. But the church never bowed to his positions, voting against Arianism which I believe he supported, at the council he helped convene at Nicaea in order to resolve that controversy. And within the following centuries the church continued to preach and set down, as necessary, solid teachings on the faith. But the church did, now, move from being a persecuted group to an accepted, expanding one. And, yes, I believe God used this for His purposes. But while the message, the body of beliefs, remained intact, whether or not they were always and everywhere taught and expressed so well at any level within the church from leadership to laity, would depend on how well God’s light had affected-and matured-her. And that takes time, in society or this world, as well as in our individual lives. I believe that the church is understanding and beginning to teach the message, the light, more clearly and better than ever now, even as the world is also growing darker in many ways and places.

And the church nonetheless absolutely shined when it came to good fruit. The monasteries preserved what learning existed in the west through the dark ages, eventually developing the educational systems: lower and upper/university. Untold amounts of money and volunteer work would be donated to help the poor, hungry, naked; religious orders would be established, often started by a single figure who inspired many others to join in, dedicated to serving the poor or sick or imprisoned. Thousands of hospitals and orphanages and schools would be built. Altruism on a large scale was virtually put on the map. Justice and order and meaning and goodness and truth and hope and light would be taught as foundational to the universe, in a world that more often than not seemed hostile, chaotic, lost, hopeless, dying. Science and the arts would be increasingly promoted; the pursuit of excellence in general and the betterment of the human condition always held as a central goal.

Now, the church and politics makes strange bedfellows but early on it was looking more and more like God’s kingdom might actually be realizable on planet earth. And without doubt Christianity was an extremely positive force, especially after the fall of the Roman Empire where society and rulerships would become fragmented, in competition, warring, etc. The one solidifying agent was the church, with a common bond of faith that was considered to be essential to everyone and which meant the church could mediate between conflicting kingdoms and interests. These were dark times, much darker and harsher than ours but the faith placed order and justice and goodness at the foundations of it all. Heresy was considered to be a scourge which threatened that very fabric that held everything together. Did the church end up with too much temporal power? Arguably, yes, especially going into the mid to late Middle Ages, and yet without the church, western history, and by virtue of that, world history, would be very different. And abuse of power would arise at times as the church hadn’t yet learned so well that her real power-and treasure, and role - was the sacrificial love that she was shown, and preached, and was meant to model and express. That doesn’t mean that one must tolerate evil- it just means that we must take strides to ensure that we’re not participating in it, or tolerating it, by either commission or omission IOW-and that can be a balancing act in this world we find ourselves in, even for non-denom types whether they like it or not :). Anyway, the church has learned the hard way IMO that the better role for her is that of preacher and influencer rather than even quasi-direct wielder of civil, temporal power even if that power may've welL been used by God, for overall good, for that time that it prevailed. Either way the church will always be in need of renewal, for both leaders and laity, as she teaches, incidentally.
(2) Do you fault the heart then of the Desert Fathers who separated themselves to the Desert when the rush of the world came in?
Not at all, they have their place in the church. We’re called to varying vocations in varying times. They served in prayer and deepened insights into the faith-and as models showing that worldly pursuits are ultimately empty and futile. And as their pratices evolved into monastery life much more fruit was produced there as well.
 
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timothyu

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Anyway, the church has learned the hard way IMO that the better role for her is that of preacher and influencer rather than even quasi-direct wielder of civil, temporal power
I like your well thought out post but this last statement caused me to pause. I don't think we have reached this point yet., especially when the church has just given it's blessing to the WEF, another human institution claiming to represent world authourity, not of or resembling the Kingdom in any way shape or form. It has simply pulled another Constantine in whoring itself to the will of man.
 
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Brad D.

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Not at all, they have their place in the church. We’re called to varying vocations in varying times. They served in prayer and deepened insights into the faith-and as models showing that worldly pursuits are ultimately empty and futile. And as their pratices evolved into monastery life much more fruit was produced there as well.

I really appreciate the time you took to answer me. I appreciate the above comment the most. I myself feel I can identify with this calling of prayer, quietness, denial (the cross), and insights into the deeper life.

I have been blessed to read some of the insights of catholic writers of the past. The mystics came to me at a particular time in my life about 20 years ago to help me define what God was bringing me into when I didn't even know there was a vocation or name for it. I seemed to be flipping the pages in reading some of their content of the very pages of my own life and His dealings with me.

I was always perplexed then when some of the writers such as Saint John of the Cross, Madame Guyon and even Fenelon to a lesser degree were thrown into jail under horrendous conditions or punished to a lesser extent for simply exhibiting some of the best the Lord could do in a person, and the best the Catholic church had to offer. To that extent there has always seemed to me to be 2 parallel catholic churches emerging through the history books at any given time. Even Brother Lawrence who was not punished, out of respect went through the rituals, but never found the life of God in them, He came to His own methods and into the presence of God.

Even to this day, it seems the Catholic Church like all the rest of Christianity is divided amongst itself. I don't know much at all about this pope or the state of Catholicism in general, but he seems even amongst Catholics to be entangling whatever is left of the better things, with the things, ways and influences of this world. Even to the disintegration of the church it seems, from what a good portion of Catholics believe. But I could be wrong?

Anyway thanks again. You seem like a person who has found your faith and believes what you believe. It seems like the Catholic Church is where you will always feel you can live that out best. I commend you for your convictions. As for me I will have to remain out in the Desert with the Desert Fathers for now, in quietness, trust and prayer. God Bless!
 
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fhansen

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I really appreciate the time you took to answer me. I appreciate the above comment the most. I myself feel I can identify with this calling of prayer, quietness, denial (the cross), and insights into the deeper life.

I have been blessed to read some of the insights of catholic writers of the past. The mystics came to me at a particular time in my life about 20 years ago to help me define what God was bringing me into when I didn't even know there was a vocation or name for it. I seemed to be flipping the pages in reading some of their content of the very pages of my own life and His dealings with me.

I was always perplexed then when some of the writers such as Saint John of the Cross, Madame Guyon and even Fenelon to a lesser degree were thrown into jail under horrendous conditions or punished to a lesser extent for simply exhibiting some of the best the Lord could do in a person, and the best the Catholic church had to offer. To that extent there has always seemed to me to be 2 parallel catholic churches emerging through the history books at any given time. Even Brother Lawrence who was not punished, out of respect went through the rituals, but never found the life of God in them, He came to His own methods and into the presence of God.

Even to this day, it seems the Catholic Church like all the rest of Christianity is divided amongst itself. I don't know much at all about this pope or the state of Catholicism in general, but he seems even amongst Catholics to be entangling whatever is left of the better things, with the things, ways and influences of this world. Even to the disintegration of the church it seems, from what a good portion of Catholics believe. But I could be wrong?

Anyway thanks again. You seem like a person who has found your faith and believes what you believe. It seems like the Catholic Church is where you will always feel you can live that out best. I commend you for your convictions. As for me I will have to remain out in the Desert with the Desert Fathers for now, in quietness, trust and prayer. God Bless!
Thank you. For myself, at the end of the day there was simply nowhere else to go. Protestantism to me is simply an offshoot of the church, imperfectly connected but still connected. Disagreements will always abound when more than one person are present (well, we even argue with ourselves at times :)) but my research had to do with official church teachings, not commenatry from this Catholic or that including even the pope who we'd hope is always teaching solid Catholicism but isn't guaranteed to do so. Only while making an "ex cathedra" statement setting down offical church dogma regarding faith and morals is the office of the papacy considered to be inffallibly utilized for the purpose of maintaining the faith accurately, similar to how a Chrsitian may believe they're being guided by the Holy Spirit when they read the bible. And this is a very rare occurence in church history. Meanwhile church teachings, themselves, form a unified body of beliefs that can be accessed easily, first of all via the catechsim.

As far as St John of the Cross, one of my heros of the faith along with St Teresa of Avila, his contemporary and friend, saints aren't necessarily recognized and accepted as such at first, possibly not until after death. Often they tend to be mavericks, just because they've taken the faith more seriously than most, and are looked upon with suspicion at first by "normal" and more mundane folk, including church leaders, ironically perhaps. His experiences and contributions to better understanding the faith became highly valued by the church eventually such that he was later, posthumously, named a Doctor of the Church, along with Teresa, a very high honor in that world.
 
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fhansen

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I like your well thought out post but this last statement caused me to pause. I don't think we have reached this point yet., especially when the church has just given it's blessing to the WEF, another human institution claiming to represent world authourity, not of or resembling the Kingdom in any way shape or form. It has simply pulled another Constantine in whoring itself to the will of man.
The Catholic Church will always be about the promotion of the dignity of human beings in a world that selfishly often dismisses and attacks it, and the related betterment of living conditions which also include environmental issues as understood these days. Her mandate is to start at the local level, a concept called “subsidiarity” where no appeal to outside help or interference from larger entities or general bodies should be made unless the ability at the local level is exhausted. Global efforts are not necessarily bad in themselves, however, even though motives by anyone must always be scrutinized. Catholic Relief Services, a worldwide non-profit relief organization, has one of the highest ratings for getting the job done in giving aid for each dollar donated. Anyway, that's not whoring but just a matter of living in a messed up world where one must roll up their sleeves and try to be a positive force at times rather than isolating and hiding behind their religious platitudes without contributing much.

When the CC began participating in the WEF meetings the idea was to have “constructive engagement” in order to help direct the orientation towards right standards if possible. And it never whored to Constantine if you know history at all; being allowed to exist is not the equivalent of whoring, as pagan religions were also given that same right and privilege at the time. But whether Francis is right in his efforts in the organization or not remains to be seen. Meanwhile not all Catholics are thrilled about many of Francis’s actions to begin with but so far he hasn’t altered official Church teachings, the office of the papacy considered to be free from negatively affecting those.
 
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QvQ

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When the CC began participating in the WEF meetings the idea was to have “constructive engagement” in order to help direct the orientation towards right standards if possible. And it never whored to Constantine if you know history at all; being allowed to exist is not the equivalent of whoring, as pagan religions were also given that same right and privilege at the time.
The difference between taxes and tithes is the primary issue in separation of Church and State.
Central planning and disposal of other peoples money and property without the consent of the individual whatever the noble goal is a serious bad idea.
The Church should not join but should oppose any organization who attempts to organize other people's money or property without consent of the governed. Who voted for WEF?
Joining in these organization appears to be a base attempt to get a hand in the pot, even if the hand is supposedly for "right standards."
 
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GodsGrace101

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Note: this thread is a branching of the discussion here between @fhansen, myself, and indirectly many others. All are welcome of course, but be forewarned, if you don't at least have a 14-inch beard as long as Calvin's then I will automatically presume you are incorrect, always, in everything.

Okay, in terms of authority then, let me walk through some scenarios and you can kindly tell me where you disagree:
  1. The bible says "ABC is true", unambiguously. Do you look to anyone before you believe it? My answer: No.
  2. The bible says "ABC is true", unambiguously, but some guy with a pointy hat / Scottish accent / sub-14-inch beard says "ABC is not true".

LOL
  1. Who do you believe? My answer: I am free to review his claim, measuring his reasoning (ideally he cited scripture and it isn't just a novel, unsupported theory). Ultimately I am free to decide if I accept his claim, or reject it and stand by the bible's position. Certainly if he had no scriptural citations then I would at best put his claim into something like a "good theory but biblically unsupported" bucket, and I would argue his claim to others with tentativeness, knowing that the claim is on extremely shaky ground.
  2. Same as scenario 2, except not even a biblical claim - so it's just pure theory on behalf of the interlocutor. I guess here I could have just combined this with scenario 2, since I think my thought process would be identical, boiling down to the veracity of his claim. Lurking behind both of these scenarios is my own freedom to accept or reject, and acknowledging that this opens me up to judging incorrectly. But it also puts the onus of argumentation on the interlocutor and thus compels him to be clear, precise and convincing. The converse error would be that I am forced to believe his claim because he is sprinkled with Fairy Dust of Authority. Only my bible is sprinkled with Fairy Dust. And possibly has a picture of a unicorn on the cover, but that's for a separate discussion...
My two cents at least...
I believe the bible.
Trouble is, it has to be correctly interpreted.

How can we know it's correctly interpreted?
Because the bible is one, whole idea.
Not a bunch of verses.
Of course we use these verses to support our posts,
but the bible cannot contradict itself.

For instance, Isaiah states that God created evil/calamity.
Same difference.
How can this be when the rest of scripture states that God is:
LOVING
MERCIFUL
JUST
Surely it must mean something different?

For instance, we find the word PREDESTINATION in the NT.
Would a
LOVING
MERCIFUL
JUST
God choose whom to save and whom to damn?
Surely it must mean something else.

BTW, I don't have any beard so I'll have to disagree with Mr. Calvin at every turn!
 
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GodsGrace101

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Folks can babble on and debate forever, which we tend to do, but much babbling erupted with the Reformation, often from and between the Reformers, and in any case salvation has always been seen as a journey, one that begins with grace, promoting faith, resulting in justification as we enter union with God, the source of justice/righteousness for man. This is the beginning of our salvation, not the end.

There's no technical difference between justification and sanctification- sanctification is simply the continuation of the process begun at justification that has it's end in eternal life. The novel error of the reformers was to separate being made righteous from actually being rightoeus, with a declared righteousness now sufficient to make us right-and salvageable-in the eyes of God. But that, then, prompts a discussion on whether or not we can sin wantonly and still enter heaven, with all kinds of answers forthcoming on that one. But in truth, justification plants a seed of righteousness, grace, the life of God in us, and that must be embraced, expressed, invested, and grown, maturing into eternal life as best possible in whatever time we have. So the church can teach:

1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus' proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.

1995 The Holy Spirit is the master of the interior life. By giving birth to the "inner man," justification entails the sanctification of his whole being:

Just as you once yielded your members to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness for sanctification. . . . But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life. Rom 6:19,22
Just want to say that sanctification is just called ongoing justification in the CC...but yes, it means the same.

The important point you hit on, IMO, is that the reformation began the idea that we are imputed righteousness through Jesus as if we had nothing further to do.

I do believe we are imputed this righteousness at Justification...
However it must be maintained and the idea of ON-GOING JUSTIFICATION does seem to me to explain it better.
But it is a technical nuance that should not even be debated...
except it might make some feel that sin is ok since they're saved.
Charles Stanley states this plainly.
 
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Mark Quayle

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The important point you hit on, IMO, is that the reformation began the idea that we are imputed righteousness through Jesus as if we had nothing further to do.
Hope you don't mind if I take a bit of exception to this statement. I don't think the reformation began any idea that implies we have nothing further to do, except in the fact of regeneration itself. Even OSAS (which to my knowledge is not a reformation statement as such) doesn't imply it. It is those who infer it, that think it is implied.
I do believe we are imputed this righteousness at Justification...
However it must be maintained and the idea of ON-GOING JUSTIFICATION does seem to me to explain it better.
But it is a technical nuance that should not even be debated...
I mean you no disrespect; that is, I hope you don't mean this quite the way it sounds to me: "Maintained"?? The righteousness imputed to us was accomplished by Christ, imputed by God, just as surely a done deal as is our very salvation. Our subsequent obedience and growth in Christ, our perseverance, perhaps you can call maintained. But they do not maintain what has been imputed to us. If we continue in sin, it was never imputed to us to begin with.
 
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GodsGrace101

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Hope you don't mind if I take a bit of exception to this statement. I don't think the reformation began any idea that implies we have nothing further to do, except in the fact of regeneration itself. Even OSAS (which to my knowledge is not a reformation statement as such) doesn't imply it. It is those who infer it, that think it is implied.

I mean you no disrespect; that is, I hope you don't mean this quite the way it sounds to me: "Maintained"?? The righteousness imputed to us was accomplished by Christ, imputed by God, just as surely a done deal as is our very salvation. Our subsequent obedience and growth in Christ, our perseverance, perhaps you can call maintained. But they do not maintain what has been imputed to us. If we continue in sin, it was never imputed to us to begin with.
So you do believe in OSAS?
Which is called Preservation of the Saints, or eternal security.
What I call maintained is that we have to live our life accordingly.
According to God's commandments.
With the help of the Holy Spirit.
If our life does not show our belief system, what good is it?
 
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timothyu

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It's good that one's life should show his belief in God, right?
Absolutely! But we see examples all the time of those in leadership in Christianity who spout what we should believe but don't follow it themselves. They run a business. It's been going on since Christianity incorporated with the Empire and probably before.
 
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GodsGrace101

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Absolutely! But we see examples all the time of those in leadership in Christianity who spout what we should believe but don't follow it themselves. They run a business. It's been going on since Christianity incorporated with the Empire and probably before.
Oh.
I agree.
But we'll leave them to God's justice.
Jesus even spoke to this:
He said to do as the Pharisees taught the Jews,
NOT as the Pharisees did. It's been going on forever.
Matthew 23:3
3So practice and obey whatever they tell you, but don’t follow their example. For they don’t practice what they teach.
 
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Mark Quayle

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So you do believe in OSAS?
Which is called Preservation of the Saints, or eternal security.
What I call maintained is that we have to live our life accordingly.
According to God's commandments.
With the help of the Holy Spirit.
If our life does not show our belief system, what good is it?
Thanks, but I've had enough of this for now. I'm tired of it.
 
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The bible says "ABC is true", unambiguously. Do you look to anyone before you believe it? My answer: No.
I'm struggling right here. What Bible are we using? One in English? Who translated it? How did they determine which manuscript to use for different verses? I'm not sure with so much separation between us and the autographs its possible to claim that anything is "unambiguous" in the Bible, as even if it was in the original languages the fact that much of our translation requires language reconstruction and a great deal of editorial decisions in the process ambiguity isn't going to be introduced at some point. Is there even a single verse that every reader agrees means the same thing, regardless of translation?
 
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Note: this thread is a branching of the discussion here between @fhansen, myself, and indirectly many others. All are welcome of course, but be forewarned, if you don't at least have a 14-inch beard as long as Calvin's then I will automatically presume you are incorrect, always, in everything.

Okay, in terms of authority then, let me walk through some scenarios and you can kindly tell me where you disagree:
  1. The bible says "ABC is true", unambiguously. Do you look to anyone before you believe it? My answer: No.
  2. The bible says "ABC is true", unambiguously, but some guy with a pointy hat / Scottish accent / sub-14-inch beard says "ABC is not true". Who do you believe? My answer: I am free to review his claim, measuring his reasoning (ideally he cited scripture and it isn't just a novel, unsupported theory). Ultimately I am free to decide if I accept his claim, or reject it and stand by the bible's position. Certainly if he had no scriptural citations then I would at best put his claim into something like a "good theory but biblically unsupported" bucket, and I would argue his claim to others with tentativeness, knowing that the claim is on extremely shaky ground.
  3. Same as scenario 2, except not even a biblical claim - so it's just pure theory on behalf of the interlocutor. I guess here I could have just combined this with scenario 2, since I think my thought process would be identical, boiling down to the veracity of his claim. Lurking behind both of these scenarios is my own freedom to accept or reject, and acknowledging that this opens me up to judging incorrectly. But it also puts the onus of argumentation on the interlocutor and thus compels him to be clear, precise and convincing. The converse error would be that I am forced to believe his claim because he is sprinkled with Fairy Dust of Authority. Only my bible is sprinkled with Fairy Dust. And possibly has a picture of a unicorn on the cover, but that's for a separate discussion...
My two cents at least...
Basically, if we don't accept the content of the Bible as true, then we have no grounds for believing in any of salvation promises. This leaves us with a sense of hoping for the best when we die, without any assurance of salvation at all. Even though Paul did say, "If we have hope just in this life only, we are of all people the most miserable". But if we don't believe what the Bible says, we can't even believe what Paul has said either!
 
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Brother-Mike

Predetermined to freely believe
Aug 16, 2022
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Basically, if we don't accept the content of the Bible as true, then we have no grounds for believing in any of salvation promises. This leaves us with a sense of hoping for the best when we die, without any assurance of salvation at all. Even though Paul did say, "If we have hope just in this life only, we are of all people the most miserable". But if we don't believe what the Bible says, we can't even believe what Paul has said either!
My heuristics are simple:
  1. I accept the entire Bible as inerrant.
  2. If I encounter passages that are complex, or seemingly contradictory or appear grossly misaligned with Christian ethics, my default position is to delve deeper with commentaries and scholarly analysis. I do not default to the presumption that my sinful, worldly judgement trumps the Word of God.
  3. Beyond the Bible, all third-party opinions and commentary are treated as information sources that may illuminate the Word of God to me. John Calvin, or a Buddhist monk, or the Pope, or an Apocryphal text are all granted equal footing as information sources, and the usefulness and validity of their contents are measured by the degree to which they resonate and support themselves against scripture. If Satan himself delivers a lecture on the nature of the Gospel I'll be there with bells on in front row taking notes.
 
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