Faith Alone

Do you believe that faith alone justifies?

  • Yes

    Votes: 25 65.8%
  • No

    Votes: 13 34.2%

  • Total voters
    38

Guojing

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It is difficult. That is why the Scripture says that the way to eternal life is narrow and few there be who find it.

Look at the mega-churches that draw the big crowds. Listen to and view what they preach. They preach that Jesus can be your friend, who will heal and make you healthy and make you prosperous. They will have exciting services with great performance-based music to cater for the emotions and that nice feeling of well-being. Jesus had great crowds following Him because of the healings, and the miracles where 5000 were fed.

But as soon as Jesus said that people need to identify with His death (ie: eat His flesh and drink His blood) most of the crowd left Him and melted away. Why? They were there for the goodies, but as soon as a real commitment was needed that might threaten the comfort zone and to be identified with a suffering and dying Saviour, they said, "No thanks! We want the good life. We don't want to know about death and tribulation".

You will find that the preaching of the gospel where to be a true disciple one has to be content with persecution, poverty, sickness, going hungry, and even death, because of their commitment to Jesus who died on the cross for their sins, and that the servant is no better than his Master, and that they might have to follow in His footsteps, even to death (as did all the Apostles except John), a church would be lucky to attract more than just a couple of hundred people to it.

We would all like to be like the apostle Paul, but would be put off when he describes what he had to go through in his commitment to Christ. He lists them all, and it is not pleasant reading.

That is why genuine believers are a minority, because most, although they enjoy their exciting religion full of promises of health, prosperity and happiness, they don't want to go down path where they might experience ill health, poverty, persecution, battles against Satan and his demons, and possibly having to give their lives for the faith, as many have done in Muslim and Communist countries.

Even today on CF I saw that a pastor in the Philippines was murdered because of his faith. How would you like to be a pastor in that country? Not many mega-churches having hallelujah hootenannys in Iran or Saudi Arabia. I wonder why? People would be too scared to go to those very public churches. Most true believers in those countries are underground and worship secretly and quietly just to keep themselves from being killed for their faith!

That is why genuine Christianity is a minority, because it takes a high level of courage, perseverance and commitment, even to the giving up of life to be a true believer in Christ.

Jesus was preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom to the Jews only, so please don't put yourself under that instruction.

But because the Jewish nation rejected that Messiah, Jesus raised Paul to deliver a new Gospel of Grace to us Gentiles. He made it so easy for us Gentiles to be saved, apart from works, because of that purpose, to make the Jews jealous.

Romans 9-11 has the details.
 
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Kenny'sID

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I don't understand why you are relating an objective discussion about whether or not faith alone in Christ is sufficient for justification subjectively to yourself, as if I am speaking directly about your standing with Christ.

The simple definition of a hypocrite is a person who says they are something they are not. Simple. The example I gave was a person who appears to be an angel at church but is a devil at home.

I drew the distinction between a person who has "got religion" through easy believerism, as if saying a prayer at the altar of a church actually gave them salvation. That's not faith in Christ at all. Salvation is not a matter of deciding to adopt the Christian religion, attend church, be involved in Christian work, live a moral life, be kind to animals, be concerned about the planet, and talk Christian talk. The same person could rise to become a deacon, pastor, or even a bishop! In actual fact, those things are not the core of embracing Christ, although they are the actions of a person who has embraced Christ - but they call all be the actions of a rank hypocrite as well!

Actually, and adulterer, murderer, and thief can all dress in the same three-piece suit as an honest, godly, genuine Christian believer, and so by appearance, one would not be able to tell them apart by appearances. Also, they can all be great church members and respected by all on Sundays at church, but their actions are very different when out of the public view. That is why hypocrites make every effort to appear to be very committed Christians, when, in reality, they are not.

The spooky thing is that we cannot tell the difference, because we cannot see into the heart of a person. Only God can.

It is impossible to be a genuine believer in Christ without coming to the full realisation of one's own absolute sinfulness, that he is a rebel, an enemy of God, a slave to sin, without hope, deserving of the full wrath of God and of a final future in hell. Also, there can be no salvation for the sinner unless there is a treaty between the sinner and God, involving the condition that the sinner puts his full faith and trust in the finished work of Christ and agrees to allow the Holy Spirit to take hold of his life so he can live for the glory of God.

If a person who thinks he has some good in him and some worthiness for God to accept him into the family of faith, which many who join the Christian do, and then wonder why it doesn't work satisfactorily for them, it is because he has come over the wall of easy believerism instead of through the narrow gate.

An "easy believer" will decide that the Christian life will be good for him, and he will saunter up to the altar, say a prayer and all will be well for him. But there will be no change of heart, and outside of the view of his fellow Christians, he will get on with his old life as before with its lusts. This is because he thinks he can have faith, which is not faith at all, but merely a mental belief and assent to the principles of Christianity.

The narrow gate is only shown to those who know they are absolute, hopeless, helpless sinners and enemies of God, deserving of wrath and hell. It is this realisation that causes a person to groan, pray, and cry out to God for mercy. It is only then when someone shows them the way to Christ, that it is the best news they have ever heard in his life. He then throws himself on Christ as his Saviour, and pleads for the assurance of salvation. It took John Bunyan eight years from the time he first threw himself upon Christ, until he received full assurance of salvation from the Holy Spirit.

This is why the way to salvation is a narrow gate and few there be who find it. This is because realising the depth and seriousness of sin and one's total unworthiness to receive anything from God is too difficult for many to consider, so they avoid that process and go the easy believer way in the hope that they will gain salvation anyway.

I ask simple questions, and you play games, no direct answers to any of them. Though that fact alone tells me plenty, once again, debate is impossible when an opposing side refuses to be clear, and that is what osas does, and does often. Aside from the following quote, there is nothing new here but the usual I just mentioned, so it's clear you aren't interested in honest/straight forward debate that includes proof of points.

The narrow gate is only shown to those who know they are absolute, hopeless, helpless sinners and enemies of God, deserving of wrath and hell.

Substantiating scripture, please?

That is not something you got from the bible in any way shape or form, it is something you learned/was made up by men in order to attempt to do away with a scripture that ruins OSAS, or...to do away with the truth. Actually, I haven't a clue how the one who first made that up expected anyone, with the exception of those who choose to be deluded, to even consider it to be a fact. There's just nothing at all to back it up. And yes, I'll say it again, such obvious twisting of the scripture with no proof whatsoever it is viable is the only way to make OSAS "seem" to work, and you just gave us a whopper of an example of that.

I asked you to show me (directly, no games), where the bible substantiates that claim but I know perfectly well, you not only won't do it, but you cannot. But hey, surprise me, I'm listening.

Here is why I ask, it takes a breaking down of such claims/points in order to get to the bottom of each side in this, that is logical procedure anyway, but OSAS consistently refuses to do that when it comes right down to the tough concerns. Also, It actually baffles me how anyone can expect anyone to believe something such as that when there is no proof it is a fact? At best, that can only sooth those already lulled to sleep, who choose to believe such things in order to help them to remain asleep.

As brinny might say, just another big fat WOW burger. :)
 
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Kenny'sID

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No matter how you slice it, it always comes out to mean the same exact thing. Does anyone not believe the following? Anyone care to try to interpret such simplicity into meaning we don't need works?

For those who say works aren't flat out required, no doubt about it, how do you justify that after reading the following?

Verse
(Click for Chapter)
New International Version
You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

New Living Translation
So you see, we are shown to be right with God by what we do, not by faith alone.

English Standard Version
You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Berean Study Bible
As you can see, a man is justified by his deeds and not by faith alone.

Berean Literal Bible
You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone.

New American Standard Bible
You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

King James Bible
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Christian Standard Bible
You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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I ask simple questions, and you play games, no direct answers to any of them. Though that fact alone tells me plenty, once again, debate is impossible when an opposing side refuses to be clear, and that is what osas does, and does often. Aside from the following quote, there is nothing new here but the usual I just mentioned, so it's clear you aren't interested in honest/straight forward debate that includes proof of points.



Substantiating scripture, please?

That is not something you got from the bible in any way shape or form, it is something you learned/was made up by men in order to attempt to do away with a scripture that ruins OSAS, or...to do away with the truth. Actually, I haven't a clue how the one who first made that up expected anyone, with the exception of those who choose to be deluded, to even consider it to be a fact. There's just nothing at all to back it up. And yes, I'll say it again, such obvious twisting of the scripture with no proof whatsoever it is viable is the only way to make OSAS "seem" to work, and you just gave us a whopper of an example of that.

I asked you to show me (directly, no games), where the bible substantiates that claim but I know perfectly well, you not only won't do it, but you cannot. But hey, surprise me, I'm listening.

Here is why I ask, it takes a breaking down of such claims/points in order to get to the bottom of each side in this, that is logical procedure anyway, but OSAS consistently refuses to do that when it comes right down to the tough concerns. Also, It actually baffles me how anyone can expect anyone to believe something such as that when there is no proof it is a fact? At best, that can only sooth those already lulled to sleep, who choose to believe such things in order to help them to remain asleep.

As brinny might say, just another big fat WOW burger. :)
The first chapters of Romans explains it quite clearly.
Galatians clearly points out how we need to base our faith on Christ alone for justification.
 
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Guojing

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No matter how you slice it, it always comes out to mean the same exact thing. Does anyone not believe the following? Anyone care to try to interpret such simplicity into meaning we don't need works?

For those who say works aren't flat out required, no doubt about it, how do you justify that after reading the following?

Verse
(Click for Chapter)
New International Version
You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

New Living Translation
So you see, we are shown to be right with God by what we do, not by faith alone.

English Standard Version
You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Berean Study Bible
As you can see, a man is justified by his deeds and not by faith alone.

Berean Literal Bible
You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone.

New American Standard Bible
You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

King James Bible
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Christian Standard Bible
You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

When you start of with the assumption that "Paul and James must be in complete agreement since their letters are both in the NT", you have all kinds of ways to force James to say what he did not literally say.

You have to assume that James was such a bad communicator that he would need us to try to explain for him what he means =)
 
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Kenny'sID

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When you start of with the assumption that "Paul and James must be in complete agreement since their letters are both in the NT", you have all kinds of ways to force James to say what he did not literally say.

You have to assume that James was such a bad communicator that he would need us to try to explain for him what he means =)

I'd love to look into that and see if I can see it that way, but I'll need help.

In the verse I quoted, what did James mean exactly? IOW, what was the correct understanding of the mentioned verse? If it was communicated wrongly, there must be a right understanding of what he was trying to say. Also are there other scriptures to back the supposed fact James didn't communicate correctly, and if so, where are they, and can you give us an idea where he messed up, and what he actually meant by his comments?
 
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Guojing

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I'd love to look into that and see if I can see it that way, but I'll need help.

In the verse I quoted, what did James mean exactly? IOW, what was the correct understanding of the mentioned verse? If it was communicated wrongly, there must be a right understanding of what he was trying to say. Also are there other scriptures to back the supposed fact James didn't communicate correctly, and if so, where are they, and can you give us an idea where he messed up, and what he actually meant by his comments?

When Christians have a pre-existing beliefs that contradict the literal reading of any bible passage, we often are led to resort to using allegories or to spiritualize what the verses stated. Pastors who preach the word in the pulpit are fond of doing that.

For me, I prefer to take a literal interpretation of scripture, taking context into account. So I agree with you there, James means exactly what he is saying, that one is justified not merely by believing in Jesus, they need to keep the Law.

Otherwise, what went down between James and Paul in Acts 21 makes no sense.
 
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Kenny'sID

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When Christians have a pre-existing beliefs that contradict the literal reading of any bible passage, we often are led to resort to using allegories or to spiritualize what the verses stated. Pastors who preach the word in the pulpit are fond of doing that.

For me, I prefer to take a literal interpretation of scripture, taking context into account. So I agree with you there, James means exactly what he is saying, that one is justified not merely by believing in Jesus, they need to keep the Law.

Otherwise, what went down between James and Paul in Acts 21 makes no sense.

Agree, and I know this is a fairly popular argument, but they would have to prove it out James had this problem in order for me buy it, but thus far, it's just talk, just as faith only is...talk without walk.
 
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Guojing

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Agree, and I know this is a fairly popular argument, but they would have to prove it out James had this problem in order for me buy it, but thus far, it's just talk, just as faith only is...talk without walk.

But, I have to burst your bubble by reminding all that James was not talking to the Gentiles there.

James 1:1 as well as Acts 21:25 both mentioned that James is only addressing the Jews, and he is fine with Gentiles being justified by believing in Jesus's death, burial and resurrection only.
 
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Kenny'sID

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But, I have to burst your bubble by reminding all that James was not talking to the Gentiles there.

James 1:1 as well as Acts 21:25 both mentioned that James is only addressing the Jews, and he is fine with Gentiles being justified by believing in Jesus's death, burial and resurrection only.

How do you draw the conclusion they are fine with faith only for the Gentiles when it states right in the verse you brought up, the Gentiles were sent a letter pointing out the works they should do?

Do I misunderstand your point? Maybe you could tell me what you think my "bubble" is order to help me to better understand your point?

Acts 21:25
English Standard Version
25 But as for the Gentiles who have believed, we have sent a letter with our judgment that they should abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled,4 and from sexual immorality.
 
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Guojing

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How do you draw the conclusion they are fine with faith only for the Gentiles when it states right in the verse you brought up, the Gentiles were sent a letter pointing out the works they should do?

Do I misunderstand your point? Maybe you could tell me what you think my "bubble" is order to help me to better understand your point?

Acts 21:25
English Standard Version
25 But as for the Gentiles who have believed, we have sent a letter with our judgment that they should abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled,4 and from sexual immorality.

Those 4 requirements are more for them to make sure they do not offend the Jewish believers who are among them.

They are clearly not for salvation, unless you actually believe that James actually meant to say that the Gentiles need to follow those 4 rules "in order to be saved".

By the way, you should be using the KJV or at least the NKJV there, because many other versions drop the words "that they should observe no such thing", which clearly change the meaning of verse 25.
 
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Kenny'sID

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Those 4 requirements are more for them to make sure they do not offend the Jewish believers who are among them.

They are clearly not for salvation, unless you actually believe that James actually meant to say that the Gentiles need to follow those 4 rules "in order to be saved".

By the way, you should be using the KJV or at least the NKJV there, because many other versions drop the words "that they should observe no such thing", which clearly change the meaning of verse 25.

OK, I understand now, and you are essentially saying the Gentile are allowed sexually immorality, and should only stay away from it so as not to offend the Jews. Boggles the mind the stretches faith only makes in order to justify their doctrine of choice.

1 Corinthians 6:9–10 Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,[2] 10nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

I find the ESV to be fine here, and my bubble to be fully in tact. :)
 
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Guojing

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OK, I understand now, and you are essentially saying the Gentile are allowed sexually immorality, and should only stay away from it so as not to offend the Jews. Boggles the mind the stretches faith only makes in order to justify their doctrine of choice.

1 Corinthians 6:9–10 Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,[2] 10nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

I find the ESV to be fine here, and my bubble to be fully in tact. :)

It’s okay. People rarely change their minds over discussion with strangers over the internet, esp with regard to religious doctrine. Cheers
 
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