Faith Alone

[redleghunter]

Did anyone notice the trickery in that video? The type trickery one might see the world use. "Faith alone" has a terrible habit of, and seems to need that in order to justify their view.. That fact speaks volumes to me and happens around here all too often.

You mean all the passages Marty offered Frank?

 

[Guojing]

My neighbors and I get along quite well. We help each other and work together in our neighborhood. If I sin against them, I apologize and even make restitution.
How about You?

So do you agree there is no way for you to love them "as you love yourself"?

The law does not allow for "trying your best" aka "quite well", the moment you fall short, you are sinning.

 

[Oldmantook]

So do you agree there is no way for you to love them "as you love yourself"?

The law does not allow for "trying your best" aka "quite well", the moment you fall short, you are sinning.

Of course not. Since Jesus told us to love our neighbors as ourselves, why would he tell us to do something impossible. Your view is nonsensical.

 

[Guojing]

Of course not. Since Jesus told us to love our neighbors as ourselves, why would he tell us to do something impossible. Your view is nonsensical.

We are not instructed to keep the Law.

We are told to believe in Jesus's keeping the Law, for our salvation and justification. Now that the savior has come, the Law has ceased to become our guardian. (Galatians 3:24)

 

[Bible Highlighter]

James states the faith that isn't follow by works is dead, that's another way of saying that that faith isn't present in that person.

"But someone will say, 'You have faith and I have works.' Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works." - James 2:18

Here, James is saying that evidence of faith is found in works. Show me a faith that doesn't produce works? You can't. So, I am justified by works in this way. Do you understand?

Works justify my profession, but faith alone saves.

Faith alone doesn't save because even you admit that a true faith will always have works. The two always go together.

"What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?" (James 2:14).

"Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble." (James 2:19).

James says we are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24).
Do you believe you are justified by faith?
Does being justified by faith relate to salvation?
In James 2:24, James is using the word "justified" to refer to two things.

1. Faith.
2. Works (i.e. works of faith).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Who is claiming that it is a quote from the Bible?

It isn't.

James 2:24 is not a quote from the Bible?

It is a term that was introduced into Christian history in order to describe what the Bible teaches about Faith and Salvation, just as the church used the term "Trinity" to describe the nature of God as it has been revealed in Holy Scripture although the word "Trinity" itself is not used in the Bible.

We are not talking about the Trinity.

James 2:24 says,
"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Of course not. Since Jesus told us to love our neighbors as ourselves, why would he tell us to do something impossible. Your view is nonsensical.

So, if a smelly, lice-ridden, shabbily dressed drunk rolled in through the door of your church, would you greet him as lovingly, and give him a man-hug in the same way as you would when one of your more attractive friends entered the church? Because that old drunk is just as much your neighbour as your familar friend. If you drew back from the old drunk, then you have sinned and come short of Jesus' commandment to love your neighbour as you would love yourself.

 

[Kenny'sID]

You mean all the passages Marty offered Frank?

No, it was the fact they made Frank out to be some space case who cannot be relied upon, making his claims more likely to be untrue. Before we even get to the conversation in the video, just look at them, and tell me Character Assassination was not absolutely intended in order to make their own point "seem" to be the truth. If Marty had a good point/was dealing with the truth, he/the writer of the video shouldn't need to do that...they could defend the truth with the truth, and the truth alone. They actually/unknowingly discredit themselves, and make even Frank look good.

Same ol' story, the common understanding that anything untrue can only be defended by more of the same. The inaccuracy in this case being, the implication by the writer that all who disagree with Marty must be a dippy hippie so they must be wrong.

 

[Kenny'sID]

We are not instructed to keep the Law.

I kinda get the idea we are instructed to love Jesus who said:

John 14:15

If ye love me, keep my commandments.

So, if a smelly, lice-ridden, shabbily dressed drunk rolled in through the door of your church, would you greet him as lovingly, and give him a man-hug in the same way as you would when one of your more attractive friends entered the church? Because that old drunk is just as much your neighbour as your familar friend. If you drew back from the old drunk, then you have sinned and come short of Jesus' commandment to love your neighbour as you would love yourself.

For one, there are those who would greet the drunk favorably as you describe.

But assume they don't, people sin often enough, they then ask forgiveness, do their best to mend their ways and learn from it. That said, not sure what your point is? If it's that we should not sin, then you're correct.

 

[Kenny'sID]

In James 2:24, James is using the word "justified" to refer to two things.

1. Faith.
2. Works (i.e. works of faith).

I think we can add one more to those two.

jus·ti·fied
/ˈjəstəˌfīd/

adjective
adjective: justified

1. 1.
   having, done for, or marked by a good or legitimate reason.
   "the doctors were justified in treating her"
2. 2.
   Theology
   declared or made righteous in the sight of God.

Wouldn't you agree?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I think we can add one more to those two.

jus·ti·fied
/ˈjəstəˌfīd/

adjective
adjective: justified

1. 1.
   having, done for, or marked by a good or legitimate reason.
   "the doctors were justified in treating her"
2. 2.
   Theology
   declared or made righteous in the sight of God.

Wouldn't you agree?

Agreed.

There is only one word in reference to "justified" here. The Belief Alone Proponent will say that they are "justified" by faith in regards to salvation in this sentence, but they are not consistent and they will say that the "justified" is not relation to salvation in reference to "works" in the same sentence. This is why others have tried to seek out another explanation by saying that the book of James was written to Jewish believers and not Gentile believers. Yet, James references New Covenant Law by referring to loving your neighbor as: "the Law of Liberty." Also, Paul says that if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, they are proud, and they know nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). Jesus says that unprofitable servant was cast into outer darkness (Matthew 25:20). Paul says we can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16). So Paul did not teach anything different than James here.

 

[Oldmantook]

We are not instructed to keep the Law.

We are told to believe in Jesus's keeping the Law, for our salvation and justification. Now that the savior has come, the Law has ceased to become our guardian. (Galatians 3:24)

Obeying Jesus is not law-keeping. Did you not read that Jesus himself stated that he did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it?

 

[Kenny'sID]

Agreed.

There is only one word in reference to "justified" here. The Belief Alone Proponent will say that they are "justified" by faith in regards to salvation in this sentence, but they are not consistent and they will say that the "justified" is not relation to salvation in reference to "works" in the same sentence. This is why others have tried to seek out another explanation by saying that the book of James was written to Jewish believers and not Gentile believers. Yet, James references New Covenant Law by referring to loving your neighbor as: "the Law of Liberty." Also, Paul says that if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, they are proud, and they know nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). Jesus says that unprofitable servant was cast into outer darkness (Matthew 25:20). Paul says we can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16). So Paul did not teach anything different than James here.

I also agree.

You debate this long enough with them, and their end of it will fall apart every time.

They know the true answers to certain questions will incriminate them so they simply go silent/skip questions when it comes to answering, and that tells us a lot, and them too for that matter in the unlikely event they choose to see it. But instead of seeing, they attempt to regroup and make matters even worse for themselves. Keep going and then comes the anger out of frustration they can't defend the belief.

The stories I could tell.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I kinda get the idea we are instructed to love Jesus who said:

John 14:15

If ye love me, keep my commandments.



For one, there are those who would greet the drunk favorably as you describe.

But assume they don't, people sin often enough, they then ask forgiveness, do their best to mend their ways and learn from it. That said, not sure what your point is? If it's that we should not sin, then you're correct.

My point is that we would not greet a smelly drunk and treat him in the same way that we would treat a 'respectable' person (if we are being honest about it); therefore we would be discriminatory in the way we love people. Because this would be a violation of the commandment of Christ, it would show that we cannot follow His commandments from our own righteousness. That's why Jesus gave instructions that are basically impossible to follow. It is to show us that no matter how hard we try and sincerely resolve, we will always fall short of being able to perfectly comply with any moral law that is presented to us, either through the Commandments or the teaching of Jesus. If we could, then Jesus would have wasted His time dying for us on the cross, and God giving up His only Son to be our Saviour, a total waste.

There are those on this forum who are telling us that we have to follow the commands of Jesus in order to be saved. What comes to mind is what Jesus said to the Pharisees: "You teach people not to commit adultery, while you yourselves commit adultery!" (my paraphrase). So these ones who insist on compliance with the Law and the commands of Jesus, don't comply themselves!

 

[Guojing]

Obeying Jesus is not law-keeping. Did you not read that Jesus himself stated that he did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it?

But Jesus said the sum total of the Torah is tied to those 2 "greatest" commandments.

 

[watchman 2]

Could someone explain what "Faith alone" means?
Maybe even give an example?

 

[Guojing]

I kinda get the idea we are instructed to love Jesus who said:

John 14:15

If ye love me, keep my commandments.

The Gentiles were never given the Law in the first place. Jesus was only sent to the lost sheep of Israel during the 4 gospels.

We are not even in the picture of salvation, until the Jewish nation rejected their Messiah.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

The Gentiles were never given the Law in the first place. Jesus was only sent to the lost sheep of Israel during the 4 gospels.

We are not even in the picture of salvation, until the Jewish nation rejected their Messiah.

The way a gentile could enter into the picture of salvation was to adopt Judaism and become a God-fearer, such as Cornelius to whom Peter preached the gospel.

 

[Guojing]

The way a gentile could enter into the picture of salvation was to adopt Judaism and become God-believer, such as Cornelius to whom Peter preached the gospel.

That is correct. But by the time of Cornelius, Peter saw that it has changed since for the first time, there was no need for Cornelius to be circumcised and adopt Judaism, yet the Holy Spirit fell on him.

 

[fhansen]

Do you believe that faith alone justifies an individual as righteous in the sight of God?

*by justification, I mean a legal declaration.

"For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law." - Romans 3:28

I think we enter Christ's fold by faith. Then we must live a life worthy of it, or eternal life is in question.