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Featured Faith Alone

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Jonaitis, Aug 9, 2019.

  1. Yes

    25 vote(s)
    65.8%
  2. No

    13 vote(s)
    34.2%
  1. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

    +21,609
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    Yes.

    That's right EXCEPT that if "it" does not...then it isn't really Faith.

    That was the big point that James was making about people who said that they were disciples of Christ but nothing in their lives seemed to have changed.

    It is not. Just as we have to know what all sorts of oth4er religious terms actually mean, lest we misunderstand them, so Sola Fide has to be understood as it is meant. Sure, anyone can think it means something else, but there is nothing wrong with the term itself.

    Faith Alone justifies. That doesn't mean Faith will BE alone!

    The latter rendering of the meaning is what the people who believe in Faith + Works = Salvation try to make it mean, but the term itself obviously isn't saying that. ;)

    Because I take you at your word, I will concede that some people may be confused and are sincere about that. But it still isn't the fault of a term that was important 500 years ago. That it is still used is no more unusual than that all Christians are using special language about Trinities and Hallelujahs and all sorts of other terms that were not the invention of anyone using them today.

    Here is another example. The Catholic Church believes in "Papal Infallibility." Well, that term could be taken to mean that the Pope is always correct, infallible, whatever and whenever he says something. That, of course, is not what Catholics believe, but I don't hear many people insisting to Catholics that that is what they must mean by it since "that is what the words say!"

    Yet we hear often that Sola Fide just cannot be correct, that it is an erroneous belief, that it has to mean (insert misunderstanding here), and that Protestants therefore believe that!:sigh:
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2019
  2. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

    +7,249
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    Of course willful sin wont allow repentence, and imputed righteousness will not allow willful sin, they are mutually exclusive. Now let me ask you a question, if righteousness is imputed to you like money into a bank account, and you never apply it to your debt of sin or daily walk, is that saving faith?

    I do have a point, bear with me. Paul goes on for 10 verses in Romans 6, dead to sin alive to God (righteousness). Then in vs. 11 he says, therefore count (consider, credit, impute) yourself dead to sin. Of course repentence is vital, what kind of a miserable salvation would declare us righteous and leave us enslaved to our sin. That's what legalism and licentiousness do to us. The righteousness that is by grace through faith empowers us to walk in victory to the glory of the father.

    If course repentance is part of that, imputed righteousness, it's one of the primary benifits of it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2019
  3. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

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    Rather, Faith = works = salvation. If one or the other factors in this equation is missing, then salvation is not to be had. I assume you believe that if the fruit of works was not present, then genuine faith was never present to begin with. But James wrote “So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.” In other words saving faith is already present as indicated by the the phrase "by itself." However if their saving faith does not result in works, their faith is worthless.
     
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  4. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

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    So how can the claim be true then that Jesus' perfect righteousness is imputed to us and because we now possess it, God no longer sees our sins and thus we are automatically forgiven of all past, present and future sins?
     
  5. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

    +7,249
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    I accidently poated that before finishing it, you might try the complete version.
     
  6. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Stop. Faith does not equal Works. It produces Works.

    And what he means by that is that the Faith claimed by such a person was not real since it did not do what real Faith does.

    Many people were claiming to be believers, but James is saying that talk is cheap and we can tell pretty well who has real Faith and who does not, because Faith changes people.

    I would say that now you are close. James chose to use the word dead rather than worthless, that's all. After all, those people he had in mind had said that they had "Faith," so he is merely commenting on that usage. It doesn't mean he is affirming their claim. Obviously not.
     
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  7. royal priest

    royal priest debtor to grace

    +1,484
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    John Calvin is quoted as having said, "faith is the open, empty hand that receives the righteousness of God in Jesus Christ."
     
  8. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

    +7,390
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    I answered 'no', because faith by itself achieves nothing. Faith has to have an object on which to base itself. It is faith in Christ that justifies. Faith is more than just a mental belief that God exists, and that Jesus died, was resurrected and is the Saviour of mankind. The devil and his demons believe that, but they don't have justifying faith.

    Just saying, "I have faith" means absolutely nothing. It is like saying "I believe" and nothing more. The question arises from that: "Believe what?"

    There are different kinds of faith:
    * One's ability to keep the moral law (faith in performance).
    * In the Knowledge of the Bible (the demons believers that as well).
    * In Miracles (Judas believed in and performed miracles but was a thief and a hypocrite).
    * In a particular church and its traditions.
    * In a specific pastor or 'big-name' preacher (if that preacher or pastor is disgraced, faith fails, as in the case of so many when some 'big-name' preachers have been caught in adultery or exposed as frauds.

    But these kinds of faith are not justifying faith. Hell will be populated with those with all these kinds of faith.

    The only justifying faith is absolute dependence on Christ through the straight salvation promises in the Bible; so instead of saying 'faith alone', I would say "Faith in Christ alone justifies the true believer".
     
  9. James Murphy

    James Murphy LCMS Lutheran

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    I voted yes. You aren't saved by works, you have works because you've already been saved.
     
  10. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    You don't believe all sins are wilful sins? Is there a sin we commit that is ever not wilful? Do you love your God with all your heart all your mind all your soul? Do you love your neighbor as yourself?
     
  11. Maria Billingsley

    Maria Billingsley Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,201
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    In Relationship
    Faith proven by works.
     
  12. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

    874
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    Widowed
    See, when PAUL says, "faith", I know what he is talking about. When YOU (or most anyone else --don't take it personally) says it, I'm not so sure.

    I've heard all sorts of things called faith, and nobody pointing out that no, it is not something done by willpower, strength of mind, intensity of feeling, or integrity of decision. It is something done by God, for God's own sake, by God's decision. And yeah, THAT faith justifies.
     
  13. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Having read all of that post, I cannot imagine why you would answer no to the question rather than yes.

    Just about everything you said adds up to a yes. There is one thing only: Faith Alone automatically means Faith IN CHRIST.

    In context, this position statement (Faith Alone) refers to Faith in Christ, not to having "faith" that it will rain tomorrow or faith that "everything will work out for the best" or any other such use of the word.
     
  14. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

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    Faith does = works as the are two side of the same coin. Why would James concern himself with what an unbeliever does? Do you suppose Jesus was referring to unbelievers when he rebuked the Churches in
    Revelation for their lack of works? Yes or No? Do you deny that those with genuine faith can choose NOT to do any good works? Yes or No? Do you deny that those with genuine faith an choose to practice sin? Yes or No?
     
  15. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

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    Paul wrote: though formerly I was a blasphemer, persecutor, and insolent opponent. But I received mercy because I had acted ignorantly in unbelief, 1 Tim 1:13
     
  16. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    Okay, so now that you don't love your neighbor as yourself, even though you know it is a sin, would you consider that a wilful sin?
     
  17. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

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    Yes.
     
  18. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    As I clearly explained in my post, one must define the object of faith in order to make Justifying faith quite clear. That is why your two options cause more questions than answers, and that one can answer yes and no to both options presented.
     
  19. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    So do you confess that sin Everyday?
     
  20. Danthemailman

    Danthemailman Well-Known Member

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    Amen! Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-24).

    *Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.*

    It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony* :oldthumbsup:
     
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