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Faith Alone?

Discussion in 'Non-denominational' started by Chris†opher Paul, Jan 5, 2003.

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  1. SUNSTONE

    SUNSTONE Christian Warrior

    +206
    Non-Denom
    Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

    I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.   John 6:28+29+35

    NEVER :clap:

    Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace but of DEBT. But to him that WORKETH NOT, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.Roms 3:4+5

    If you work to try and earn your keep, you are just paying off a debt you can never pay.

    Where is boasting then? It is exluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

    Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. Roms 3:27+28+30+31
     
  2. chelcb

    chelcb 'Totus tuus'

    +0
     

    Umm, if we are sheep, then I can only make a natural conclusion that he is the Shepherd. And I have an opinion on what 'No one can snatch means." It means that once we have been baptized into Jesus we can not changed that fact. Adam's debt has been paid in full and we can't be guilty of original sin ever again, but we can lose salvation because of our choice to live a life of mortal sin after we have been forgiven the sin of Adam. I see the sacrifice of Jesus as a two-fold thing. He died to get rid of original sin and he offered that death up in atonement for our personal sins. So yes, we can't be snatch out of Jesus' hands, we are not of Satan's seed once we have been born into God's family, but that does not say that we can't run away from our family and live on the streets.
     
  3. Apologist

    Apologist 2 Tim. 2:24-26

    +11
    Christian
    Thanks brother I appreciate the kind words. Give the glory to God for He is the one who equips each of us to do His will. :)

    God Bless
     
  4. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

    +21
    Non-Denom
    oh no, isnt this a catholic idea -- original sin, mortal sin etc? Sin is sin.

    but we can lose our salvation and end up in hell??

    How can we remain in Jesus' hands and yet be in hell at the same time??? big contradiction.

    The things of God are so simple when you see it and believe. If God the Father, God the Son and the Holy Spirit all say nothing can snatch us out of his hand, then it just means that.

    if one cant see that, it's prob cos he is proud of all the works he has done to score points for heaven, and just can accept the fact that God will save the meanest soul who turns to God in his last breath. like the labourers who were angry at the landlord for paying the 9th hour workers the same wage.
     
  5. Apologist

    Apologist 2 Tim. 2:24-26

    +11
    Christian
    I understand your point chelcb but I don't see it that way.

    Salvation is a gift and God is not in the business of taking away that which he freely gives.

    In John 6:37-40 Jesus says:

    "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

    I believe Jesus is clearly teaching here that of all that the Father brings to Christ, none will be lost. If we can walk away from our salvation then Jesus did not know what He was talking about and He clearly would lose some.

    God Bless
     
  6. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

    508
    +0
    Christian
    In John 6:28-29, Jesus meant that we can't do any works of God without first believing in Jesus; he wasn't saying that our works of God stop with believing in him, for as he said elsewhere, "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 7:21).

    "They should repent and turn to God, and do works" (Acts 26:20).

    "I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works" (Titus 3:8).

    "Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away" (John 15:2).

    "I have not found thy works perfect before God" (Revelation 3:2).

    "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate" (Titus 1:16).

    "Thou wicked and slothful servant... Cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 25:26, 30).

    Compare: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9). This means that God did not give us the gift of faith based upon our prior works, for "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us" (Titus 3:5). But once we have received the gift of faith it must be accompanied by works, for "By grace are ye saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8), but "faith, if it hath not works, is dead" (James 2:17); "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only" (James 2:24).

    A work of faith, "remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love" (1 Thessalonians 1:3), "the work of faith with power" (2 Thessalonians 1:11), is not a work of the law (Romans 3:28) or a work of the flesh (Galatians 5:19-21).
     
  7. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

    508
    +0
    Christian
    Note that in John 10:27-28 Jesus is referring only to those who are actively following him, not to those who fall away from following him by their own apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-6) or unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29).

    We have to continue in his loving hand by our own free will unto the end:

    "He that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved" (Matthew 24:13).

    "Continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off" (Romans 11:22).

    "Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee" (1 Timothy 4:16).

    "Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, IF we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end" (Hebrews 3:6).

    "For we are made partakers of Christ, IF we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end" (Hebrews 3:14).
     
  8. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

    508
    +0
    Christian
    Note that we can fall away from Christ unto damnation: "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost. And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned" (Hebrews 6:4-8).
     
  9. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

    508
    +0
    Christian
    Of course this is true, for God is love (1 John 4:8) and he is everywhere (Psalm 139:7-8). But this doesn't mean we can't lose our salvation, for note that Paul had just finished saying "if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live" (Romans 8:13).

    "Thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off" (Romans 11:20-22).
     
  10. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

    508
    +0
    Christian
    No, but we must take up the cross that the Lord has asked us to take up for him daily: "If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it. For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?" (Luke 9:23-25).
     
  11. chelcb

    chelcb 'Totus tuus'

    +0
    Andrew,

    oh no, isnt this a catholic idea -- original sin, mortal sin etc? Sin is sin. 

    Yes it’s a catholic teaching and no, sin is not sin. Do you think that being born in a state of sin is not different from your personal actual sins?

    but we can lose our salvation and end up in hell??

    Yes you can, not saying you will, only you can. It’s really God’s call, don’t you think?

    How can we remain in Jesus' hands and yet be in hell at the same time??? big contradiction. 

    No, not at all we are free from Adams sin, but still held accountable for personal mortal sins committed. If I am set to hell it won't be because I am under the sin of Adam, it will be because I choose to go there by giving up my claim to heaven by living a life of sin. After baptism, God don't send anybody to hell, we go there on our own, we choose it. Before baptism, "all have sinned and falls short of glory."

    The things of God are so simple when you see it and believe. If God the Father, God the Son and the Holy Spirit all say nothing can snatch us out of his hand, then it just means that.

    I agree, nothing can change your statues from being born from sin to being born into the family of God, but you are free to leave the family any time you want by walking away and into sin.

    if one cant see that, it's prob cos he is proud of all the works he has done to score points for heaven, and just can accept the fact that God will save the meanest soul who turns to God in his last breath. like the labourers who were angry at the landlord for paying the 9th hour workers the same wage.

    I don’t disagree with that, God will extend his mercy to us all, I believe in our final hour but that in don't mean that repenting of sin and staying away from sin is a work. Don’t you try to avoid sin and the near occasion of it? Do you think of it as work?
     
  12. Apologist

    Apologist 2 Tim. 2:24-26

    +11
    Christian


    Nowhere does Romans 8:13 imply loss of salvation.
     
  13. SUNSTONE

    SUNSTONE Christian Warrior

    +206
    Non-Denom
    Matthew 7:21  You forgot Matt 7:23   I NEVER KNEW YOU.Depart from me ye that work iniquity.  He was talking about wolves in sheeps clothing that lead people astray from the gospel truth. False prophets. Jesus said my sheep know my voice.

    Acts 26:20 This was just a statement in a nutshell. You should be good, but it doesn't say "or else" or anything like that. Can a man hold a hot coal to his bossom and not get burned?

    John 6:28+29 Jesus meant what He said, He knows how weak we are. Paul said it, Believe in your heart and confess with your mouth. He didn't say and you must be good.

    Titus 3:5-9 Read all of that for a better look at the verse.  It talks about not by our works, but by HIS MERCY he saved us.    I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God MIGHT be careful to maintain good works. (But read on to know why) These things are good and profitable unto men.   But avoid foolish questions and genealogies, and conteions, and strivings ABOUT THE LAW: FOR THEY ARE UNPOFITABLE AND VAIN.

    If the law was so important for our salvation, then why that statement? Because we are dead unto the law Roms 7:4-6, so that we SHOULD bring forth fruit unto God.For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our memeber to bring forth fruit unto death. But now we are delievered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we SHOULD  serve in newness of spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

    John 15  The ones that don't produce fruit are the unbelievers. What is fruit? Fruit of the Spirit?  Jesus went on to command you that you love one another just like He has loved us.

    Rev 3:2 What are the works? How do you become white as snow, in Rev3:5? Is it not by the blood of Jesus? This is talking to a specific church, and talks about some people who are righteous, and some who aren't. Its a warning to the ones that are not.

    Titus 1:16 This is another warning about false teachers, who are after "filthy lucre". They say they know God, but they don't and there motives come through there actions and demenor. The Isrealites were filthy with sin, and Moses interceded on there behalf. But they tried the patience of God, and died in the forest. Moses too died before he could cross over, because he got out of line. But this isn't talking about the book of life, this is talking about reaping what you sow. Because we know Moses made it to heaven.

    Matt 25  This paints a picture of two different types of people, one is perfect the other is totally worthless. Which one are you? At the end of it Jesus gathers everyone into His right and left hands. And the Father says to the right, you feed, and visited me. The others you did nothig.  So were do you lie?

    James 2 This can be a sticking point for some, but in light of the many other verse, including James 2 as a whole, you will see that this isn't talking about lossing your faith.  Before you get into verse 14 (.... can faith save him?) It talks about the law, and about those that try to get in by the law. It says if you break one law, you have broken them all. So now we live in the law of "liberty". This means, that the law is still there, just like the law of gravity. A man is poor and is miss treated, and James is warning about the dangers of having that type of treatment come upon them. So he sets it up for verse 14. Now if you read on through he talks about demons and how they believe but they sit and tremble. Jesus said that the work for salvation is to believe in Him. So if you have faith that He is God, and don't confess it, it does you no good. 

    As it is said in the days of old, He will forgive inguity, tresspasses, and sin, but by no means will the guilty go unpunished.

    So what is it? Does He forgive, or does He punish? Both, for who the Lord loves, he disciplines. Live in the freedom wherewith Christ has made us! :clap:
     
  14. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

    508
    +0
    Christian
    Note that the word used in Matthew 7:23 is the same word used in John 2:24-25, which says that Jesus knows all men, for his Spirit is everywhere and knows everything about everyone.

    I believe what Jesus meant in Matthew 7:23 was that they had never borne any fruit of righteousness by which he might know them as his servants, for a tree is known by its fruit (Matthew 7:20). I believe the Lord "knows" the way of the righteous (Psalms 1:6), but that Christians who just say the sinner's prayer and get baptized in the Spirit and do miracles, but never stop their sinful practices will be lost (Hebrews 10:26-30).

    We only sin because we want to. We are never tempted beyond our strength to bear it. There is always a way of escape if we are willing to receive it from God:

    "God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it" (1 Corinthians 10:13).

    We can avoid condemnation only if we "walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" (Romans 8:1).

    "Make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof" (Romans 13:14).

    "Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh" (Galatians 5:16).

    "For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: that every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour; not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God" (1 Thessalonians 4:3-5).

    "I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway" (1 Corinthians 9:27).

    "Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God" (Galatians 5:19-21).

    "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?" (Hebrews 10:26-29).

    "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity" (Matthew 7:22-23).

    "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning" (2 Peter 2:20).

    Again, compare: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9). This means that God did not give us the gift of faith based upon our prior works, for "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us" (Titus 3:5). But once we have received the gift of faith it must be accompanied by works, for "By grace are ye saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8), but "faith, if it hath not works, is dead" (James 2:17); "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only" (James 2:24).

    Note again that a work of faith, "remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love" (1 Thessalonians 1:3), "the work of faith with power" (2 Thessalonians 1:11), is not a work of the law (Romans 3:28) or a work of the flesh (Galatians 5:19-21).
     
  15. SUNSTONE

    SUNSTONE Christian Warrior

    +206
    Non-Denom
    You are taking that James 2:14 out of context.
    1. He said just before that, if you live the law you must live the whole law.
    2. He was saying that the law is still there, something like gravity, he compared it to when a poor man walks in and how some might judge him wrongly, and how this could come back on them.
    3. Faith by itself is no good, if you don't do nothing with it. Like the demons who sit and tremble. But the problem is when people compare it to Abrahams sacrifice of his son. First off he didn't even relate it to sin. So they see this example and think that you must do something other than do what Jesus, and Paul said which was believe in your heart, and confess with your mouth.
    There are two examples in that passage. 1. is Abraham, the other is 2. the demon. Two extremes.
    The chapter covers two things, one salvation, and the other establishing the law, so you don't get burned. And this is made clear when he said if you do it by the law you must live the whole law. What isn't clear is how much do you have to do? thats because its already established with the other letters. Believe and confess, thats it.

    Galations 5:16-25
    1. Verse 17 tells you right out that "For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and theses are contrary the one to the other; so that ye cannot do the things that ye would."
    Paul said if I do that which I do not want to do, it is no longer I that do it, but sin that liveth in me. He even says, the will is there but how to perform it he doesn't know.
    2. Now take that list, how many do you have to do? All of them? One of them? If just one, how much of that one do you have to do? Once a day? more or less? Its not clear, it is just a standard to go by. Because once you believe and confess, you receive the Holy Spirit, and now you don't want to live that way, because you realize the truth. But this doesn't change your flesh, your flesh contains nothing good. Like I said before the Isrealites were full of sin, and yet Moses interceded for them, and said if you blot there names out of the book of life, then blot out mine as well. And Moses found favor with God.
    God forgave them, while at the same time they reaped what they sowed, wether good or bad.

    Now Paul made it clear about the law, he spent something like 5-7 chapters in Romans to make it clear. And you find a few verses that deal with mostly reaping and sowing, and say this is salvation?

    An unsaved person will live by the flesh, because to them its "eat, drink, and be merry for tomorrow we die". For the believer its, "Can a man hold a hot coal to himself and not get burned?"

    We SHOULD live the law, for many reason, but salvation isn't one of them.
     
  16. SUNSTONE

    SUNSTONE Christian Warrior

    +206
    Non-Denom
    You are taking all of these verses out of context, total heresy!

    You pick a line here and there, and do some pasteing and poof, man made doctrines for salvation by faith+works of the law. Which in Roms is says a man shall be justified without the works of the law. Everyone of these scriptures, you have to look at all the verses around it to get a better understanding of what they are saying.

    Hebrew 10:26 "For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge....." 

    1.Have you sinned after receiving the knowledge?

    2.Moses did, and Moses died, what happened to Moses?(because he is mentioned just two verses down, and it goes along with that verse)

    3.So what does it mean?  It means fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. If you steal something from a store, you will get arrested. So by your own scripture if you believe that is true the way YOU see it, then you have condemned yourself! It has nothing to do with salvation, but everything to do with getting your tail whipped.

    Matthew 7. If you got saved and had the Holy Spirit in you, and you in Him, doesn't that mean you KNOW HIM? What that verse means is this. These men didn't come up to Jesus and say thanks for dieing on the cross for me, they came up with good works, and tried to get in on there own doings. They didn't have a covering for sin, which is Jesus blood.
     
  17. SUNSTONE

    SUNSTONE Christian Warrior

    +206
    Non-Denom
    1.Is it a gift? Or is it something that you put on a credit card?

    2.If you had to work at it, then why did Paul say that if he does that which he doesn't want to do, then it is no longer him doing it but sin that dwelleth in him?

    3. Only 2 of the original Isrealites crossed the river Jordan, and Moses wasn't one of them, why?

    4. Samson totally screwed up, did God still use him?

    5. Where is the symbolic meaning for salvation? The parted Red Sea? Or the river Jordan?

    6. If we recieve the truth, and from that point on don't fufill the desires of the flesh, then why do we call God mercyfull and forgiving?

    7. If we don't fufill the deeds of the flesh but live in the Spirit, which is very hard, but not impossible, doesn't that mean we played a part in working for our salvation?

    8. If not doing the deeds of the flesh is so important, then why didn't Jesus say them?

    9. Exactly how much deeds of the flesh do you have to do, to consider yourself unsaved?

    (Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty;

    And he said, If now I have found grace in thy sight, O lLord, let my Lord, I pray thee, go among us; for it is a stubborn people; and pardon our iniquity and our sin, and take us for thine inheritance. And he said, Behold, I make a covenant;.....) Exodus 34:7+9

    10. What does the word stubborn mean in this verse?

    11. What does the Lord mean when He said "forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty".? Does He forgive, or doesn't He?

     

     
     
  18. SUNSTONE

    SUNSTONE Christian Warrior

    +206
    Non-Denom
    Bump
     
  19. Outspoken

    Outspoken Standing in the Gap

    +15
    Christian
    "No, but we must take up the cross that the Lord has asked us to take up for him daily: "

    Exactly, but this implies that you're not always producing fruit, sometimes you are barren, thus we can see that OSAS is the postion :)
     
  20. Live4Jesus

    Live4Jesus Well-Known Member

    +1
    By grace are you saved not by any works of your own.

    But faith works in you and produces fruit, its the work of salvation, not the work prior which will burn, that is fruit.

    Once saved you begin a new life with Jesus at the helm, and his work inwardly in you produces work outwardly from you toward others...

    something like that.

    Much better work than any my own pea brain could conceive on it own BTW I must say...

    Walk humbly with your God.
     
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