Faith alone is required for salvation & You're not under Mosaic law!

[BrotherJJ]

So, let's try this piecemeal:
1. "Mixing in our works, in order to achieve salvation."

We don't mix anything, by faith we produce.

The faith of God does not produce our works, which are as filthy rags, but rather produces His works of His faith.

If works are not necessary for justification with God, then please explain:

"Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2).

Abrahams Faith via Paul, Abrahams Obedience via James

The 2 writers reference different time frames & statements in Abraham's life:

Paul's, recorded event is from Gen 15:6 "believed"

James, recorded event is from Gen 22:18 "obeyed"

Now, Contrast the word "believed" in Gen. 15:6 and the word "obeyed" in Gen. 22:18

Gen:15; Paul's speaks of a time 30-40 years before the time James refers to

In Paul's reference in Gen 15:6 It's Abrahams FAITH whereby God imputed righteousness onto Abraham.

In James reference in Gen 22:18 (30-40 YEARS LATER) Abrahams obedience seen here, is a result of his Faith, exercised 30-40 years earlier.

Genesis 15:6 Abram "believed" the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness
(MY NOTE: He BELIEVED & righteousness was imputed onto him, no other work was required)

Romans 4:22 This is why "Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness"
(MY NOTE: He BELIEVED & righteousness was imputed onto him, no other work was required)

Galatians 3:6 So also Abraham "believed God", "and it was credited to him as righteousness"
(MY NOTE: He BELIEVED & righteousness was imputed onto him, no other work was required)

James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God", "and it was credited to him as righteousness" and he was called God's friend.
(MY NOTE: He BELIEVED & righteousness was imputed onto him, no other work was required)

Romans 4:9 Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham's "faith was credited to him as righteousness"
(NOTE: Only faith, NO Circumcision & no personal WORKS needed. Righteousness was imputed onto Abraham by faith. Before he entered into the blood covenant of circumcision. Abraham is called the father of ALL who believe.)

God's unilateral, unconditional covenant promise to Abraham depends on faith & faith alone.

 

[Thuycidides]

Abrahams Faith via Paul, Abrahams Obedience via James

The 2 writers reference different time frames & statements in Abraham's life:

Paul's, recorded event is from Gen 15:6 "believed"

James, recorded event is from Gen 22:18 "obeyed"

Now, Contrast the word "believed" in Gen. 15:6 and the word "obeyed" in Gen. 22:18

Gen:15; Paul's speaks of a time 30-40 years before the time James refers to

In Paul's reference in Gen 15:6 It's Abrahams FAITH whereby God imputed righteousness onto Abraham.

In James reference in Gen 22:18 (30-40 YEARS LATER) Abrahams obedience seen here, is a result of his Faith, exercised 30-40 years earlier.

Genesis 15:6 Abram "believed" the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness
(MY NOTE: He BELIEVED & righteousness was imputed onto him, no other work was required)

Romans 4:22 This is why "Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness"
(MY NOTE: He BELIEVED & righteousness was imputed onto him, no other work was required)

Galatians 3:6 So also Abraham "believed God", "and it was credited to him as righteousness"
(MY NOTE: He BELIEVED & righteousness was imputed onto him, no other work was required)

James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God", "and it was credited to him as righteousness" and he was called God's friend.
(MY NOTE: He BELIEVED & righteousness was imputed onto him, no other work was required)

Romans 4:9 Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham's "faith was credited to him as righteousness"
(NOTE: Only faith, NO Circumcision & no personal WORKS needed. Righteousness was imputed onto Abraham by faith. Before he entered into the blood covenant of circumcision. Abraham is called the father of ALL who believe.)

God's unilateral, unconditional covenant promise to Abraham depends on faith & faith alone.

1. The specific promise to Abraham of the the son to come was 1 year before the birth of Isaac. Abraham believed, and it was imputed righteousness, and Abraham acted, and he was justified.

2. Once again:
-how is James wrong in saying Abraham was justified by works?
-where did Paul ever say faith alone Justifies?
-Where does Scripture say that imputed righteousness is the same as justification?

"He BELIEVED & righteousness was imputed onto him, no other work was required"

So faith is now a work? Or do you mean, he believed and no work at all was required?

No work to be imputed righteousness, but work required to justify.

"God's unilateral, unconditional covenant promise to Abraham depends on faith & faith alone."

How can the unconditional be conditional? Unconditional depends on nothing. And faith alone is dead.

 

[BrotherJJ]

So faith is now a work? And faith alone is dead.

Under heavens law, the required wage/payment due for sin is death. A sinless, faithful, obedient Jesus, fulfilled the laws requirement.

When a person acknowledges there is a sovereign God, that they have transgressed His law, that He sent His Son to pay sins wage.

They place their FAITH in Christ's sin atoning work found in His death (sins required price/wage, PAID) burial (proof Jesus died) & resurrection (Father God's receipt, sins required wage received & accepted)

Jesus rewards this confession of FAITH by: Baptizing the believer with His eternal salvation sealing indwelling Holy Spirit. At this moment ALL the believer's sins are forever forgiven.

The believer is now forever saved/justified = Judicially declared righteous by a sovereign God. ALL their sins/Past/Present/Future are imputed onto Christ & HIS righteousness is imputed onto them.

Find the following supporting verses in the OP/post#1:

Matt 26:28 (AMP) For this is My blood of the new covenant, which ratifies the agreement and is being poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Law keeping never provided sin remission/pardon/forgiveness, water baptism never provided sin remission/pardon, repentance never provided sin remission/forgiveness, obedience never provided sin forgiveness, sabbath observance never provided sin pardon/forgiveness, tithing doesn't provide sin remission/pardon/forgiveness etc.

Only faith in Jesus sin atoning sacrifice & resurrection can remove the sin stain from one's soul.

1 Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
(NOTE: Anyone that believes they can conquer their own sin nature, without Gods help is mistaken)

Faith in Christ's righteous/obedient sin redemptive work, LEADS, to obedience & repentance

Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches "of his goodness" and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that "the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance"?
(MY NOTE: It's thru the GOODNESS of GOD not thru OUR OWN great work of sin repentance, obedience or self-control. That we REPENT/change our thinking/course. It's salvations seal of indwelling Holy Spirit that leads us to REPENT/change our thinking outlook & direction > TOWARDS God & faith in Christ. Also see Acts 20:21).

Rom 16:26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, ""so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience"" ""that comes from faith""
(NOTE: Brought to obedience/repentance/godly living, thru Faith)

Rom 1:5 "Through him we received grace" & apostleship "to call all the Gentiles to the obedience" "that comes from faith" for his name’s sake.
(NOTE: Called to FAITH, which leads to obedience & repentance)

Faith & Faith alone is the requirement for salvation. Repentance/obedience & good works will be the result of Faith.

When FAITH is the root, good works & obedience will be the fruit!

BTW: God see's our self righteous law keeping works as filthy rags (Isa 64:6).

Salvation isn't about how great, wonderful & perfect we may think we are.

Its about how great, wonderful, graceful, loving, righteous, obedient, forgiving & sinless perfect Christ was/is! As HE IS, so are we in this world! (1 Jn 4;17)

All praise, glory & honor belong to our Great God & Savior, Jesus the Christ. Amen

 

[Soyeong]

"If the Mosaic Law isn't God's law, then who else's law is it?"

The law of Christ.

Indeed, the Mosaic Law is the Law of Christ, which Christ taught by word and by example.

"You've disagreed that the Mosaic Law is God's law, but the fact that the Mosaic Law was given by God and is therefore God's law completely undermines your disagreement."

As I said, God's law was changed from that of Moses to that of Christ at the cross, where the Covenant changed with the priesthood. (Heb 7:12)

The Mosaic law was indeed given by God on the mount and in the tabernacle in the wilderness and was God's law for His Covenant with national Israel, so long as that Covenant remained between God and national Israel.

It no longer does.

As I showed, Hebrews 7:12 is speaking about a change in the law in regard to its administration, not in regard to its content. If the way to act in accordance with God's righteousness were to change under the New Covenant, such as with it becoming righteous to commit adultery, then God's righteousness would not be eternal. In Romans 5:13, sin was in the world before the law was given, so there were no actions that become sinful when the law was given, but rather the law revealed what has always been and will always be the way to do that. For example, it was sinful to commit adultery back in Genesis 39:9 long before the Mosaic Covenant was made, during it, and it remains sinful after it has become obsolete, so there is nothing about any number of God's covenants being made or becoming sinful that changes which actions are in accordance or against God's eternal righteousness.

"All of God's righteous laws are eternal (Psalms 119:160)."

1. The Old Covenant was 'everlasting' and yet it was done away with for the New.
2. God's righteousness is eternal, but not the Covenant and law that defines it.
-Circumcision was in the law of Moses. It no longer is law, because the law of Moses is no longer law of God.
3. God's Old Covenant was conditional:

IF national Israel had received their own Messiah, then the 'everlasting' covenant and Law of Moses would have remained forever. They did not, and so God of necessity changed it from that of national Israel to that of all people that believe. No more national Israel of God: no more law of Moses for it.

The Mosaic Covenant was renewed. If the covenant law that defines God's righteousness were to change, then God's righteousness would be eternal. Circumcision is still part of the law of God and if it were not, then it would be false that all of God's righteous laws are eternal. The New Covenant is based on better promises and one of those promises is that Israel would never cease to be a nation before God (Jeremiah 31:35-37).

You are making a classic error. The same as the Judaizers. If you want the law of Moses to still be in effect along with the Old Covenant, then you need to convert to Judaism and the Jews' religion, where the Jews still try to practice it to this day, and reject Jesus Christ and His New Covenant and the law of Christ, as the Jews still do to this day.

The Judaizers were wanting to require all Gentiles to become circumcised in order to become saved, however, that is not a position that I have ever supported, so I am not making their error. I do not think that we should live under the Mosaic Covenant, but have been speaking about how to live under the New Covenant. Jesus practiced Judaism by teaching us how to live in obedience to the Mosaic Law, so we can look at what he taught and decide whether or not to become his follower, but we can't follow him by rejecting what he taught, and it is absurd to think that following what Christ taught is rejecting him.

"The same God who gave the law to Moses also sent Jesus, who spent his ministry teaching his followers how to obey it by word and by example."

As a man and a Jew, Jesus kept the law of Moses and preached it. As risen Lord and Savior He made His New Covenant and law known to the apostles: the apostles' doctrine and law of Christ has replaced the law of Moses.

Jesus did not establish the New Covenant in order to undermine anything that he spent his ministry teaching, but rather the New Covenant still involves following the Law of Moses (Jeremiah 31:33), so the point of his ministry was to teach us how to live under the New Covenant. What to do you think was the point of Christ's ministry if at the end of his ministry he establish the New Covenant in order to disregard everything he spent his ministry teaching? Again, John 12:46-50 does not give us any room to disregard anything that he taught during his ministry, and in 1 Peter 2:21-22 we are still to follow Christ's example under the New Covenant.

"Nowhere does the Bible say that we should disregard everything that was taught prior to the cross, nor was anything that was taught after the cross contrary to what was taught prior to it"

All Scripture is still profitable, but not all Scripture is law. You may regard any of it you wish, but not as law. If you want the law of Moses to still be in effect in your life, then you are bound to keep the whole law of Moses, not just the parts you like. If you want to be circumcised, fine, but if you do it as law, then you are a debtor to do the whole law. But if you preach law of Moses to me, then I disregard it out of hand, because it no longer exists with God. If you preach law of Christ to me, then I am bound to do it by faith of Jesus.

If any of the law of Moses is written again in the Scriptures of the New Covenant as law of Christ, then I am bound to obey it as law of Christ, not as law of Moses.

I agree that not all Scripture is law, though all of God's laws are Scripture, and if you agree that they are all profitable, then you should agree that we should follow them. God is sovereign, so we are all under His law and are obligated to obey regardless of whether or not we want His eternal laws to still be in effect. The Psalms express an extremely positive view of the Mosaic Law, such as with David repeatedly saying that he loved it and delighted in obeying it, so if you consider the Psalms to be Scripture and to therefore express a correct view of the Mosaic Law, then you will share it, as Paul did (Romans 7:22), while any view less than that we ought to delight in obeying it is incompatible with the view that the Psalms are Scripture. All of God's righteous laws are eternal, so all of them will always be part of the Law of God. The Law of Moses is what Christ taught, so it is the Law of Christ. Jesus would have still taught full obedience to the Mosaic Law by example even if he had repeated nothing, and we are still told to follow his example. There is nothing in Scriptures that suggests that Jesus was in disagreement with the Father about which laws we should follow and that he was editing it down to just what would eventually be recorded that he repeated. Jesus practiced obedience to the Mosaic Law and did not hypocritically preach something other than what he practiced.

"Jesus did not establish the New Covenant in order to undermine anything that he spent his ministry teaching, but rather the New Covenant still involves following God's eternal law."

Jesus established His teaching in writing in the New Covenant with His apostles after His resurrection.

"The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen."

Jesus began to teach His Covenant and law after His resurrection, and continued to do so after His ascension to His apostles He personally chose to write it down, including Paul. I hearken to the apostles' doctrine and law of Christ as a Christian saved in the New Covenant of God. Not the law of Moses.

God will always have His law. But He can change it as He wishes. And He did. The law of Moses ended with the Old Covenant, for which that law was made by God. The law of Christ is made for the New Covenant. The law of Christ will never end, as the law of Moses did, because His New Covenant will never end, because the Gospel of the cross is everlasting with an everlastingness that will never end, because it is established by one condition: That the Lamb of God lives forever and will never change.

"I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen."

"But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second."

"For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore."

The oath of Jesus was made since the law: after the law of Moses. The law of Moses has passed along with the Old Covenant. Now we have the law of Christ confirmed by His own eternal oath that shall never pass.

I am not telling you what to do or not to do, I'm just saying that if you want to keep the law of Moses, go ahead, just don't preach it as existing law of God. That would be false teaching and false ministry, not of God, but of men:

"Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm."

There is nothing in the Bible that states that Jesus establish his own set of laws after the resurrection, but rather everything he taught after his resurrection was in accordance with the Law of Moses. If God was free to change His law on whim, then His nature would not be eternal, and He would not have needed to sent Jesus to die on the cross when He could have just changed His law instead.

While Hebrews 8:6-10 speaks about the New Covenant having a superior mediator and being based on better promises, it says nothing about being made with a superior God with a superior nature and superior laws for how to act in accordance with His superior nature, but rather it still involves following the same God with the same nature and the same law for how to act in accordance with His nature.

You are rather blatantly ripping 1 Timothy 1:7 out of context.

 

[Thuycidides]

Under heavens law, the required wage/payment due for sin is death. A sinless, faithful, obedient Jesus, fulfilled the laws requirement.

When a person acknowledges there is a sovereign God, that they have transgressed His law, that He sent His Son to pay sins wage.

They place their FAITH in Christ's sin atoning work found in His death (sins required price/wage, PAID) burial (proof Jesus died) & resurrection (Father God's receipt, sins required wage received & accepted)

Jesus rewards this confession of FAITH by: Baptizing the believer with His eternal salvation sealing indwelling Holy Spirit. At this moment ALL the believer's sins are forever forgiven.

The believer is now forever saved/justified = Judicially declared righteous by a sovereign God. ALL their sins/Past/Present/Future are imputed onto Christ & HIS righteousness is imputed onto them.

Find the following supporting verses in the OP/post#1:

Matt 26:28 (AMP) For this is My blood of the new covenant, which ratifies the agreement and is being poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Law keeping never provided sin remission/pardon/forgiveness, water baptism never provided sin remission/pardon, repentance never provided sin remission/forgiveness, obedience never provided sin forgiveness, sabbath observance never provided sin pardon/forgiveness, tithing doesn't provide sin remission/pardon/forgiveness etc.

Only faith in Jesus sin atoning sacrifice & resurrection can remove the sin stain from one's soul.

1 Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
(NOTE: Anyone that believes they can conquer their own sin nature, without Gods help is mistaken)

Faith in Christ's righteous/obedient sin redemptive work, LEADS, to obedience & repentance

Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches "of his goodness" and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that "the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance"?
(MY NOTE: It's thru the GOODNESS of GOD not thru OUR OWN great work of sin repentance, obedience or self-control. That we REPENT/change our thinking/course. It's salvations seal of indwelling Holy Spirit that leads us to REPENT/change our thinking outlook & direction > TOWARDS God & faith in Christ. Also see Acts 20:21).

Rom 16:26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, ""so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience"" ""that comes from faith""
(NOTE: Brought to obedience/repentance/godly living, thru Faith)

Rom 1:5 "Through him we received grace" & apostleship "to call all the Gentiles to the obedience" "that comes from faith" for his name’s sake.
(NOTE: Called to FAITH, which leads to obedience & repentance)

Faith & Faith alone is the requirement for salvation. Repentance/obedience & good works will be the result of Faith.

When FAITH is the root, good works & obedience will be the fruit!

BTW: God see's our self righteous law keeping works as filthy rags (Isa 64:6).

Salvation isn't about how great, wonderful & perfect we may think we are.

Its about how great, wonderful, graceful, loving, righteous, obedient, forgiving & sinless perfect Christ was/is! As HE IS, so are we in this world! (1 Jn 4;17)

"All praise, glory & honor belong to our Great God & Savior, Jesus the Christ. Amen

At this moment ALL the believer's sins are forever forgiven. The believer is now forever saved/justified..."

Ok, so you are preaching 'once saved, always saved', which I agree ties in with the relationship of faith, works, and justification. So I suppose you believe one professing faith, yet denying Him by ungodly living without good works, thus proving their professed faith to be dead...that they never 'really' believed from the heart in the first place, and so were never 'really' saved, but only deceiving themselves and others that took them at their word of faith...

I.e. Professing with the lips is not confession from the heart. Which I agree with. However:

Paul states plainly of those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come. (Heb 6)

These were believers from the heart and born again every bit as much as any other, and to deny it is to break Scripture and to have some sort of personal pride in one's own partaking of grace.

And if any such believer should fall away to their old wallowing in sins (2 Peter 2), to the point of crucifying to themselves Christ afresh in open display of wicked works, shamelessly denying Him with an evil heart of unbelief (Heb 3), then it is impossible to renew repentance again and so be saved again.

I.e. we likewise in Christ are warned not to fall after the same manner of unbelief as them that fell in the wilderness after their deliverance by the Lord from Egypt's servitude. (1 Cor 10)

"Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God."

We cannot depart from the living God without ever coming to Him, and we can only come to Him by faith in Him.

So, Scripture to me teaches 'once saved, stay saved'. Stay believing and doing unto the end. Don't quit the faith and turn back to the old man of sin, else we will fall away from the true Vine by our own dead weight of unbelief, even as the Jews did first in rejecting Jesus as Christ and Lord.

And so, the works of faith and of repentance are at least necessary to stay saved...

 

[Thuycidides]

Under heavens law, the required wage/payment due for sin is death. A sinless, faithful, obedient Jesus, fulfilled the laws requirement.

When a person acknowledges there is a sovereign God, that they have transgressed His law, that He sent His Son to pay sins wage.

They place their FAITH in Christ's sin atoning work found in His death (sins required price/wage, PAID) burial (proof Jesus died) & resurrection (Father God's receipt, sins required wage received & accepted)

Jesus rewards this confession of FAITH by: Baptizing the believer with His eternal salvation sealing indwelling Holy Spirit. At this moment ALL the believer's sins are forever forgiven.

The believer is now forever saved/justified = Judicially declared righteous by a sovereign God. ALL their sins/Past/Present/Future are imputed onto Christ & HIS righteousness is imputed onto them.

Find the following supporting verses in the OP/post#1:

Matt 26:28 (AMP) For this is My blood of the new covenant, which ratifies the agreement and is being poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Law keeping never provided sin remission/pardon/forgiveness, water baptism never provided sin remission/pardon, repentance never provided sin remission/forgiveness, obedience never provided sin forgiveness, sabbath observance never provided sin pardon/forgiveness, tithing doesn't provide sin remission/pardon/forgiveness etc.

Only faith in Jesus sin atoning sacrifice & resurrection can remove the sin stain from one's soul.

1 Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
(NOTE: Anyone that believes they can conquer their own sin nature, without Gods help is mistaken)

Faith in Christ's righteous/obedient sin redemptive work, LEADS, to obedience & repentance

Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches "of his goodness" and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that "the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance"?
(MY NOTE: It's thru the GOODNESS of GOD not thru OUR OWN great work of sin repentance, obedience or self-control. That we REPENT/change our thinking/course. It's salvations seal of indwelling Holy Spirit that leads us to REPENT/change our thinking outlook & direction > TOWARDS God & faith in Christ. Also see Acts 20:21).

Rom 16:26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, ""so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience"" ""that comes from faith""
(NOTE: Brought to obedience/repentance/godly living, thru Faith)

Rom 1:5 "Through him we received grace" & apostleship "to call all the Gentiles to the obedience" "that comes from faith" for his name’s sake.
(NOTE: Called to FAITH, which leads to obedience & repentance)

Faith & Faith alone is the requirement for salvation. Repentance/obedience & good works will be the result of Faith.

When FAITH is the root, good works & obedience will be the fruit!

BTW: God see's our self righteous law keeping works as filthy rags (Isa 64:6).

Salvation isn't about how great, wonderful & perfect we may think we are.

Its about how great, wonderful, graceful, loving, righteous, obedient, forgiving & sinless perfect Christ was/is! As HE IS, so are we in this world! (1 Jn 4;17)

All praise, glory & honor belong to our Great God & Savior, Jesus the Christ. Amen

"Law keeping never provided sin remission/pardon/forgiveness."

True. I never said salvation of soul and imputed righteousness of God inwardly is by anything other than grace through faith.

But Scripture shows that salvation and imputed righteousness are not the same as justification.

Paul preaches against works without faith, and James preaches faith without works.

Unless you can show me where I am wrong in saying that as Abraham we are justified by works with faith made perfect thereby, then you have no justification by faith alone.

Also show me where Paul ever said we are justified by faith alone. Quote the Scripture.

Paul was rebuking those who sought justification from God by keeping the outward demands of the law, without faith in God from the heart. They were doing it, but they certainly didn't like it, especially not loving it. (As Get Smart would say)

Therefore, faith is the first step necessary for justification with God. Paul never said that by faith alone we are justified by grace. We are saved by grace through faith, but we are not justified by grace through faith alone.

We are saved and imputed righteousness by grace through faith, but we are only justified by grace through faith working the righteousness of God.

There is a difference between the imputed righteousness of salvation by grace through faith, and justification with God by grace through faith and it's works.

All are by grace, and so no reason to boast in ourselves; however, James made it clear that pertaining to justification there is godly demand of faith to be seen by works thereof:

"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works."

So, show me your faith without works, and I will show faith that is dead and without justification with God.

 

[Thuycidides]

Under heavens law, the required wage/payment due for sin is death. A sinless, faithful, obedient Jesus, fulfilled the laws requirement.

When a person acknowledges there is a sovereign God, that they have transgressed His law, that He sent His Son to pay sins wage.

They place their FAITH in Christ's sin atoning work found in His death (sins required price/wage, PAID) burial (proof Jesus died) & resurrection (Father God's receipt, sins required wage received & accepted)

Jesus rewards this confession of FAITH by: Baptizing the believer with His eternal salvation sealing indwelling Holy Spirit. At this moment ALL the believer's sins are forever forgiven.

The believer is now forever saved/justified = Judicially declared righteous by a sovereign God. ALL their sins/Past/Present/Future are imputed onto Christ & HIS righteousness is imputed onto them.

Find the following supporting verses in the OP/post#1:

Matt 26:28 (AMP) For this is My blood of the new covenant, which ratifies the agreement and is being poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Law keeping never provided sin remission/pardon/forgiveness, water baptism never provided sin remission/pardon, repentance never provided sin remission/forgiveness, obedience never provided sin forgiveness, sabbath observance never provided sin pardon/forgiveness, tithing doesn't provide sin remission/pardon/forgiveness etc.

Only faith in Jesus sin atoning sacrifice & resurrection can remove the sin stain from one's soul.

1 Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
(NOTE: Anyone that believes they can conquer their own sin nature, without Gods help is mistaken)

Faith in Christ's righteous/obedient sin redemptive work, LEADS, to obedience & repentance

Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches "of his goodness" and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that "the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance"?
(MY NOTE: It's thru the GOODNESS of GOD not thru OUR OWN great work of sin repentance, obedience or self-control. That we REPENT/change our thinking/course. It's salvations seal of indwelling Holy Spirit that leads us to REPENT/change our thinking outlook & direction > TOWARDS God & faith in Christ. Also see Acts 20:21).

Rom 16:26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, ""so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience"" ""that comes from faith""
(NOTE: Brought to obedience/repentance/godly living, thru Faith)

Rom 1:5 "Through him we received grace" & apostleship "to call all the Gentiles to the obedience" "that comes from faith" for his name’s sake.
(NOTE: Called to FAITH, which leads to obedience & repentance)

Faith & Faith alone is the requirement for salvation. Repentance/obedience & good works will be the result of Faith.

When FAITH is the root, good works & obedience will be the fruit!

BTW: God see's our self righteous law keeping works as filthy rags (Isa 64:6).

Salvation isn't about how great, wonderful & perfect we may think we are.

Its about how great, wonderful, graceful, loving, righteous, obedient, forgiving & sinless perfect Christ was/is! As HE IS, so are we in this world! (1 Jn 4;17)

All praise, glory & honor belong to our Great God & Savior, Jesus the Christ. Amen

"Faith & Faith alone is the requirement for salvation. Repentance/obedience & good works will be the result of Faith."

True, but we are not talking about salvation alone, but rather justification
by faith alone.

Salvation is the work of God inwardly by grace through faith, but justification by grace is the work of faith outwardly.

They are manifestly not the same, because Abraham was justified by works, when he actually followed through with faith to do the work of faith.

And he later said it was proper to demand the works of faith outwardly to be seen to prove the inward faith, as pertaining to justification (Not salvation and imputed righteousness of God).

Therefore, it is more Scriptural to declare justification by works of faith, than justification by faith and confession alone: "...and should a man full of talk be justified?" (Job 11)

Confession from the heart is not a work of faith, no more than word and tongue are deed and truth. (1 John 3)

Confession without works is profession of dead faith.

"How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman?" (Job 25)

Being clean in heart is by believing from the heart: salvation. Being justified with God is by doing faith from the heart: justification.

Believing well saves us, but doing well justifies us.

We are clean by the faith of Jesus and forgiveness of sins with imputed righteousness of God, and we are saved by grace with confession thereof, but the only way we can be justified with God is by fulfilling the royal law to do well by loving our neighbor as ourselves. (James 2:8)

Salvation and justification are both by grace without boasting, but salvation of God and justification with God are not the same. This is manifest by the Scripture that declares Abraham was justified by works, when he did that which God promised, because he believed Him.

Abraham was imputed righteousness, when he believed God, Who sees the inward, and he was called a friend of God and justified as such with God, when he fulfilled the outward work of faith.

So, calm down and fret not and just look at it this way: We are saved, but not justified with God, until we do the good work of believing God, which by example of Abraham is that of having great productive sex in marriage at old age...

 

[Thuycidides]

Indeed, the Mosaic Law is the Law of Christ, which Christ taught by word and by example.



As I showed, Hebrews 7:12 is speaking about a change in the law in regard to its administration, not in regard to its content. If the way to act in accordance with God's righteousness were to change under the New Covenant, such as with it becoming righteous to commit adultery, then God's righteousness would not be eternal. In Romans 5:13, sin was in the world before the law was given, so there were no actions that become sinful when the law was given, but rather the law revealed what has always been and will always be the way to do that. For example, it was sinful to commit adultery back in Genesis 39:9 long before the Mosaic Covenant was made, during it, and it remains sinful after it has become obsolete, so there is nothing about any number of God's covenants being made or becoming sinful that changes which actions are in accordance or against God's eternal righteousness.




The Mosaic Covenant was renewed. If the covenant law that defines God's righteousness were to change, then God's righteousness would be eternal. Circumcision is still part of the law of God and if it were not, then it would be false that all of God's righteous laws are eternal. The New Covenant is based on better promises and one of those promises is that Israel would never cease to be a nation before God (Jeremiah 31:35-37).



The Judaizers were wanting to require all Gentiles to become circumcised in order to become saved, however, that is not a position that I have ever supported, so I am not making their error. I do not think that we should live under the Mosaic Covenant, but have been speaking about how to live under the New Covenant. Jesus practiced Judaism by teaching us how to live in obedience to the Mosaic Law, so we can look at what he taught and decide whether or not to become his follower, but we can't follow him by rejecting what he taught, and it is absurd to think that following what Christ taught is rejecting him.



Jesus did not establish the New Covenant in order to undermine anything that he spent his ministry teaching, but rather the New Covenant still involves following the Law of Moses (Jeremiah 31:33), so the point of his ministry was to teach us how to live under the New Covenant. What to do you think was the point of Christ's ministry if at the end of his ministry he establish the New Covenant in order to disregard everything he spent his ministry teaching? Again, John 12:46-50 does not give us any room to disregard anything that he taught during his ministry, and in 1 Peter 2:21-22 we are still to follow Christ's example under the New Covenant.



I agree that not all Scripture is law, though all of God's laws are Scripture, and if you agree that they are all profitable, then you should agree that we should follow them. God is sovereign, so we are all under His law and are obligated to obey regardless of whether or not we want His eternal laws to still be in effect. The Psalms express an extremely positive view of the Mosaic Law, such as with David repeatedly saying that he loved it and delighted in obeying it, so if you consider the Psalms to be Scripture and to therefore express a correct view of the Mosaic Law, then you will share it, as Paul did (Romans 7:22), while any view less than that we ought to delight in obeying it is incompatible with the view that the Psalms are Scripture. All of God's righteous laws are eternal, so all of them will always be part of the Law of God. The Law of Moses is what Christ taught, so it is the Law of Christ. Jesus would have still taught full obedience to the Mosaic Law by example even if he had repeated nothing, and we are still told to follow his example. There is nothing in Scriptures that suggests that Jesus was in disagreement with the Father about which laws we should follow and that he was editing it down to just what would eventually be recorded that he repeated. Jesus practiced obedience to the Mosaic Law and did not hypocritically preach something other than what he practiced.



There is nothing in the Bible that states that Jesus establish his own set of laws after the resurrection, but rather everything he taught after his resurrection was in accordance with the Law of Moses. If God was free to change His law on whim, then His nature would not be eternal, and He would not have needed to sent Jesus to die on the cross when He could have just changed His law instead.

While Hebrews 8:6-10 speaks about the New Covenant having a superior mediator and being based on better promises, it says nothing about being made with a superior God with a superior nature and superior laws for how to act in accordance with His superior nature, but rather it still involves following the same God with the same nature and the same law for how to act in accordance with His nature.

You are rather blatantly ripping 1 Timothy 1:7 out of context.

"As I showed, Hebrews 7:12 is speaking about a change in the law in regard to its administration, not in regard to its content."

When I read in Scripture that the law is changed, because the priesthood is changed, under which that law was received, because the Covenant was changed, by which that priesthood was made,...then I see the whole law being changed with the whole priesthood under that law and the whole Covenant by that law.

Nevertheless: "For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law." (Gal 5)

Whether you want to parse difference in 'content' and 'admin' of law of Moses or not, you are still debtor to do the whole law, both 'content' and 'admin', which means every single carnal ordinance, as well as priestly sacrifice.

Now, if the 'whole law' does not mean the whole law, but can be likewise parsed into pieces thereof, be my guest.

God always has a way by Scripture of confounding the false and only confirming the true.

 

[Thuycidides]

Indeed, the Mosaic Law is the Law of Christ, which Christ taught by word and by example.



As I showed, Hebrews 7:12 is speaking about a change in the law in regard to its administration, not in regard to its content. If the way to act in accordance with God's righteousness were to change under the New Covenant, such as with it becoming righteous to commit adultery, then God's righteousness would not be eternal. In Romans 5:13, sin was in the world before the law was given, so there were no actions that become sinful when the law was given, but rather the law revealed what has always been and will always be the way to do that. For example, it was sinful to commit adultery back in Genesis 39:9 long before the Mosaic Covenant was made, during it, and it remains sinful after it has become obsolete, so there is nothing about any number of God's covenants being made or becoming sinful that changes which actions are in accordance or against God's eternal righteousness.




The Mosaic Covenant was renewed. If the covenant law that defines God's righteousness were to change, then God's righteousness would be eternal. Circumcision is still part of the law of God and if it were not, then it would be false that all of God's righteous laws are eternal. The New Covenant is based on better promises and one of those promises is that Israel would never cease to be a nation before God (Jeremiah 31:35-37).



The Judaizers were wanting to require all Gentiles to become circumcised in order to become saved, however, that is not a position that I have ever supported, so I am not making their error. I do not think that we should live under the Mosaic Covenant, but have been speaking about how to live under the New Covenant. Jesus practiced Judaism by teaching us how to live in obedience to the Mosaic Law, so we can look at what he taught and decide whether or not to become his follower, but we can't follow him by rejecting what he taught, and it is absurd to think that following what Christ taught is rejecting him.



Jesus did not establish the New Covenant in order to undermine anything that he spent his ministry teaching, but rather the New Covenant still involves following the Law of Moses (Jeremiah 31:33), so the point of his ministry was to teach us how to live under the New Covenant. What to do you think was the point of Christ's ministry if at the end of his ministry he establish the New Covenant in order to disregard everything he spent his ministry teaching? Again, John 12:46-50 does not give us any room to disregard anything that he taught during his ministry, and in 1 Peter 2:21-22 we are still to follow Christ's example under the New Covenant.



I agree that not all Scripture is law, though all of God's laws are Scripture, and if you agree that they are all profitable, then you should agree that we should follow them. God is sovereign, so we are all under His law and are obligated to obey regardless of whether or not we want His eternal laws to still be in effect. The Psalms express an extremely positive view of the Mosaic Law, such as with David repeatedly saying that he loved it and delighted in obeying it, so if you consider the Psalms to be Scripture and to therefore express a correct view of the Mosaic Law, then you will share it, as Paul did (Romans 7:22), while any view less than that we ought to delight in obeying it is incompatible with the view that the Psalms are Scripture. All of God's righteous laws are eternal, so all of them will always be part of the Law of God. The Law of Moses is what Christ taught, so it is the Law of Christ. Jesus would have still taught full obedience to the Mosaic Law by example even if he had repeated nothing, and we are still told to follow his example. There is nothing in Scriptures that suggests that Jesus was in disagreement with the Father about which laws we should follow and that he was editing it down to just what would eventually be recorded that he repeated. Jesus practiced obedience to the Mosaic Law and did not hypocritically preach something other than what he practiced.



There is nothing in the Bible that states that Jesus establish his own set of laws after the resurrection, but rather everything he taught after his resurrection was in accordance with the Law of Moses. If God was free to change His law on whim, then His nature would not be eternal, and He would not have needed to sent Jesus to die on the cross when He could have just changed His law instead.

While Hebrews 8:6-10 speaks about the New Covenant having a superior mediator and being based on better promises, it says nothing about being made with a superior God with a superior nature and superior laws for how to act in accordance with His superior nature, but rather it still involves following the same God with the same nature and the same law for how to act in accordance with His nature.

You are rather blatantly ripping 1 Timothy 1:7 out of context.

"Mosaic Covenant"

Not to be picky or anything, but I am a stickler for accuracy where Scripture is concerned, and it was not the Mosaic Covenant, but the Covenant of God with Israel, having the law of Moses therein. And the Covenant of Christ has the law of Christ therein.

I think you are exposing yourself with a little too much Mosaic tapestry when reading the Scriptures. (2 Cor 3:13-15)

You need to get rid of his vail from over your face and see Jesus, His faith, His Covenant, and His law only.

 

[Thuycidides]

Indeed, the Mosaic Law is the Law of Christ, which Christ taught by word and by example.



As I showed, Hebrews 7:12 is speaking about a change in the law in regard to its administration, not in regard to its content. If the way to act in accordance with God's righteousness were to change under the New Covenant, such as with it becoming righteous to commit adultery, then God's righteousness would not be eternal. In Romans 5:13, sin was in the world before the law was given, so there were no actions that become sinful when the law was given, but rather the law revealed what has always been and will always be the way to do that. For example, it was sinful to commit adultery back in Genesis 39:9 long before the Mosaic Covenant was made, during it, and it remains sinful after it has become obsolete, so there is nothing about any number of God's covenants being made or becoming sinful that changes which actions are in accordance or against God's eternal righteousness.




The Mosaic Covenant was renewed. If the covenant law that defines God's righteousness were to change, then God's righteousness would be eternal. Circumcision is still part of the law of God and if it were not, then it would be false that all of God's righteous laws are eternal. The New Covenant is based on better promises and one of those promises is that Israel would never cease to be a nation before God (Jeremiah 31:35-37).



The Judaizers were wanting to require all Gentiles to become circumcised in order to become saved, however, that is not a position that I have ever supported, so I am not making their error. I do not think that we should live under the Mosaic Covenant, but have been speaking about how to live under the New Covenant. Jesus practiced Judaism by teaching us how to live in obedience to the Mosaic Law, so we can look at what he taught and decide whether or not to become his follower, but we can't follow him by rejecting what he taught, and it is absurd to think that following what Christ taught is rejecting him.



Jesus did not establish the New Covenant in order to undermine anything that he spent his ministry teaching, but rather the New Covenant still involves following the Law of Moses (Jeremiah 31:33), so the point of his ministry was to teach us how to live under the New Covenant. What to do you think was the point of Christ's ministry if at the end of his ministry he establish the New Covenant in order to disregard everything he spent his ministry teaching? Again, John 12:46-50 does not give us any room to disregard anything that he taught during his ministry, and in 1 Peter 2:21-22 we are still to follow Christ's example under the New Covenant.



I agree that not all Scripture is law, though all of God's laws are Scripture, and if you agree that they are all profitable, then you should agree that we should follow them. God is sovereign, so we are all under His law and are obligated to obey regardless of whether or not we want His eternal laws to still be in effect. The Psalms express an extremely positive view of the Mosaic Law, such as with David repeatedly saying that he loved it and delighted in obeying it, so if you consider the Psalms to be Scripture and to therefore express a correct view of the Mosaic Law, then you will share it, as Paul did (Romans 7:22), while any view less than that we ought to delight in obeying it is incompatible with the view that the Psalms are Scripture. All of God's righteous laws are eternal, so all of them will always be part of the Law of God. The Law of Moses is what Christ taught, so it is the Law of Christ. Jesus would have still taught full obedience to the Mosaic Law by example even if he had repeated nothing, and we are still told to follow his example. There is nothing in Scriptures that suggests that Jesus was in disagreement with the Father about which laws we should follow and that he was editing it down to just what would eventually be recorded that he repeated. Jesus practiced obedience to the Mosaic Law and did not hypocritically preach something other than what he practiced.



There is nothing in the Bible that states that Jesus establish his own set of laws after the resurrection, but rather everything he taught after his resurrection was in accordance with the Law of Moses. If God was free to change His law on whim, then His nature would not be eternal, and He would not have needed to sent Jesus to die on the cross when He could have just changed His law instead.

While Hebrews 8:6-10 speaks about the New Covenant having a superior mediator and being based on better promises, it says nothing about being made with a superior God with a superior nature and superior laws for how to act in accordance with His superior nature, but rather it still involves following the same God with the same nature and the same law for how to act in accordance with His nature.

You are rather blatantly ripping 1 Timothy 1:7 out of context.

"If the way to act in accordance with God's righteousness were to change under the New Covenant, such as with it becoming righteous to commit adultery, then God's righteousness would not be eternal."

I.e. God's righteousness and true holiness never changes, because He changes not.

However, His law pertaining to righteousness does and has changed. To break any law of Moses, not matter in what point, was to break all of it, as is the case with the law of Christ. (James 2:10)

Therefore, all the law of God by Moses was His righteousness written down for His Covenant. To violate any point was to be judged an unrighteous transgressor before God according to the law.

God's law pertaining to priestly temple service and worship had everything to do with His righteousness. That 'content' of law of priestly service was written specifically to ensure the people of God that had sinned would obtain mercy.

If they did not sacrifice as prescribed by law, they were not justified with God. They were counted as sinners without mercy. So much so, that the one who illegally touched the ark was killed by God, even as a wicked man is killed. (2 Sam 6)

All the law of Moses, the whole law of Moses was worthy of the label of 'content of righteousness'.

There is absolutely no scripture to suggest otherwise. It is construct of your own making. The whole law of Moses was changed for the whole law of Christ, to say otherwise is to say God's law is not whole. God's law is whole and complete and righteous altogether (Psalms 19), and He changed His whole law of Moses for His whole law of Christ.

And if you declare the law of circumcision by the law of Moses to be still law of God, then you are debtor to do the whole law of Moses.

The Judaizers cared nothing for the salvation of the souls they were persuading to keep the law of Moses as they. They only cared about keep company with 'Mosaic' law keepers, if they were to have anything to do with them in the Covenant of God.

For if they did care for their souls in the faith and blood of the Lamb, then they would not have been trying to compel them into falling from grace of God by Christ Jesus.

You are playing the part of Christian Judaizer insisting on law of Moses to still be law of God, in any part, and so we must keep it as such, but just don't think it is saving you. And since you are the one who knows difference between 'moral content' and 'admin only' parts, then we need you to tell us exactly which is which.

Right.

 

[BrotherJJ]

Paul states plainly of those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come. (Heb 6)

These people herd/were enlightened, yet, remained in unbelief. Therefore they were never saved.

Our Lord & God Jesus was/is our redeemer/savior is the Propitiation/atonement/sacrifice for our sin

KJV Dictionary Definition: PROPITIATION, n. propisia'shon.
2. In theology, the atonement or atoning sacrifice offered to God to assuage his wrath and render him propitious to sinners. Christ is the propitiation for the sins of men. Rom.3. 1 John 2.
PROPITIABLE - Definition from the KJV Dictionary

Rom 3:25 “Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;”

1 Jn 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Rom 5:
1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
(MY NOTE: Our Lord & God Jesus was/is our redeemer/savior is the Propitiation/atonement/sacrifice for our sin. We access HIS sin atoning sacrifice thru FAITH in HIS work.[NOT OURS])

Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
(MY NOTE: The only way to remove the sin stain from our soul. Is faith placed in Jesus finished/Law Fulfilling sin atoning/propitiatory sacrifice. Found in His death, burial & resurrection.)

Vine's Expository Dictionary of NT Words: Salvation

(2/b) of the spiritual and eternal deliverance granted immediately by God to those who accept His conditions of repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus, in whom alone it is to be obtained, Acts 4:12 , and upon confession of Him as Lord, Romans 10:10 ; for this purpose the gospel is the saving instrument, Romans 1:16 ; Ephesians 1:13 (see further under SAVE);
Salvation - Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words

(MY NOTE: Rereading 2-b "ETERNAL DELIVERANCE GRANTED IMMEDIATELY" by God to those who acknowledge God's rule & have faith in the Lord Jesus sin atoning death & resurrection)

I believe the following verses support my posted SEALED position:

Mark 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
(MY NOTE: He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost. Also see Mat 3:11, Lk 3:16 & Jn 1:33)

2 Cor 5:5 God, who also hath given unto us the "earnest" of the Spirit
(MY NOTE: God's Holy Spirit dwelling within us is the earnest. Earnest translated from the Greek word: arrabon. Also means a deposit/pledge. In modern Greek arrabona = "engagement ring.")

2 Cor 1:22 Who hath also "sealed us" & "given the earnest" of the Holy Spirit in our hearts
(MY NOTE: God has placed His Holy Spirit in the believers heart. As a DEPOSIT/PLEDGE & SEAL, until the soon coming day of our final redemption)

2 Tim 1:14 The Holy Spirit who dwells within us, guard the good deposit entrusted to you
(MY NOTE: The Holy Spirit dwelling within us. Is God's good deposit)

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
(MY NOTE: You heard about Christ's finished sin redemptive payment & resurrection. When you believed/trusted, Christ sealed/baptized you with His Holy Spirit).

Eph 1:14 Which is the "earnest" of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession
(MY NOTE: The Holy Spirit by which only Christ baptizes/seals & indwells us. Is God's earnest = a down payment/pledge)

Eph 4:30 grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are "sealed" unto the day of redemption
(NOTE: Believers are SEALED with God's Holy Spirit. UNTIL THE FINAL DAY OF REDEMPTION)

1 John 5:13 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
(NOTE: That you may know ""PRESENT TENSE"" that you have eternal life)

Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
(NOTE: God doesn't go back on His Word or Promises)

We are all free to believe in & trust in Christ's work or not. Best wishes, JJ

 

[Thuycidides]

Indeed, the Mosaic Law is the Law of Christ, which Christ taught by word and by example.



As I showed, Hebrews 7:12 is speaking about a change in the law in regard to its administration, not in regard to its content. If the way to act in accordance with God's righteousness were to change under the New Covenant, such as with it becoming righteous to commit adultery, then God's righteousness would not be eternal. In Romans 5:13, sin was in the world before the law was given, so there were no actions that become sinful when the law was given, but rather the law revealed what has always been and will always be the way to do that. For example, it was sinful to commit adultery back in Genesis 39:9 long before the Mosaic Covenant was made, during it, and it remains sinful after it has become obsolete, so there is nothing about any number of God's covenants being made or becoming sinful that changes which actions are in accordance or against God's eternal righteousness.




The Mosaic Covenant was renewed. If the covenant law that defines God's righteousness were to change, then God's righteousness would be eternal. Circumcision is still part of the law of God and if it were not, then it would be false that all of God's righteous laws are eternal. The New Covenant is based on better promises and one of those promises is that Israel would never cease to be a nation before God (Jeremiah 31:35-37).



The Judaizers were wanting to require all Gentiles to become circumcised in order to become saved, however, that is not a position that I have ever supported, so I am not making their error. I do not think that we should live under the Mosaic Covenant, but have been speaking about how to live under the New Covenant. Jesus practiced Judaism by teaching us how to live in obedience to the Mosaic Law, so we can look at what he taught and decide whether or not to become his follower, but we can't follow him by rejecting what he taught, and it is absurd to think that following what Christ taught is rejecting him.



Jesus did not establish the New Covenant in order to undermine anything that he spent his ministry teaching, but rather the New Covenant still involves following the Law of Moses (Jeremiah 31:33), so the point of his ministry was to teach us how to live under the New Covenant. What to do you think was the point of Christ's ministry if at the end of his ministry he establish the New Covenant in order to disregard everything he spent his ministry teaching? Again, John 12:46-50 does not give us any room to disregard anything that he taught during his ministry, and in 1 Peter 2:21-22 we are still to follow Christ's example under the New Covenant.



I agree that not all Scripture is law, though all of God's laws are Scripture, and if you agree that they are all profitable, then you should agree that we should follow them. God is sovereign, so we are all under His law and are obligated to obey regardless of whether or not we want His eternal laws to still be in effect. The Psalms express an extremely positive view of the Mosaic Law, such as with David repeatedly saying that he loved it and delighted in obeying it, so if you consider the Psalms to be Scripture and to therefore express a correct view of the Mosaic Law, then you will share it, as Paul did (Romans 7:22), while any view less than that we ought to delight in obeying it is incompatible with the view that the Psalms are Scripture. All of God's righteous laws are eternal, so all of them will always be part of the Law of God. The Law of Moses is what Christ taught, so it is the Law of Christ. Jesus would have still taught full obedience to the Mosaic Law by example even if he had repeated nothing, and we are still told to follow his example. There is nothing in Scriptures that suggests that Jesus was in disagreement with the Father about which laws we should follow and that he was editing it down to just what would eventually be recorded that he repeated. Jesus practiced obedience to the Mosaic Law and did not hypocritically preach something other than what he practiced.



There is nothing in the Bible that states that Jesus establish his own set of laws after the resurrection, but rather everything he taught after his resurrection was in accordance with the Law of Moses. If God was free to change His law on whim, then His nature would not be eternal, and He would not have needed to sent Jesus to die on the cross when He could have just changed His law instead.

While Hebrews 8:6-10 speaks about the New Covenant having a superior mediator and being based on better promises, it says nothing about being made with a superior God with a superior nature and superior laws for how to act in accordance with His superior nature, but rather it still involves following the same God with the same nature and the same law for how to act in accordance with His nature.

You are rather blatantly ripping 1 Timothy 1:7 out of context.

"There is nothing in the Bible that states that Jesus establish his own set of laws after the resurrection."

"Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen." (Acts 1)

Why give commandments to His apostles, if they were already written in the law of Moses.

Jesus' doctrine was given by Him to His apostles personally to give to us as the foundation of Christ in the New Covenant (1 Cor 3:11). It is the apostles' doctrine we are to be steadfast in, not that of Moses. (Acts 2:42)

"If God was free to change His law on whim..."

And so the crucifixion of His only begotten Son on the cross to redeem mankind from sin, was a whim...

You see, your own words condemn you, as you try and push a Judaism that is not true.

This is a plain example of how many people today think Jesus' crucifixion so long ago in matter of years, was merely a blip on the video-screen of man's history.

Oh yes, and God is free to do anything He wants, so long as He does not violate His own Word, promise, and law that is still in effect.

He could become a man if He wanted to, and he did. Your refusal to be done with Mosaic tapestry over your face is akin to the refusal of some to even consider God the Son, rather than the son being created to do some good things on earth, and then to be deified and rewarded with immortality afterward.

 

[Thuycidides]

These people herd/were enlightened, yet, remained in unbelief. Therefore they were never saved.

Our Lord & God Jesus was/is our redeemer/savior is the Propitiation/atonement/sacrifice for our sin

KJV Dictionary Definition: PROPITIATION, n. propisia'shon.
2. In theology, the atonement or atoning sacrifice offered to God to assuage his wrath and render him propitious to sinners. Christ is the propitiation for the sins of men. Rom.3. 1 John 2.
PROPITIABLE - Definition from the KJV Dictionary

Rom 3:25 “Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;”

1 Jn 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Rom 5:
1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
(MY NOTE: Our Lord & God Jesus was/is our redeemer/savior is the Propitiation/atonement/sacrifice for our sin. We access HIS sin atoning sacrifice thru FAITH in HIS work.[NOT OURS])

Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
(MY NOTE: The only way to remove the sin stain from our soul. Is faith placed in Jesus finished/Law Fulfilling sin atoning/propitiatory sacrifice. Found in His death, burial & resurrection.)

Vine's Expository Dictionary of NT Words: Salvation

(2/b) of the spiritual and eternal deliverance granted immediately by God to those who accept His conditions of repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus, in whom alone it is to be obtained, Acts 4:12 , and upon confession of Him as Lord, Romans 10:10 ; for this purpose the gospel is the saving instrument, Romans 1:16 ; Ephesians 1:13 (see further under SAVE);
Salvation - Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words
(MY NOTE: "Eternal deliverance granted immediately" by God to those who accept His conditions of repentance & faith in the Lord Jesus)

I believe the following verses support my posted SEALED position:

Mark 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
(MY NOTE: He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost. Also see Mat 3:11, Lk 3:16 & Jn 1:33)

2 Cor 5:5 God, who also hath given unto us the "earnest" of the Spirit
(MY NOTE: God's Holy Spirit dwelling within us is the earnest. Earnest translated from the Greek word: arrabon. Also means a deposit/pledge. In modern Greek arrabona = "engagement ring.")

2 Cor 1:22 Who hath also "sealed us" & "given the earnest" of the Holy Spirit in our hearts
(MY NOTE: God has placed His Holy Spirit in the believers heart. As a DEPOSIT/PLEDGE & SEAL, until the soon coming day of our final redemption)

2 Tim 1:14 The Holy Spirit who dwells within us, guard the good deposit entrusted to you
(MY NOTE: The Holy Spirit dwelling within us. Is God's good deposit)

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
(MY NOTE: You heard about Christ's finished sin redemptive payment & resurrection. When you believed/trusted, Christ sealed/baptized you with His Holy Spirit).

Eph 1:14 Which is the "earnest" of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession
(MY NOTE: The Holy Spirit by which only Christ baptizes/seals & indwells us. Is God's earnest = a down payment/pledge)

Eph 4:30 grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are "sealed" unto the day of redemption
(NOTE: Believers are SEALED with God's Holy Spirit. UNTIL THE FINAL DAY OF REDEMPTION)

1 John 5:13 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
(NOTE: That you may know ""PRESENT TENSE"" that you have eternal life)

Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
(NOTE: God doesn't go back on His Word or Promises)

We are all free to believe in & trust in Christ's work or not. Best wishes, JJ

"These people herd/were enlightened, yet, remained in unbelief. Therefore they were never saved."

Well, we can see without seeing and hear without hearing, but I don't read about tasting the heavenly gift without tasting, and being partakers of the Holy Ghost without partaking.

No, I don't know how long it took to come up with that one: tasting and partaking without believing, but that's just about the dumbest thing I ever heard. (The Legend of Bagger Vance)

And then you follow it up with all the prescribed Greek and most educated elongation of definitions and explanations to somehow justify it. Which I did not bother with.

Thoroughly unimpressed and no longer taking you seriously.

So, if you are not living in sin, whether openly or in secret, and thus not counting on corrupted faith to save you by 'grace', then fine. And if you are simply misplaced in your love of justification without works, fine.

But, as a brother in the Lord with the love of God for any who confess His name Jesus, that still has got to be the dumbest thing I have ever heard. And I thought I had heard it all. So, in a way, thank you.

 

[BrotherJJ]

"These people herd/were enlightened, yet, remained in unbelief. Therefore they were never saved."

Well, we can see without seeing and hear without hearing, but I don't read about tasting the heavenly gift without tasting, and being partakers of the Holy Ghost without partaking.

No, I don't know how long it took to come up with that one: tasting and partaking without believing, but that's just about the dumbest thing I ever heard. (The Legend of Bagger Vance)

And then you follow it up with all the prescribed Greek and most educated elongation of definitions and explanations to somehow justify it. Which I did not bother with.

Thoroughly unimpressed and no longer taking you seriously.

So, if you are not living in sin, whether openly or in secret, and thus not counting on corrupted faith to save you by 'grace', then fine. And if you are simply misplaced in your love of justification without works, fine.

But, as a brother in the Lord with the love of God for any who confess His name Jesus, that still has got to be the dumbest thing I have ever heard. And I thought I had heard it all. So, in a way, thank you.

Your opinion of me is duly noted & unimportant. I trust all post readers will make better discussion decisions.

Jn 12:22 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw """all""" men unto me.

(MY NOTE: Jesus was in fact lifted up on a cross & from the grave & will draw ALL to Himself. Everyone post Acts 2 Pentecost gets a taste of enlightenment via the Holy Spirit. Unfortunately not everyone will choose to access/seize Christ's sin atoning sacrifice/payment/atonement. Via FAITH ALONE placed in Jesus death, burial & resurrection > 1 Cor 15:1-4)

Additionally:
Jn 16:
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
(NOTE: The Holy Spirit will reprove/expose/convict everyone of, sins? NO of "SIN" singular.)

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

(MY NOTE: The only SIN that condemns one to eternal separation/damnation is UNBELIEF/rejecting Christ's sin atoning sacrifice & resurrection until life's end. Faith in Jesus sin payment & resurrection takes away/removes every other sin)

Jn 8:24 Jesus said; ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
(MY NOTE: Only FAITH [not works] is salvations requirement.)

May is grace be multiplied to you & yours, JJ.

 

[BrotherJJ]

For all those still placing believers under Mosaic law punishments due for sin:

John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

1 Jn 3:4 Sin is a transgression of the Law:

Ok, we've all have broken God's law. No one can say he is not a sinner until some means is provided (not to take away the law) but to remove the sin, which is the transgression of the law.

Faith placed in Jesus sin payment & resurrection via imputation, takes away/removes ALL the believers sin. Once our sins have been removed, there is no transgression of the law.

The laws fulfilling sin atoning payment is found in Christ's: death (sins required wage PAID), burial (proof Jesus died) & resurrection (Fathers receipt, sins payment received & accepted).

This payment is seized/accessed via FAITH (Rom 5:1-2, 10:9-10, Eph 1:13, 2:8) placed in the faithful, obedient work & resurrection of Jesus the Christ!

Christ's righteousness (Jer 23:6 & 33:16) is imputed/transferred (Rom 4:3-8) onto us & our sins are imputed/transferred onto Christ.

While the Temple was operating the High Priest had authority to impute/transfer sin (Lev 16:21). Christ our Great High Priest (Heb 4:14) has the power to not only impute our sin onto Himself. Our High Priest can also impute His righteousness onto Himself. See Lev 4 & Rom 4 for additional imputation context.

Believers REDEEMED from SIN & ALL the Deut 28 LAW punishments connected to it.

Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
(NOTE: Galatians is written to believers (Gal 1:2). A sinless Christ paid sins required wage =DEATH (Rom 6:23) Everyone that trusts in Jesus sin payment & resurrection has been/is REDEEMED from the punishments found in (Deut 28:15-65)

Heb 8:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
(NOTE: Redeemed from the law, therefore no sin transgression are applied)

Rom 6:14 (B) for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
(NOTE: Romans also written to believers (Rom 1:6-7).

A sinless Christ took upon Himself & Fulfilled ALL the laws punishment due for sin > 2 Cor 5:21.

Eph 2:15 by abolishing in His [own crucified] flesh the hostility caused by the Law with its commandments contained in ordinances [which He satisfied]; so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thereby establishing peace.
Bible Gateway passage: Ephesians 2 - Amplified Bible

(MY NOTE: Faith placed in Jesus sin atoning death & resurrection: ABOLISHES sins condemnation/judgments administered thru ordinances commanded in the old now OBSOLETE [Heb 8:13] Mosaic law covenant cut at Sinai. Believers from both groups/the twain/TWO peoples become, ONE, = Echad, meaning one People, in absolute Spiritual unity.)

Col 2:
13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh (worldliness, manner of life), God made you alive together with Christ, having [freely] forgiven us all our sins
Bible Gateway passage: Colossians 2 - Amplified Bible

(MY NOTE: At conversion/salvation Christ placed His Holy Spirit in you, simultaneously, He forgave all your sins Past-Present-Future & imputed His Righteousness onto you. Whereby you are now the righteousness of God in Christ (2 Cor 5:21)

14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of legal demands [which were in force] against us and which were hostile to us. And this certificate He has set aside and completely removed by nailing it to the cross.
Bible Gateway passage: Colossians 2 - Amplified Bible

(MY NOTE: By canceling/Removing ALL your sin debt owed/administered in Mosaic law ordinances. The Mosaic laws power to collect is now mute. No sin = No debt owed. Faith in Jesus death & resurrection paid ALL your sin debt owed.)

 

[Thuycidides]

Your opinion of me is duly noted & unimportant. I trust all post readers will make better discussion decisions.

Jn 12:22 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw """all""" men unto me.

(MY NOTE: Jesus was in fact lifted up on a cross & from the grave & will draw ALL to Himself. Everyone post Acts 2 Pentecost gets a taste of enlightenment via the Holy Spirit. Unfortunately not everyone will choose to access/seize Christ's sin atoning sacrifice/payment/atonement. Via FAITH ALONE placed in Jesus death, burial & resurrection > 1 Cor 15:1-4)

Additionally:
Jn 16:
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
(NOTE: The Holy Spirit will reprove/expose/convict everyone of, sins? NO of "SIN" singular.)

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

(MY NOTE: The only SIN that condemns one to eternal separation/damnation is UNBELIEF/rejecting Christ's sin atoning sacrifice & resurrection until life's end. Faith in Jesus sin payment & resurrection takes away/removes every other sin)

Jn 8:24 Jesus said; ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
(MY NOTE: Only FAITH [not works] is salvations requirement.)

May is grace be multiplied to you & yours, JJ.

When I said dumbest, it was with affection, even as Bagger Vance did with the Captain.

In any case, your only digging deeper into it:

"Everyone post Acts 2 Pentecost gets a taste of enlightenment via the Holy Spirit. Unfortunately not everyone will choose to access/seize Christ's sin atoning sacrifice/payment/atonement."

That is a spin on Scripture, not Scripture itself. To prove your spin makes Scriptural sense, you must provide independent Scripture saying so.

All are drawn but not all believe and taste, is the plain sense of the Scriptures you quoted.

"If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

Paul was not talking about all mankind having tasted of the heavenly gift and yet remain in sin, but only those who have been enlightened and repented of dead works. Otherwise, they could not fall away and renew dead works: Only those who have repented can return to their old man of sin and crucify unto themselves Christ afresh.

Sinners that do not believe nor confess Jesus do not put Him to an open shame, by their shameless hypocrisy before others. Normal drunkards and fornicators are not shaming Jesus, but their own selves. And those are not the ones to avoid, but only those who are known as a brother. (1 Cor 5)

Unless, you can prove your spin, then I have no respect for it. And yes, that means having no respect for your 'ideas' about Scripture in this regard. That doesn't mean I have no respect for you as a faithful believer and taster in Christ. Unless of course you are using your spin in order to live ungodly and retain 'grace' with it.

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?"

I really can take insults from anyone. I am not insulting you, but only judging your spin as childish thought pertaining to Scripture. If I am mistaken, then prove ALL have been enlightened by Christ and tasted of His heavenly gift and good Word.

If you can show me Scripture that states that plainly, then I will thank you for it and learn better and judge you to be a good teacher, rather than a simple babe playing games with the Word of God.

 

[Thuycidides]

"He forgave all your sins Past-Present-Future & imputed His Righteousness onto you."

This is the heart of the teaching that leads believers into sin without fear of God, for they think themselves already forgiven. And such 'believers' are those who give cause to the world to mock salvation by grace through faith, for while they are yet sinning like any sinner, they declare they are forgiven by faith, while the unbeliever is condemned.

"Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past." (Rom 3)

When we believe from the heart, all our past sins are forgiven.

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." (1 John 1,2)

God cannot and does not forgive unconfessed sin from the heart, which is godly sorrow.

For God's promise and Covenant to apply to any person, it is always conditional on that person's compliance to the Covenant agreement.

The Covenant of Christ is: If we believe and confess, God will forgive and save.

Even as faith without works is dead, so is forgiveness without confession impossible.

Even as where no law is, there is no transgression, so where no sin is, there is no confession.

Present sins cannot be forgiven, because they are ongoing, which makes a mockery of God's righteousness, who will judge every man according to their works.

Future sins cannot be confessed, because they are not committed.

We are washed from sin in the blood of the Lamb, if we sin, and if we confess our sin. For present and past sins to already be forgiven, then His blood would be washing over them.

Christians are not walking around in sin with a waterfall of blood washing over them to protect them from judgement of sin.

 

[Thuycidides]

"No sin = No debt owed. Faith in Jesus death & resurrection paid ALL your sin debt owed."

So being forgiven of sin is as 'no sin', and so being forgiven of present and future sins is as no sin at all.

Which is to say: "We have no sin." A self deception that comes by deceptive teaching. (1 John 1:8)

I knew a man who was an habitual fornicator. Not all the time, but on a regular basis. He really believed he was already forgiven for it in future, because He really believed that is the grace of God, as he was taught to believe.

I am often abrasive in my fervency and point blank in my honest opinion of others, but I can honestly say I never promote a teaching as a Christian that causes myself or others to believe a lie and be damned by it. (2 Thess 2)

 

[Thuycidides]

Sins forgiven past, present, and future means we have no more sin to forgive, or no sin to forgive.

And against such there is no law. And therefore, it doesn't matter whether it is the law of Moses or the Law of Christ, because in the New Covenant, there is no law for them that are already forgiven of all sin.

And where no law is, there is no transgression. And so, once saved, always saved, and once forgiven, all is forgiven. And there is no sin, no transgression, no law: Only faith and grace.

 

[BrotherJJ]

King James Bible Dictionary FORGIV'EN: Pardoned remitted.
FORGIVEN - Definition from the KJV Dictionary

1 Jn 2:12 I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.
(MY NOTE: Believers you ARE forgiven (NOT just until your next sin) for Christ's name's sake. He BOUGHT ALL [1 Cor 7:23, 2 pet 2:1 (B), Acts 20:28, Eph 1:14, 1 Tim 2:6, Matt 20:28, Mk 10:45] your sins)

Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
(MY NOTE: Christ via the offering of his own sinless blood, entered once into heaven holy place & obtained ETERNAL REDEMPTION for us.)

Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
(MY NOTE: Christ sinless payment REDEEMED believers/saints from Mosaic law sin punishment & has obtained scriptures promise of an ETERNAL inheritance)

Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
(MY NOTE: This new Christ administered order of Melchizedek sin management blood covenant is EVERLASTING!)

Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
(MY NOTE: Christ PERFECTED FOREVER those that are sanctified)

Ps 37:28 For the Lord loves justice, And does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.
(MY NOTE: The Lord doesn't forsake His saints/believers, but, PRESERVES them FOREVER!)