Faith alone and the Catholic church

Tellyontellyon

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Hi.
I'm still wondering about this question of faith alone.
I came across this video and it seemed to have good arguments in it.
If anybody is willing to watch the video, I would be interested in your views. I feel now, after watching this, that the Lutheran doctrine of faith alone is questionable.
Please watch and let me know what you think. Thank you.
 

SeekingGloryOnThisJourney

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Hi.
I'm still wondering about this question of faith alone.
I came across this video and it seemed to have good arguments in it.
If anybody is willing to watch the video, I would be interested in your views. I feel now, after watching this, that the Lutheran doctrine of faith alone is questionable.
Please watch and let me know what you think. Thank you.

I really recommend this channel which answers questions Non-Christians have:
InspiringPhilosophy
 
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RaymondG

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Made very good points. However, his argument for the accusation that his own church was filled with doctrines of men was to prove that the guy of the phone church was started by doctrines of men.

It would have been better to prove that he followed truth....than to only say that the other wasnt following truth either.

Also, the video ended without hearing a response.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Hi.
I'm still wondering about this question of faith alone.
I came across this video and it seemed to have good arguments in it.
If anybody is willing to watch the video, I would be interested in your views. I feel now, after watching this, that the Lutheran doctrine of faith alone is questionable.
Please watch and let me know what you think. Thank you.

I think this passage is relevant to the discussion.

“If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭13:2‬ ‭NASB‬‬
 
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dzheremi

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Made very good points. However, his argument for the accusation that his own church was filled with doctrines of men was to prove that the guy of the phone church was started by doctrines of men.

It would have been better to prove that he followed truth....than to only say that the other wasnt following truth either.

I agree with this. I don't have any problem with the presented defense from the epistle of St. James (of course), but it doesn't really answer the specific criticism that the Roman Catholic Church has man-made doctrines; it simply states that Jesus established the Church, which is not even something I've heard Protestants more generally (let alone that one guy on the phone) dispute. In other words, it can be true that Jesus established the Church, and that the Roman Catholic Church is not that Church (because it has embraced man-made doctrines, or whatever other reason). One is not necessarily related to the other.
 
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paul1149

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I didn't view the video. But my opinion, if you're interested, is that Gen 15 is clear that Abram believed and was credited with righteousness. No works were involved. This is what faith alone refers to. The critical point, though, is that the kind of faith that saves is not mere intellectual belief. It is a full-on consecration of the soul to God. Therefore true faith will always be accompanied by works.

This is how to reconcile Paul and James. Paul was making the critical point that works done in our own strength, outside of faith, outside of God, cannot save. Lest that be abused, James was supplying the reality check that faith must include works.

Abraham would have agreed with both Apostles. Luther took the side of Paul in order to combat the works abuses of the RCC, but he in turn went too far when he called James "an epistle of straw". The truth is that both positions are true and necessary and strengthen each other. The fact that this is so nuanced has caused no end of argumentation in the church, sadly.
 
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Tellyontellyon

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Made very good points. However, his argument for the accusation that his own church was filled with doctrines of men was to prove that the guy of the phone church was started by doctrines of men.

It would have been better to prove that he followed truth....than to only say that the other wasnt following truth either.

Also, the video ended without hearing a response.

He quoted scripture though and made good use of it, imo.
 
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com7fy8

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I feel now, after watching this, that the Lutheran doctrine of faith alone is questionable.
Not all Protestants believe the same thing. And there are different ideas among Lutherans, as far as I know. There are at least two major groups of Lutherans, and a number of members of one group won't let those of another main group have communion with them. So, all I am saying is, he can't speak for all Lutherans.

And I have been with a variety of Bible claiming people who don't buy Catholicism and they believe you can lose your salvation and must do certain works in order to be saved. Plus, in the American Catholic culture there are even people who claim to be Catholic but don't even believe in the Trinity.

Ones can stay in groups in hope of reaching people around them, and swinging people of a group to their causes.

But my opinion is you can find what is official Roman Catholic belief and practice, but ones claiming to be officially Roman Catholic might be staying in Catholicism for other than Catholic reasons. So, you need to be able to tell the difference, with each person, I would say.

And, in any case, Jesus is able to make you able to tell the difference between one of God's children and someone who is not > I offer this in consideration of the Gospel of John 10:1-30 with John 7:24 < therefore, I offer that you can't know who is really who, only by someone's say-so and how a person makes things look. God is the One who knows whom He wants you to trust and who not, and how to trust each person. So we need to submit to God and how he enlightens us and personally guides us, then, in order to really get anywhere eternally good.

A speaker on the video claims that Martin Luther taught justification by faith alone; but, he also says, this was not taught for thousands of years before Martin came along. But he can't speak for the gentle and quiet and humble people who all along have lived God's way. They might not be mentioned in the history books; in history we can see how ones who have had public power have shut out a thing or two so they could make it look like they were the ones in control and authority. The real pastors, for all I know, were too busy with caring for the sheep > these might not have been trying to get public attention >

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

My opinion is the true church possibly has never had big-name leaders as our only means to get the truth. The true believers have been gentle and quiet and humble, busy with taking care of God's children personally . . . not fighting out in public about doctrine and policy. I personally would say there is much more to salvation than having faith, plus what is more is not what Roman Catholicism is claiming; because I find that God's word gives us much more and it is different and so better than what certain mainstream Catholicism and certain Protestantism is presenting.

You can look in the Bible, yourself, and discover what is emphasized and how this compares with what you hear and read from people claiming to be of different groups.

A thing can be that the ones making a big show might not be the "examples" to get to know.

See where God's word mainly brings your attention . . . and compare this with where any person of any group mainly is calling your attention.

But, best of all > find real Jesus people who are obvious examples of how God's word says God has us becoming in our character and living in His love > leaders who succeed because of their example which feeds you to become like Jesus and loving like Jesus >

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

"And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma." (Ephesians 5:2)

The speaker on the video refers us to James where it says a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. Yes, God's word says this >

"You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only." (James 2:24)

And the grammatical structure here has "justified by" referring both to "works" and to "faith". The same word is applied to what each does. But God's word makes it clear this does not mean works we have gotten ourselves to do > Titus 3:5. And you can see three examples of works which James gives earlier in the same chapter. These are works of personal loving, I see. So, these are works done in God's love . . . by means of >

"faith working through love" > Galatians 5:6.

So, you can talk with people and see for yourself what works each one believes in or denies that we have to do in order to be saved. Ones who say no works are needed might say you need to say a prayer > but saying a prayer would be a work, I would say. But let each one speak for oneself, and see where they take your . . . attention :)

"Therefore submit to God." (in James 4:7)

And our Apostle Paul says >

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

So, a basic in any case is we need to personally submit to God, by submitting to how He personally rules us in His own peace. And He will have us doing works, indeed, if we obey His word >

"for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

So, even our willing is to be submitted to God who works our willing and our doing.

So, I have offered you what is right in the Bible, and I am dyslectic and reading impaired with no seminary. And I can tell you these things which I think you can see are in God's word or not. So, now you can let people speak for themselves and see if they talk about God's word or just about comparing their group to some other group.

The guy on the tape talks about how the Bible says we will reap what we sow. Yes, Galatians 6:7-8 says we will reap what we sow. But this does not mean we are to do the works which some group says God wants. I offer, that Paul means we do what God in us has us doing with Him in His peace. And as we do works of His love, this love is effecting us emotionally and spiritually to become more and more like Jesus . . . so we become ready to spend eternity with Jesus.

But there are people who do works in stress and fear and worry and hurry and burn-out and immorality and arguing and food abuse and frustration and nasty anger and different lusts > and the deep nasty stuff of this is corrupting them while they do works in such nasty stuff. I mean we grow in what we exercise in > we now are getting a sample in us, in our personalities, of whatever we really are sowing.

Therefore >

"Let all that you do be done with love." (1 Corinthians 16:14)

"'Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.'" (Matthew 11:29)

"the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus." (in Philippians 4:4-8)

Now, I understand that God is almighty; so His peace is almighty. And this scripture guarantees that God's own peace will guard our "hearts and minds" > to me, it is elementary school logic that if God's peace is almighty, then our Father's peace can easily guard our "hearts and minds" against any cruel feelings and emotional chaos that would mess with us.

Now, then > you can let various religious people speak for themselves, and see if they tell you that God's peace is almighty to easily guard our "hearts and minds through Christ Jesus." This means if we pray the way Philippians 4:6-7 says to pray; so our works of prayer, then, need to be done God's way so we live in this peace, I would say. So, just doing copy-cat works certainly is not enough. So > is this where someone calls your attention, or does a person merely call attention to comparing one's own group with other groups????

And, by the way, two people or groups competing can both be wrong, or each partly correct . . . or, of course, one could be right :)

On the tape, he says John Calvin got people farther off track, but he doesn't specify what he is referring to, of John.

He says Jesus established the church to speak for Him. The church had a council when there was an issue, according to Acts > yes, this is found in Acts 15. He claims this is what the church has been doing until the reformers contradicted God's word. But this does not automatically prove that the group he is supporting is the real obedient apostolic church.

After all, our Apostle Paul says what qualifies a person to "take care of the church of God" > 1 Timothy 3:1-10. You can see for yourself if a certain group is obviously holding themselves to this standard. In any case, you can find people who meet these qualifications, and you can feed on their good example :)

What matters is a person's Biblical example, not merely conforming of ideas and practices! . . . in my opinion. And Jesus makes us able to tell the difference > John 10:1-30.
 
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BNR32FAN

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I didn't view the video. But my opinion, if you're interested, is that Gen 15 is clear that Abram believed and was credited with righteousness. No works were involved. This is what faith alone refers to. The critical point, though, is that the kind of faith that saves is not mere intellectual belief. It is a full-on consecration of the soul to God. Therefore true faith will always be accompanied by works.

This is how to reconcile Paul and James. Paul was making the critical point that works done in our own strength, outside of faith, outside of God, cannot save. Lest that be abused, James was supplying the reality check that faith must include works.

Abraham would have agreed with both Apostles. Luther took the side of Paul in order to combat the works abuses of the RCC, but he in turn went too far when he called James "an epistle of straw". The truth is that both positions are true and necessary and strengthen each other. The fact that this is so nuanced has caused no end of argumentation in the church, sadly.

Abram had actually done many works as a result of his faith before chapter 15.

As for the classic misconception about James 2:21-24 and Romans 4:1-5, James and Paul are referring to two different meanings of the Greek word dikaióō aka justified. James is referring to Abraham as being shown or evinced as being righteous and Paul is referring to Abraham being counted as being righteous by God. Notice the definition of the Greek word dikaióō.


1) to render righteous or such he ought to be

(James’ use of dikaióō below in definition 2)

2) to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered

(Paul’s use of dikaióō in definition 3)

3) to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

James’ whole point in chapter 2:14-26 is about showing your faith by your works. Paul’s point in Romans 4 is that we cannot be counted as being righteous by God by our works. He is rebuking the Judaisers about trying to earn salvation by obedience to the law.
 
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BNR32FAN

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The words faith, believe, and believer are all actually 3 different forms of the same Greek word pistis. Faith or pistis being the noun, believe or pisteuo being the verb, and believer or pistos being the adjective. The Greek words pisteuo (believe) pistos (believer) pistis (faith) all imply a certain level of faithfulness, trustworthiness, fidelity, and loyalty in their definition. These have to do with an individual’s motivation for salvation. Notice in the definition below there’s a number 1 in front of the first 3 descriptions for the word pisteuo, that’s because all three of these descriptions are included in the primary definition.


believe


G4100


Lemma:


πιστεύω


Transliteration:


pisteúō


Pronounce:


pist-yoo'-o


Part of Speech:


Verb


Language:


greek


Description:


1) to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in a) of the thing believed


1) to credit, have confidence b) in a moral or religious reference


1) used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul


2) to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith


3) mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith


2) to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity a) to be intrusted with a thing


believers


G4103


Lemma:


πιστός


Transliteration:


pistós


Pronounce:


pis-tos'


Part of Speech:


Adjective


Language:


greek


Description:


1) trusty, faithful a) of persons who show themselves faithful in the transaction of business, the execution of commands, or the discharge of official duties b) one who kept his plighted faith, worthy of trust c) that can be relied on


2) easily persuaded a) believing, confiding, trusting b) in the NT one who trusts in God's promises


1) one who is convinced that Jesus has been raised from the dead


2) one who has become convinced that Jesus is the Messiah and author of salvation


faith


G4102


Lemma:


πίστις


Transliteration:


pístis


Pronounce:


pis'-tis


Part of Speech:


Noun Feminine


Language:


greek


Description:


1) conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it a) relating to God


1) the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ b) relating to Christ


1) a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God c) the religious beliefs of Christians d) belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same


2) fidelity, faithfulness a) the character of one who can be relied on


This does not mean that our works in any way play a role in our salvation but the motivation behind those works is what counts. Is our desire self serving or God serving. Does is stem from a selfish desire like self righteousness and recognition or does it stem from love for others and love for God. Those who believe in Christ and desire to do good works out of love for God and others will be saved despite their imperfections but those who do good works as a means to earn self righteousness will not be saved regardless of whether they believe in Christ or not because the scriptures say that those who seek to justify themselves thru their works have denied the necessity of Christ’s sacrifice.


So when you view the word pisteuo as only pertaining to the definition of the English word believe verses like John 15:1-10 don’t make any sense because it completely eliminates any inner conviction or desire to actually serve God as being a necessity for receiving salvation. If a person has this inner conviction and desire to serve God then he will bear fruit and so long as he keeps this inner conviction he will abide in Christ. Simply acknowledging that Christ existed without any desire to serve God will save no one. This is why the definition of the English word believe does not fit the context of the scriptures and appears to contradict other verses.
 
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Hi.
I'm still wondering about this question of faith alone.
I came across this video and it seemed to have good arguments in it.
If anybody is willing to watch the video, I would be interested in your views. I feel now, after watching this, that the Lutheran doctrine of faith alone is questionable.
Please watch and let me know what you think. Thank you.
Easy with two questions...
1. How many works must one do in order to be justified? (hint Romans 5:1)
2. If not by through faith alone, then what must be added from us?

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
(Rom 3:28)
 
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d taylor

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Hi.
I'm still wondering about this question of faith alone.
I came across this video and it seemed to have good arguments in it.
If anybody is willing to watch the video, I would be interested in your views. I feel now, after watching this, that the Lutheran doctrine of faith alone is questionable.
Please watch and let me know what you think. Thank you.

A person is given Eternal Life when they trust in The promised Messiah for the free gift of Eternal Life. Noting else is needed.

The Gospel of John testifies to this truth.

When a person comes to believe that Jesus is the promised Messiah form the prophecies of the Tanakh and trust in The Messiah for life they have received the free gift of Eternal Life.
 
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zippy2006

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Hi.
I'm still wondering about this question of faith alone.
I came across this video and it seemed to have good arguments in it.
If anybody is willing to watch the video, I would be interested in your views. I feel now, after watching this, that the Lutheran doctrine of faith alone is questionable.
Please watch and let me know what you think. Thank you.

The whole faith vs. works thing can get complicated fast. Soundbytes aren't going to do it justice.

Why do you think the Lutheran view is questionable? Because it conflicts with scripture?
 
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Tellyontellyon

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Why do you think the Lutheran view is questionable? Because it conflicts with scripture?
That's what the video seemed to show.... You've really got to jump through some hoops to have James meaning something opposite to what he says very clearly. It makes more sense to be more critical of how Paul is interpreted. It's not a matter of saying faith alone Vs works alone.
And 'works' doesn't have to be taken as following all the Jewish food laws and circumcision etc., etc., that's what it seems Paul is getting at, not being a good person in general. The way I'm interpreting it right now, the Bible seems to be saying that faith in Jesus is absolutely necessary to be saved, and that is a gift unearned, but, you must also strive to be good and that is also necessary if you are to avoid punishment, even though none is perfect but God.
Otherwise James is being interpreted in a way that is frankly implausible... He's really very clear.
There is more room to manoeuvre with what Paul is saying unless you are really attached to a particular interpretation.
 
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zippy2006

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That's what the video seemed to show.... You've really got to jump through some hoops to have James meaning something opposite to what he says very clearly. It makes more sense to be more critical of how Paul is interpreted. It's not a matter of saying faith alone Vs works alone.
And 'works' doesn't have to be taken as following all the Jewish food laws and circumcision etc., etc., that's what it seems Paul is getting at, not being a good person in general. The way I'm interpreting it right now, the Bible seems to be saying that faith in Jesus is absolutely necessary to be saved, and that is a gift unearned, but, you must also strive to be good and that is also necessary if you are to avoid punishment, even though none is perfect but God.
Otherwise James is being interpreted in a way that is frankly implausible... He's really very clear.
There is more room to manoeuvre with what Paul is saying unless you are really attached to a particular interpretation.

This is a good way to put it. I think you have a good read on it. :oldthumbsup:
 
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BNR32FAN

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So these guys say to ignore the Greek and Hebrew and trust in God’s word in the English translation but only the KJV is correct. This doesn’t make any sense. The translators of the KJV bible were using the same Greek and Hebrew lexicons to translate the KJV bible into English in the first place. Why not take it from the church that was established by the apostles who actually did speak and write Greek and has continued to do so since the church was established? The Eastern Orthodox Church is that Church. They’re also the same church that rejected Luther’s doctrine proposal when he tried to get their approval. James isn’t the only book that teaches works are necessary for salvation. How about Jesus’ message in John 15? The Father cuts off every branch IN ME that beareth not fruit. He who abides in Me and I in him, he beareth much fruit. Jesus was speaking to His 11 faithful apostles, surely that does not mean that this message does not apply to every branch in Him or in other words the body of Christ. So just because it is not addressed to gentiles doesn’t mean that the message does not apply to gentiles. I don’t understand how these men couldn’t see that the definition of the Greek word dikaióō (justified) not only means to be counted or rendered as being righteous by God but also to be shown or evinced as being righteous. James was saying that Abraham was justified (shown to be righteous) by his works and not by his faith alone. Faith without works is dead because he who abides in Christ WILL BEAR MUCH FRUIT. Jesus didn’t say he might bear some fruit or a little fruit He said he WILL bear MUCH fruit. Even Paul said if I have all faith so as to move mountains but I have not love I am nothing. All of these messages from James, Jesus, and Paul revolve around love. Love for God and love for others. A person who has love for God and love for others WILL do good works. Look at the works mentioned by James in James 2:14-15. They’re all works related to love for others just like the message Jesus gave in Matthew 25:31-46. Look at the reason Jesus gave for condemning the goats in verses 42-43.

“"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.'”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:41-43‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Again the same example of works resulting from love or in this case works that didn’t happen as a result of a lack of love on the goat’s part.

It really is much simpler than these guys are making it out to be. They’re resorting to ignoring scriptures because the letter was written to someone else when the message within that letter applies to us all. I mean what do they think James’ point was, that the Jews are justified by works but the Gentiles are justified by faith? Romans 9:30-33 negates that theory.

“What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, just as it is written, " BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭9:30-33‬ ‭NASB‬‬

So what’s the point of saying that James was only written to the Jews if James couldn’t possibly be saying that they are justified (rendered or counted as being righteous by God) by their works? As I just showed Paul just said they didn’t attain righteousness because they pursued it by works and not by faith.

I just don’t get their point. It seems like quite a stretch of an interpretation in order to reconcile or I should say to nullify the book of James in order to coincide with their understanding of Romans 4. “Don’t worry about it, James isn’t written to us”? That still doesn’t explain the many other verses that imply that works resulting from love are necessary for salvation.
 
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RaymondG

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He quoted scripture though and made good use of it, imo.
That is correct. He made use of Scripture to discredited the one asking the question......but not to validate his own position. Then the video cuts out , not allowing us to hear the inquirers response. These are not the tactics of one who holds the truth....in my opinion.
 
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Hi.
I'm still wondering about this question of faith alone.

The Bible has plenty to say in support of faith alone...and also of performing good works.

So there are only several ways of understanding the matter, assuming that we take under consideration the whole of the Bible's teaching.

1. We are saved by doing good things, regardless of whatever we may believe about God, who that God may be, or adherence to any religion. or

2. We are saved by faith and works together. That is to say, they both build merit in the eyes of God which is capable of causing us to be judged as righteous and, therefore, deserving of salvation. or

3. We are saved by faith alone. That doesn't mean that faith IS alone, just that it alone determines our eternal fate. That's faith which produces good works and must produce good works since, if it does not, it's not faith.

So which is it? On these forums we have heard from advocates for all three of the above, but I submit that #3 is the only POV which is in harmony with the testimony of Scripture.
 
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Tolworth John

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I'm still wondering about this question of faith alone

You do know that you do not have to have a perfect theological knowledge of all Christian doctrine, don't you.

All you need to do is admit you are a sinner and accept Jesus as your Lord and Saviour.
Then put that into practise.

Your theological queries about which setvof doctrines is correct or whether this punctuation mark is really relevent etc can follow on later.
 
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