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FAIL! @JamesMartinSJ claims you can’t dismiss false teaching on same-sex unions because Francis...

Discussion in 'One Bread, One Body - Catholic' started by Michie, Oct 26, 2020.

  1. Michie

    Michie Human rights begin in the womb. Supporter

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    ...developed doctrine. Wherein Fr. Z Rants

    Jesuit homosexualist activist James Martin said this on CNN:

    “[Pope Francis] may have in a sense, as we say in the church, developed his own doctrine. We have to reckon with the fact that the head of the church has now said that he feels that civil unions are ok. And we can’t dismiss that…. Bishops and other people can’t dismiss that as easily as they might want to. This is in a sense… this is a kind of teaching that he is giving us.”

    If you watch this dreck (there is a lot that’s bad in it), you will see how he leans in when he stresses “a kind of teaching”.

    “A kind of teaching”? It sure is. It’s a bad teaching. And the claim that people “can’t dismiss it that easily” is laughable on the face of it. The Church herself dismisses that bad teaching.

    More on that later. Martin said another erroneous thing intend to mislead people into thinking that it must be accepted. You, dear reader, aren’t permitted to dismiss this because Francis is the “head of the Church”.

    A Pope is not the “head of the Church”. Christ is the head of the Church (read Col 1:18, Eph 1-22-23, Eph 5:23 with nuptial imagery that does not say, “for the husband is the head of the, you know, the other guy”.

    Going on, Martin the homosexualist says, “Francis, as we say in the church, developed his own doctrine.”

    “As WE say in the church”?!? Who the hell says that?

    The only true, Catholic sense of development of doctrine does not allow contradiction of what has always been taught.

    But what Francis proposed, and what Jesuit Martin constantly champions, contradicts the Church’s teachings.

    And Martin claims we “can’t dismiss” this just because Francis said it.

    Oh yeah?

    We can and MUST dismiss these wicked, misleading claims by Jesuit Martin the homosexualist activist.

    We can and MUST dismiss false teaching no matter what the source.

    Some might say that Francis was just speaking as a private citizen, not as Pope. So what? Even when St. John Paul and Pope Benedict did that, they didn’t contradict the Church.

    Francis contradicted the Church’s teaching, private or official opinion notwithstanding.

    Both Francis and Jesuit Martin have an obligation to bring clarity not confusion, to uphold the Church’s doctrines, not undermine them, to strengthen the brethren, not enervate them through ambiguity, ill-sounding and downright scandalous statements about condoning a civil set up, which is a secular mockery of marriage, in which men inseminate each other’s … whatever.

    Even the slightest appearance of condoning such a thing must be avoided.

    [​IMG]

    That is why the Church teaches, as it did clearly with the approbation of the Vicar of Christ, St. John Paul II through Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith in 2003 that civil unions between people of the same sex, “obscure certain basic moral values and cause a devaluation of the institution of marriage.”

    The CDF taught, with the approbation of St. John Paul – whom Francis thinks should not be Doctor of the Church and whose Magisterium he has been relentlessly undermining since 2013 – that…

    To vote in favour of a law so harmful to the common good is gravely immoral.

    And yet that is precisely what Francis did. That’s what Jesuit Martin advocates and claims that you must accept.

    By the way, that 2003 CDF document, “Considerations regarding proposals to give legal recognition to unions between homosexual persons” was signed on 3 June, the Feast of St. Charles Lwanga and Companions, slaughtered by a homosexual pederast king.

    I would also point to a footnote in that document, which says,

    “It should not be forgotten that there is always “a danger that legislation which would make homosexuality a basis for entitlements could actually encourage a person with a homosexual orientation to declare his homosexuality or even to seek a partner in order to exploit the provisions of the law”.

    Thus, the multiplication of scandal upon scandal, sin upon sin. In this case, sin that “cries to heaven”.

    But Jesuit Martin says that we cannot dismiss Francis’ – the head of the Church’s – own developed doctrine. He is committing scandal.

    Christ is the head of the Church.

    Popes don’t develop doctrine contrary to the Church’s teachings.

    The Church’s teachings about homosexual unions STAND FIRM and UNCHANGED.

    The public positions of Jesuit homosexualist activist James Martin are a clear and present danger to souls.

    He and his superiors will answer to God.

    Continued below.
    FAIL! @JamesMartinSJ claims you can't dismiss false teaching on same-sex unions because Francis developed doctrine. Wherein Fr. Z Rants




     
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  2. Aspzan

    Aspzan Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Has this situation and controversy been clarified yet in any way? All I've heard - from mostly comments online - is that apparently Pope Francis was not translated correctly in the documentary. I hope so. I also wonder what Fr James Martin's response will be if it is confirmed to be a mistranslation and the Pope does not support same-sex unions?
     
  3. Michie

    Michie Human rights begin in the womb. Supporter

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    No clarification. Even had a banner and prayer outside the Vatican asking for clarification. So far, nothing.
     
  4. Aspzan

    Aspzan Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Is there likely to be a clarification? I'm relatively new to how all this works. Although it seems this is a relatively new problem too, in a way.
     
  5. chevyontheriver

    chevyontheriver Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Some say it's mistranslated. Others say it's translated properly. Aside from pope Francis actually stating what he intended it's going to be an exercise in futility to be sure what he intended. And absent the papal clarification people like James Martin can run with it. Who am I to judge what pope Francis really means? James Martin met with the pope. I never did. Who has the inside track into the pope's intentions. Not me.
     
  6. Michie

    Michie Human rights begin in the womb. Supporter

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    No it’s not a new problem with this pope. His history shows he has a long history of not clarifying anything he says. Instead, he lets the media run with it.
     
  7. Aspzan

    Aspzan Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I mean Pope Francis is recent considering how long the Catholic Church has existed.
     
  8. Michie

    Michie Human rights begin in the womb. Supporter

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    Yes. But to some of us it feels like a very long time and are distressed at his witness. Nobody for the most part, are not interested in what the Church really teaches but how they can change it into our image.
     
  9. Aspzan

    Aspzan Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I get what you're saying but the media is saying what he apparently said and he also hasn't clarified so I don't see how the obligation is on you to not suspect something against Catholic teaching may have been said. We can still wait and also give Pope Francis the benefit of the doubt but we can still be concerned too.
     
  10. chevyontheriver

    chevyontheriver Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I looked at this a bit to see if I could give him the benefit of the doubt. From what I see I just can't bend over backwards to make this say something innocuous. So it's up to pope Francis to explain how it doesn't mean what it really does seem to say.
     
  11. chevyontheriver

    chevyontheriver Well-Known Member Supporter

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    There have been somewhere around 270 popes over the centuries. He's just one of them. There will be another. And another. We will have great ones again. And some more poor ones.
     
  12. Aspzan

    Aspzan Well-Known Member Supporter

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    My first response in this thread was (and still is) hoping for Pope Francis to clarify. At the risk of making myself look stupid I feel like you're not just talking about it to me normally. For example:

    Was this sarcasm that I didn't realise? We agree the Pope should make it clear what he meant. Even if the chance is slim he'll do that we can't do much except wait. What if he does make it clear that he does in fact think support should be given to same-sex unions? What then?
     
  13. Michie

    Michie Human rights begin in the womb. Supporter

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    Good question but I don’t know.
     
  14. chevyontheriver

    chevyontheriver Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I would also hope that he will clarify the matter. But I haven't seen him clarify other things that need clarifying, so I hold out little hope of it.

    I'm talking to you about it as I would for anyone else.

    I was being sarcastic, I guess. My bad habit.

    If he clarifies and his clarification is that he clearly wants same sex unions then it's still his private opinion but at least we know what his opinion really is. It doesn't change any teaching, but he does put himself on the outside of that teaching. Right now there are many good faithful Catholics trying hard to do the mental gymnastics to make his comments square with Church teaching and the previously acceptable morality. I did that for a few years early on in his pontificate. But I got strains and sprains and I couldn't do it any more. It's up to him now, and if he doesn't then I can conclude that he likes the ambiguity. It's a much more Episcopalian way of doing things, letting statements mean one thing to one person and the opposite to another. Lewis Carroll would be so proud.

    So, I await clarification. But I'm not going to hold my breath.
     
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  15. AvilaSurfer

    AvilaSurfer Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Fr. Z is cool.
     
  16. chevyontheriver

    chevyontheriver Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I had a class with him, when I audited a Patristics class while he was in seminary. He was cool then too. Bold and orthodox.
     
  17. Michie

    Michie Human rights begin in the womb. Supporter

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    Jealous!
     
  18. chevyontheriver

    chevyontheriver Well-Known Member Supporter

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    He and two other seminarians were three peas in a pod.

    One of the others was for a while at my son's Catholic high school and lead a vocations trip to Italy that my son went on. I should have signed up to be a chaperone. An opportunity missed! Anyhow, he ended up at the cathedral as rector so we would drop in there every few months to see him. My son still keeps in touch and I wouldn't be shocked if he had a vocation simmering still.

    The other one was exiled to be a chaplain at a nursing home because he was too orthodox. He had a radio show where he told it straight that got him exiled. New bishop came along and he has been allowed back in again finally.
     
  19. Michie

    Michie Human rights begin in the womb. Supporter

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    Still jealous but sad too. There is a pattern here. But it really is great that you had personal experience with these people.
     
  20. chevyontheriver

    chevyontheriver Well-Known Member Supporter

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    These were three folks, all seminarians that survived seminary to become priests, who helped make me who I am now. There are great exemplars of the faith out there for us to learn from.
     
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