Fading white evangelicals have made a desperate end-of-life bargain with Trump

[The Barbarian]

I don't think that "they are all lying", is going to be an effective response.

The July 26-28 poll suggested that the country largely disagrees with President Donald Trump’s announcement this week that he will ban transgender personnel from the armed forces.

When asked to weigh in on the debate, 58 percent of adults agreed with the statement, “Transgender people should be allowed to serve in the military.” Twenty-seven percent said they should not while the rest answered “don’t know.”

Democrats mostly supported military service by transgender Americans while Republicans were more evenly split.
Exclusive: Majority of Americans support transgender military service

Most Americans believe transgender people should be allowed to serve in the U.S. military, according to a new poll. The findings come after President Donald Trump decided to bar transgender people from military service.

A Quinnipiac University national poll released Thursday found that 68% of American voters think that transgender people should be allowed to serve. That’s including 55% of voters in military households who support transgender service, according to the poll.

By contrast, 27% of American voters believe transgender people should not be allowed to serve in the armed forces.
Poll: Most Americans Support Transgender Military Service


A poll conducted less than one month prior to President Trump's decision on Wednesday to reverse an Obama-era policy that allowed transgender individuals to serve openly in the military found more people opposed than supported it.

Rasmussen surveyed 1,000 likely voters on the topic in late June, almost exactly one year after then-Defense Secretary Ash Carter announced the shift last summer.

"The U.S. Department of Defense now allows transgender people, those who identify with and want to live as the opposite sex, to serve openly in the military," the survey said. "Is this decision good for the military, bad for the military or does it have no impact?"

Only 23 percent of people surveyed responded that it was good, while 31 percent said it was bad. The largest bloc of respondents, 38 percent, said it has no impact.
Here's what polls say about a transgender military ban

 

[pat34lee]

I think it's a lost cause.
A majority of Americans do not support laws that require transgender people to use bathrooms based on their sex assigned at birth, a new poll finds.

Fortunately, most laws are based on precedent and
moral and ethical values, not popularity. I think that
poll was probably taken in SF, though. In most places,
the numbers are more likely 70-25 against letting them
into the wrong restrooms. And notice they didn't make
any distinction between those having surgery and those
who just cross dress. With the new laws, all a man has
to do is say he's a woman to use their restroom.

 

[pat34lee]

It happened in Germany. It happened in the South of the United States. If you think it can't happen again, you're plainly wrong.

There are about 300 million differences between
today's USA and WW2 Germany. Not to mention
that Germany is only slightly larger than the state
of New Mexico.

 

[Truth7t7]

There are about 300 million differences between
today's W2 Germany. Not to mention
that Germany is only slightly larger than the state
of New Mexico.

There is a liberal and conservative agenda in the world.

Liberals want to kill the unborn, conservative christians want to save them.

Liberals support same sex marriage, conservative Christians oppose it.

Liberals want to take away the right to privacy of (999) women in their public bathroom, and give it to (1) "Bill" who dresses up in women's clothes to take this privacy away. Conservative Christians oppose "Bills" actions as abnormal.

People talk about Nazi Germany, Taking Away Rights, When In Reality It's Those Who Support "Bill".

 

[The Barbarian]

There are about 300 million differences between
today's USA and WW2 Germany.

Not quite:

Not to mention that Germany is only slightly larger than the state of New Mexico.

So it's your argument that very large nations can't fall into this kind of thing?

Here we are in America, with a president bemoaning the fact that we have a free press, and frustrated to find that he can't simply toss his opponents into jail.

No, it can happen here, and very nearly has, several times.

 

[The Barbarian]

Germans, after the war, often remarked that they had no idea that a civilized nation like Germany might descent into the evil that was the Third Reich.

It can always happen here. All that is necessary is for good people to do nothing.

 

[The Barbarian]

Fortunately, most laws are based on precedent and moral and ethical values, not popularity.

That's why transgendered people are now able to use public restrooms.

 

[The Barbarian]

I know that you think that you're responding to what I've said, but all this does is confirm my point: you're going to keep in on insisting that what Christians are doing is going to lead to the return of the Nazis and mass lynchings

No, and there's no reason to be hysterical about it. Freedoms are lost a little at a time, not all at once. Each little step seems to be not all that bad. But at the end, freedom is gone.

while at the same time insist that nothing in the current anti-Christian culture can possibly lead anywhere objectionable.

If you insisted that, then one of us did. Instead of making up ideas and insisting that I believe them, you would be better off making a cogent argument as to why transgendered people shouldn't have the same rights as anyone else.

The sad thing is that you continue using this line of rhetoric even after it has become abundantly clear that no one in this thread is moved by it.

Haven't polled everyone, but I know your claim that no one in this thread agrees with me, is false. So I'm pretty sure you haven't checked, either. If you're going to try to win the day with a dishonest approach, you should at least have enough sense to try one that actually works.

 

[The Barbarian]

This is an issue settled by civility, not by government. Not everything needs government involvement. What pronouns people use and whether they are offended by particular people using a bathroom, is something that should be left up to common sense judgments.

Well said. This rush to outlaw bathroom use by some people is really excessively intrusive, and as you suggest, could easily be dealt with on a less authoritarian basis.

My wife works for a large university medical center. There is one person who uses the ladies room, who appears very mannish. She's pretty sure this person is transgendered. It doesn't bother her, because she never peeks into the stall to see. Apparently, the other women using that restroom have no problem with it, either.

If a 70 year-old grandmother can adapt to this, I'm puzzled as to why anyone else is hyperventilating about it.

BTW, I remain unconvinced that there's any sense in changing gender to something else, but it's really none of my business as long as it doesn't impose on my rights.

 

[hedrick]

I think that
poll was probably taken in SF, though. In most places,
the numbers are more likely 70-25 against letting them
into the wrong restrooms.

In 2016, Pew showed about evenly divided, Americans are divided over which public bathrooms transgender people should use. But acceptance of trans is growing, so today it's probably a bit higher in favor of acceptance (i.e. opposed to bathroom bills).

Opinions on abortion have been fairly stable for 20 years, with a modest majority in favor of being legal. Public Opinion on Abortion. Also, take a look at opinion by age in that report. This, like all the culture wars issues, are a lost cause. Evangelicals might want to consider focusing on Christ, and on public policy issues that are winnable.

Note that when he was questioned during confirmation, Gorsuch said Rowe v Wade was the law of the land. Gorsuch: Roe v. Wade Is the 'Law of the Land' Most people understood him as not favoring reconsideration. I don't think electing Trump in hopes of reversing Row v Wade was a good bargain.

 

[RDKirk]

...how are they going to know who's changed anything without looking? There's nothing that needs to be changed in the bathrooms, but it's cute you seem to think there is.
tulc(thinks these talking points are getting more desperate as time goes on)

The only aspect that would bug me are genderfluids who would not have either the appearance or dress of the sex they're currently feeling--in other words, someone who looks to all the world like a man--hanging out in the women's room. Not every day or even all day. Just the periods this person is feeling womanly.

 

[RDKirk]

Because its current government regulation in many States, that accomodation be made for the other .001 thats why.

Link?


I wouldn't let anyone "hang out in the bathroom" that's also the point.
tulc(wonders when this is going to get to "need to make the special bathroom" part?) [/QUOTE]

A lot of women's rooms have sofas.

 

[tulc]

A lot of women's rooms have sofas.

...really? That would feel pretty weird, walk in to the mens bathroom and there's a couch in it. Weird and a little gross actually.
tulc(isn't ready to have furniture in the mens room)

 

[RDKirk]

...really? That would feel pretty weird, walk in to the mens bathroom and there's a couch in it. Weird and a little gross actually.
tulc(isn't ready to have furniture in the mens room)

Women spend time doing makeup and stuff. They also do a lot more socializing, even with strangers.

 

[MoonlessNight]

No, and there's no reason to be hysterical about it. Freedoms are lost a little at a time, not all at once. Each little step seems to be not all that bad. But at the end, freedom is gone.

There's no need to get hysterical about it... but let me continue to insist that your position is going to lead to the fourth reich.

 

[rjs330]

Ummm... going to disagree with you there. Strongly.

Well "great" is subjective. Has he been great as far as the things he has accomplished. He's been horrible as far as what he says. He says a lot of really stupid things. But he has gotten a lot of good things done.

 

[rjs330]

I didn't say the members of the Republican Party, but the guys leading it? They have no interest in getting it overturned, to them? it's the one thing they can count on to get "the base fired up!" then when they start beating the "abortion drum". It puts boots in the street, bottoms in the seats and votes in the booth. They've gotten their group of single issue voters trained to always do what ever they want simply by saying "Vote for this guy and we can "END ABORTION IN AMERICA!!" (tm) and because the SIV's have been conditioned to always do what they say, they'll vote for anyone (this last election is proof of that) and in the end what happens? Nothing, because they know: as soon as abortion is gone? so pretty much is the Republican Party.
tulc(thought everyone understood this)

Really tulc? The Republicans can't get rid of abortion. They are anti abortion but nothing gets done because the democrats won't allow it and the SC has said its legal. They could pass all the bills they wanted but they know the SC would just strike it down. So what's the point? Just look at what has happened in states that tried. It's a lost cause right now, but maybe someday we can get another SC justice who will overturn Rowe v Wade.

 

[The Barbarian]

There's no need to get hysterical about it... but let me continue to insist that your position is going to lead to the fourth reich.

Would you be happier, if it just returned us to the McCarthy era? I'm thinking that praising Trump for not rounding up Jews and shipping them out in cattle cars is setting the bar way too low.

 

[pat34lee]

Not quite:

I wasn't talking about people.
There are over 300 million guns in America.

 

[tulc]

Really tulc? The Republicans can't get rid of abortion. They are anti abortion but nothing gets done because the democrats won't allow it and the SC has said its legal. They could pass all the bills they wanted but they know the SC would just strike it down. So what's the point? Just look at what has happened in states that tried. It's a lost cause right now, but maybe someday we can get another SC justice who will overturn Rowe v Wade.

...uhmmm...I thought my point was that for all their "anti-abortion" rhetoric (because quite honestly they aren't even sort of "pro-life) they need to keep abortion around to use to keep their base in control. Over turning it is ALWAYS going to be just out of reach because that's where they want it. I've watched them chip away at civil rights and giving tax breaks to the wealthy and they were able to do it because the people who elect them and support them are so convinced if they vote for this guy? It's for sure this time going to happen. And then? The goal post moves another 100 yards and they make their "Those darn Democrats!" speeches and plan how to use the bell for the next thing on the agenda.
tulc(is off to do the garbage at home see you all later!)