FactChecker: Misquoting Francis of Assisi

[Rescued One]

FactChecker: Misquoting Francis of Assisi
is an interesting article that I found online.

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/factchecker-misquoting-francis-of-assisi/

 

[Aussie Pete]

FactChecker: Misquoting Francis of Assisi
is an interesting article that I found online.

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/factchecker-misquoting-francis-of-assisi/

One of my least favourite sayings is, "Preach the gospel. Use words if necessary". It's just nonsense.

 

[Albion]

It's true that certain popular sayings have been attributed to Francis although we either know that they came from another source or else that there is no record of Francis having said them himself.

The one mentioned in this thread is one of those. However, the article from that website ("The Gospel Coalition") is even more wrong when it misrepresents the meaning of the saying, as it definitely does.

 

[charsan]

One saying I love the most is: Preach the gospel at all times and use words if necessary. Which makes a great deal of sense, we should live the gospel so much that no one cannot say we are not believers

 

[Tigger45]

One saying I love the most is: Preach the gospel at all times and use words if necessary. Which makes a great deal of sense, we should live the gospel so much that no one cannot say we are not believers

Right,

James 2:18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.

Is a close biblical equivalent.

 

[Rescued One]

It's true that certain popular sayings have been attributed to Francis although we either know that they came from another source or else that there is no record of Francis having said them himself.

The one mentioned in this thread is one of those. However, the article from that website ("The Gospel Coalition") is even more wrong when it misrepresents the meaning of the saying, as it definitely does.

Can you tell me what the misrepresentation is?

 

[Albion]

Can you tell me what the misrepresentation is?

Hi, Phoebe.

Yes. Here is the paragraph from the TGC article:

"It is always attributed to St. Francis of Assisi—founder of the Franciscan Order—and is intended to say that proclaiming the Gospel by example is more virtuous than actually proclaiming with voice. It is a quote that has often rankled me because it seems to create a useless dichotomy between speech and action. Besides, the spirit behind it can be a little arrogant, intimating that those who “practice the Gospel” are more faithful to the faith than those who preach it."

So there are three different statements attacking the comment attributed to Francis, and each one of them is both grossly unfair to Francis (leading me to wonder if the author really is familiar with the life of the saint) and untrue to the words themselves, quite apart from who said them.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Right,

James 2:18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.

Is a close biblical equivalent.

I don't think they are even close, let alone equivalent.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

from the short page in the link:
"We as evangelicals who claim we are committed to truth are certainly good at spreading falsehood, even if unintentionally. We can do better. "

Some things seem like they might be questioned there in the link,
but mostly it seems okay, on first perusal (not "deep") , and I don't think at all it was meant to be "deep".

 

[Albion]

The point behind the statement by Francis was not that one kind of witnessing is superior to another or that one kind should be used rather than the other, as the article insinuated (even going so far as to say the comment "rankled" the writer). And to label it as "arrogant" is absurd. Anyone who knows the first thing about Francis knows that he was the epitome of a humble servant of the Lord, even if other things about him might be criticized.

The fact is that his followers, the early Franciscans, were mainly uneducated men who couldn't qualify for admission to the older religious orders. His words have to be seen in the light of that reality.

If you cannot speak articulately, if you doubt your abilities to interpret Scripture to non-believers, if you aren't a confident public speaker, any of that, you can still witness by the way you live--loving the Lord, loving other people, disavowing vanity and showiness, etc., all of which is profoundly true to the Gospel.

 

[Tigger45]

I don't think they are even close, let alone equivalent.

Is this a little closer for ya?

Luke 10:25-37

25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”;” and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’

36 “Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?”

37 The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.”

Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”

 

[charsan]

If you cannot speak articulately, if you doubt your abilities to interpret Scripture to non-believers, if you aren't a confident public speaker, any of that, you can still witness by the way you live--loving the Lord, loving other people, disavowing vanity and showiness, etc., all of which is profoundly true to the Gospel.

^ this

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

QUOTE="Tigger45, post: 74513453, member: 314388"]Is this a little closer for ya?
Luke 10:25-37
25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”;” and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’
36 “Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?”
37 The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.”
Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”[/QUOTE
=============================================

What is your reason or your motive ?

If you could save someone 20 years ago from getting diabetes and from getting high blood pressure and from getting heart troubles and from getting obese,
would you do it ?
Or would you stay quiet and let them live and suffer in all those ways without helping them or without telling them what was going to happen ?

 

[charsan]

Right,

James 2:18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.

Is a close biblical equivalent.

Agreed, not everyone can say things with eloquence or brave enough to go to total strangers. One good thing is not being an evangelical I am not pressured to tell everyone everything all the time. I have a friend that felt that pressure of having to talk to everyone and ended up having a break down and after talking to the doctor my friend understood one does not have to do that but can live as a Christian and let that be the witness. Living as a Christian people will come up to you many ties and strike up a conversation which is great because we are not shoving anything down their throats so to speak.

 

[Tigger45]

Agreed, not everyone can say things with eloquence or brave enough to go to total strangers. One good thing is not being an evangelical I am not pressured to tell everyone everything all the time. I have a friend that felt that pressure of having to talk to everyone and ended up having a break down and after talking to the doctor my friend understood one does not have to do that but can live as a Christian and let that be the witness. Living as a Christian people will come up to you many ties and strike up a conversation which is great because we are not shoving anything down their throats so to speak.

I’ve found that character and kindness opens opportunity for sharing the Gospel verses a soap box approach to preaching, especially when the person comes off with a spirit of self righteousness, does more damage to the message than good.

 

[All4Christ]

St John Chrysostom described a good approach for sharing the gospel - the “law of love”, often with words but always with actions. The concept of witnessing through actions and words was taught from antiquity.

“Nothing is more frigid than a Christian who is indifferent to the salvation of others. Indeed I wonder if such a person can be a true Christian. To become a disciple of Christ is to obey his law of love; and obedience to the law brings joy beyond measure and description. Love means to want the best for others, sharing with them the joy of love. So the Christian feels compelled to speak to others about the law of love, and the joy of obeying this law. Of course, many people are shy about speaking to others; in their case actions motivated by love will be a most eloquent testimony. But those who are not shy will surely want to express their joy at every opportunity. There is no need to use fine words or elegant phrases; even the most uneducated people can convey joyful love by the spirit which accompanies their words. Even slaves have been known to convert their masters and mistresses by the sincerity of their speech.” – On Living Simply

 

[Athanasias]

FactChecker: Misquoting Francis of Assisi
is an interesting article that I found online.

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/factchecker-misquoting-francis-of-assisi/

This article is true and good. Don't be fooled the real Francis was no hippie and no effeminate like the liberals and movies portray him. He was a preacher who preached using words ands a ballsy one at that too!


Debunking the Myth of St. Francis as a Modern Ecumenist

 

[Rescued One]

Hi, Phoebe.

Yes. Here is the paragraph from the TGC article:

"It is always attributed to St. Francis of Assisi—founder of the Franciscan Order—and is intended to say that proclaiming the Gospel by example is more virtuous than actually proclaiming with voice. It is a quote that has often rankled me because it seems to create a useless dichotomy between speech and action. Besides, the spirit behind it can be a little arrogant, intimating that those who “practice the Gospel” are more faithful to the faith than those who preach it."

So there are three different statements attacking the comment attributed to Francis, and each one of them is both grossly unfair to Francis (leading me to wonder if the author really is familiar with the life of the saint) and untrue to the words themselves, quite apart from who said them.

I think I see what you are saying. But I believe that living faith is evidenced by our actions. Now that we are children of light, we walk in the light abandoning the works of darkness. We have been changed. I doubt that most Protestants are more than vaguely familiar with Saint Francis.

 

[Athanasias]

I think I see what you are saying. But I believe that living faith is evidenced by our actions. Now that we are children of light, we walk in the light abandoning the works of darkness. We have been changed. I doubt that most Protestants are more than vaguely familiar with Saint Francis.

You certainly are correct in what you say! My point is many liberal Christians(Catholic and protestant) use Francis and lie about what he said to promote not having to verbally talk about Jesus or his church. They also make him out to be a wimp and effeminate and a hippie but the real Francis was none of these things. He was a preacher who was quite verbal about repenting and believing in the Gospel for salvation.

 

[dzheremi]

I don't like the saying, but I do like how one of the hymns teachers at the Coptic monastery/church I went to several years ago put it: "The first rite of the Church is love."

The reason I don't like the saying as attributed to Francis is that we are not to trust in own piety as an evangelistic tool, even while recognizing that it is one. A great many were attracted to the desert by the piety of Abba Anthony, but what kept them there was the endless guidance of his sayings. Maybe if the quote was "Your life should be such that every action -- spoken, written, or by any other means -- draws people to Christ", it would not be so consistently misinterpreted. It also wouldn't be as memorable.

Anyway, by turning the focus back on the Church which sanctifies us through our mystical communion with Him within it, we focus not on personal piety but on the foundation of how we should relate to everyone, whether we are specifically evangelizing or not: with the love of Christ.