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Ezekiel and the Third Temple

Discussion in 'St. Justin Martyr's Corner: Debate an Orthodox Chr' started by trulytheone, Oct 5, 2019.

  1. trulytheone

    trulytheone Member

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    I know that Eastern Orthodoxy considers Zionism to be heretical. But, how do we reconcile the prophecies of Ezekiel, especially about the physical descriptions of the sacrifices and the third temple, with Eastern Orthodox position against Zionism (I am asking this not only for some protestants, but also for Jews who object to Christ's messiahship)? Are there any Church Fathers who did not over-allegorize old testament prophecies such as Ezekiel and that those interpretations are within the bounds of Eastern Orthodoxy? I just do not want interpretations that simply explain away the literal meaning of those texts; explaining them away seems to be one of the marks of cognitive dissonance.
     
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  2. Lukaris

    Lukaris Orthodox Christian Supporter

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    I do not think Zionism applies to this; isn’t it asecular concept? St. Maximos the Confessor stated that most (not all) Christians ( in his time: 7th c.) believed these events were already fulfilled ( Philokalia vol.2).

    People who are Christians & get tangled up in this, I think, are partly reverting to Judaism.
     
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  3. trulytheone

    trulytheone Member

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    Wait I need clarification: how did the Christians view Ezekiel as mostly fulfilled already when, even during the time of the Second Temple, most of the descriptions of the temple's infrastructure, the rituals, and the sacrifices, were different from the one described by the prophet?

    And yes, they are reverting partly to Judaism because it seems that Christianity's justification of its existence seems to be the fact that Christians view the Old Testament prophecies to be symbolic or allegorical (and this led some to view Christianity as having cognitive dissonance as its foundation). This is why I am asking these: I am trying to find out if there is a way to interpret Old Testament prophecies such as Ezekiel without ignoring the plain language of the prophecies themselves and without resorting to the Jewish anti-Christian interpretations.
     
  4. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    personally I don't know the answer, but I gotta agree it wouldn't be a political movement.

    we must remember that every word of Scripture is about Christ and we read it in that light.
     
  5. Lukaris

    Lukaris Orthodox Christian Supporter

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    I was trying to find pdf info of the homilies of St. Gregory the Great on Ezekiel but cannot seem to be able. Here is a link to a book of them: C.T.O.S. — Homilies on the Book of the Prophet Ezekiel.

    In the Orthodox Study Bible (OSB)the footnotes refer primarily to St. Gregory the Great. For Ezekiel 43:13-18, our footnote says, The altar here, as well as the altar in the Church, images the heavenly altar. The altar is “the soul of the righteous man, which lays upon itself before His eyes as many sacrifices as it has done good deeds. And what is the drain of the altar but the patience of good men, which, while it humbles the mind to endure adversities, shows it to be placed low down after the manner of a ditch?...Well, too, the same trench is directed to be one cubit, because, if patience fails not, the measure of unity is preserved.” ( St. Gregory ). The great mercy seat is clearly a type of Christ. ( OSB).

    The blood sacrifice is over & done replaced by the Cross.

    I still think attaching Zionism to this is problematic. Surely it often is but Jews or anyone could not have originally mingled this with what is basically a secular movement which I think has been hijacked by some groups way beyond its original basis: Zionism - Wikipedia
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2019
  6. trulytheone

    trulytheone Member

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    It seems that St Gregory had resorted to explaining the very physical description of the prophecies as allegorical (though I won't judge the whole work yet as I haven't read yet the whole commentary on Ezekiel). But, if all orthodox Christian commentaries on Old Testament prophecies resorted only to allegorical interpretations, then it seems to me that the Jews would simply respond that the orthodox Christian interpretations of OT prophecies were ambiguous and, in effect, useless. I am saying this because of my doubts on Christianity. I really wanted this sorted out.
     
  7. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    not all prophecies are only allegory. some have multiple layers and meanings. just because the Church reads one prophecy as more allegorical, that doesn't mean they all are.

    Christ the King literally sat down on a foal to enter Jerusalem on Palm Sunday, which was predicted in Zechariah.
     
  8. Lukaris

    Lukaris Orthodox Christian Supporter

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    I tend to think also that the allegorical accounts for the transition from blood to bloodless from the old covenant to the new.

    The book of Ecclesiasticus chapter (or Sirach) Douay-Rheims Bible, Ecclesiasticus (Sirach) Chapter 35 explains the change from blood offerings for sin towards what would be how we actually need to repent of sin as the Lord would preach: Matthew 4:17.

    The loss of these in between testament books in many Christian groups is something they should re-examine.
     
  9. prodromos

    prodromos Senior Veteran Supporter

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    You obviously can't have spent any time reading Jewish interpretations of Scripture.
     
  10. Not David

    Not David Someday an Orthodox

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    What about the ones talking about Israel Father? When I was Evangelical, they said that most of the prophesies were accomplished when the nation of Israel was created and the Jews went there.
     
  11. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    Israel is the Orthodox Church, so it would depend on which prophecy.
     
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