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Ezekiel 39.

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by PhillipLaSpino, Aug 28, 2014.

  1. PhillipLaSpino

    PhillipLaSpino Achieve; don’t plunder!

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    When do you understand the following verses are to be fulfilled?

    1. Before the Tribulation begins;

    2. 3 1/2 years before the Tribulation begins and into the first half 3 1/2 of the Tribulation (7 years):

    3. During the Tribulation;

    4. After the Tribulation;

    5. Other.


    Give any verses that come to mind, or tell us if your comments are personal opinions.

    Ez.39:9 "And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire (paraphrased) "all the weapons of war" and they shall burn them with fire seven years."

    Ez.39:12, And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying them (their enemies in the last days) that they may cleanse the land."

    Keep in mind ver.9 speaks of 7 years.

    Phil LaSpino
     
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  2. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Verses 1-16 are about Gog/Magog taking place right before the 7 years. Gog/Magog precedes the arrival of the Antichrist, as the Antichrist in Daniel 8 comes from the EU, staging his army in Greece, with the intention of staving off Gog/Magog. He arrives in Israel, as the prince who shall come, Daniel 9.

    He arrives late, as God supernaturally destroys Gog's army. The 7 years of burning the war implements equate to the 7 year time of the Antichrist following Gog/Magog.

    1. Ezekiel 39:1-16 Gog/Magog

    2. between the lines - 7 years of the Antichrist

    3. Ezekiel 39:17-20 Armageddon feast

    4. rest of chapter from the perspective of Jesus having returned, reigning from King David's throne in Jerusalem

    It's that simple. You guys are making it awfully complicated.
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2014
  3. Rev20

    Rev20 Partial Preterist

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    My comment is, that was a lot of wooden weapons.

    :)
    .
     
  4. PhillipLaSpino

    PhillipLaSpino Achieve; don’t plunder!

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    Dougg, what is your time-frame for the anti-Christ; is it when tribulation begins, or in the middle of the tribulation?

    Phil
     
  5. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Good question, Phil. Let me refine what I am saying, by looking more carefully at the terms.

    Jesus, the true Christ, is the rightful King of Israel, Son of David, God's messiah.

    The Antichrist will be a person who becomes the illicit King of Israel, Son of David, someone that God did not choose. But that he fancies himself to be in that role.

    The little horn is the person who will become the Antichrist. The ten king kingdom forms before Gog/Magog happens. And before the 7 years begin.

    Out of that kingdom, the little horn will emerge as the leader, Daniel 7. Once established as the leader, shortly thereafter, Gog/Magog starts to materialize. The little horn will seek to stave it off, to prevent it from happening, to keep the peace in the region.

    That's what Daniel 8 is about. Him standing up (like animals do on their hind legs, right before they clash) out of that ten king kingdom. He comes from the north and west from Israel, from the territory of one of the former breakup kingdoms - Greece.

    Since there is no indication in Ezekiel 38/39 of him actually participating in the destruction of Gog's army, I am assuming that he gets there (Israel) late, after God supernaturally destroys Gog's army. All of that takes place right before the 7 years.

    There are a couple of ways the little horn's activity could play out. He could plan on bringing his army into Israel as a deterent to any invading forces of Gog. Or he could simply show a massive show of strength by having his army mobilized in Greece. Either way, he ends up in Israel, with the EU army and the region - which the Europeans are going to take advantage and occupy the oil rich middle-east oil fields.

    Up to this point, the little horn is not the Antichrist if we stick to our definitions.

    Right after Gog's destruction, the Jews will be euphoric because all of their enemies will have been completely destroyed, and the temple mount freed from the muslims' presence.

    The Jews right now, if you go to some of their websites, believe the messiah will come following Gog/Magog. They're primed.

    Following Gog/Magog, the Jews will believe that they are on the threshold of the messianic era, and will perceive the little horn to be that guy. Which to qualify, the little horn has to be a Jew, and has to fight the battles of God in defending Israel. And his religion must be Judaism. Which of course denies that Jesus is the messiah.

    So the little horn fancing himself as the messiah, his ego tremendous, will play the role and will accept being anointed as the King of Israel, Son of David, most likely the anointing ceremony done by the false prophet. It is then that he officially becomes the "Antichrist".

    In that capacity, as the Antichrist, anointed King of Israel (illicit), he resets the 7 year cycle, the commemorative reading, a law that Moses made in Deuteronomy 31:10-11, which has been lost because the Jews have not controlled the temple mount for the past 2000 years at least. The commemorative reading confirms that God, by the Mt. Sinai, covenant gave the promised land to the children of Israel, forever.

    Which that ceremony on the temple mount will be the confirming of the covenant in Daniel 9:27, and the beginning of the 7 years.

    Some people by tradition call the 7 years, the tribulation period, but that is actually not in the bible using that terminology.

    In the middle part of the seven years, the Antichrist, illicit King of Israel, becomes convinced in his heart that he is God - because long term in the background he will have been tapping into the occult, via Kaballah - for his success. And makes the move to stop the daily sacrifice and oblation, sitting in the temple as God. Revealing himself as the man of sin.

    So technically, his Antichrist, King of Israel, Son of David, escapade is over at that time. The Jews will reject him as their king, and will recognize Jesus as the rightful king at that time. What tips the scales, will probably be the testimony of the two witnesses telling them all along not to trust in the Antichrist, and of the two witnesses testifying about Jesus.

    btw, side note, the two witnesses will probably begin their 1260 day testimony, a month after confirming of the covenant, because there is a one month makeup (leap month) to synchronize the 360 day/year with the 365 day calendar year at some point during the 7 years.

    After revealing himself as the man of sin, he goes on to be become the beast of Revelation. For ease of discussion, we say Antichrist, but technically, he is no longer in the role of being the Antichrist for those last 42 months.

    The 7 years in Ezekiel 39, following Gog/Magog, I wrote is the 7years of the Antichrist - but that was using "Antichrist" for ease of discussion, conveyance of the 7 years confirmation cycle. The person will actually be in the Antichrist role for only about half of that time.
     
  6. karen4you

    karen4you Member

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    :thumbsup:
     
  7. Rev20

    Rev20 Partial Preterist

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    The so-called "antichrist" in Daniel 8 was, in fact, Antiochus IV, a descendant of one of Alexander the Great's captains. Everyone knew this history until some unknown (or some unknown group) took the books of the Maccabees out of the King James Version (conveniently for some, I might add). The Apocrypha, which included the Maccabees, was part of the King James Version for over 250 years until the 1880's. Between the Maccabees and the Works of Josephus, there is a rather detailed narrative of Antiochus IV's exploits.

    This is how Daniel 8 was fulfilled, beginning in vs.8.

    "Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven." --Dan 8:8

    The he goat was Alexander the Great, and the four notable ones were four of his friends (captains) who ultimately gained control of his kingdom. Josephus mentions this in Antiquities XI.8.7.

    This is the reference to Alexander's death in the Maccabees:

    "And it happened, after that Alexander son of Philip, the Macedonian, who came out of the land of Chettiim, had smitten Darius king of the Persians and Medes, that he reigned in his stead, the first over Greece, And made many wars, and won many strong holds, and slew the kings of the earth, And went through to the ends of the earth, and took spoils of many nations, insomuch that the earth was quiet before him; whereupon he was exalted and his heart was lifted up. And he gathered a mighty strong host and ruled over countries, and nations, and kings, who became tributaries unto him. And after these things he fell sick, and perceived that he should die. Wherefore he called his servants, such as were honourable, and had been brought up with him from his youth, and parted his kingdom among them, while he was yet alive." -- 1 Mac 1:1-6 LXX

    There were initially five "kingdoms", but after "continual wars" (Antiquities XII.1.1), there were four: Lysimachus, Cassander, Seleucus, and Ptolemy.

    "And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land." -- Dan 8:9

    That little horn was one of the descendants of Seleucus, named Antiochus IV, also called Epiphanes (Antiquities XII.4.11). The Maccabees is more matter of fact:

    "And there came out of them a wicked root Antiochus surnamed Epiphanes, son of Antiochus the king, who had been an hostage at Rome, and he reigned in the hundred and thirty and seventh year of the kingdom of the Greeks." -- 1 Mac 1:10 LXX

    This is the remainder of the context in Daniel:

    "And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down. And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered. Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?" -- Dan 8:10-13

    Daniel 8:24 identified the "stars" as the holy people:

    "And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people." -- Dan 8:24

    The "hosts" were the children of Israel, generally:

    "And it came to pass at the end of the four hundred and thirty years, even the selfsame day it came to pass, that all the hosts of the Lord went out from the land of Egypt." -- Exo 12:41

    Antiquities XII.5.4 begins:

    "4. Now it came to pass, after two years, in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twentyfifth day of that month which is by us called Chasleu, and by the Macedonians Apelleus, in the hundred and fifty-third olympiad, that the king came up to Jerusalem, and, pretending peace, he got possession of the city by treachery;" [Antiquities XII.5.4]

    That was mentioned in Daniel 11:21, where he comes "peaceably", but obtains the kingdom "by flatteries". The first chapter of Josephus' Wars of the Jews states that Antiochus spoiled the temple and stopped the daily sacrifice, which fits Dan 8:11-12:

    "The king [Antiochus] being thereto disposed beforehand, complied with them, and came upon the Jews with a great army, and took their city by force, and slew a great multitude of those that favored Ptolemy, and sent out his soldiers to plunder them without mercy. He also spoiled the temple, and put a stop to the constant practice of offering a daily sacrifice of expiation for three years and six months." [Wars of the Jews I.1.1]

    In contrast, the daily sacrifice in 1st century Jerusalem ceased to be offered because they ran out of men to offer it, not because anyone forbade it:

    "1. AND now Titus gave orders to his soldiers that were with him to dig up the foundations of the tower of Antonia, and make him a ready passage for his army to come up; while he himself had Josephus brought to him, (for he had been informed that on that very day, which was the seventeenth day of Panemus, [Tamuz,] the sacrifice called "the Daily Sacrifice" had failed, and had not been offered to God, for want of men to offer it," [Wars of the Jews VI.2.1]
    .

    Everything fits Antiochus IV. This is how the Maccabees refers to Antiochus in his death:

    "And the man, that thought a little afore he could reach to the stars of heaven (Dan 11:37), no man could endure to carry for his intolerable stink." -- 2 Mac 9:10 LXX

    Even the 1290 and 1335 days of Daniel 12:11-12 have a simple explanation. This is from a famous commentary:

    "As to this epoch, which probably is prophetically germinant and manifold; the profanation of the temple by Antiochus: (in the month Ijar of the year 145 B. C., till the restoration of the worship by Judas Maccabeus on the twenty-fifth day of the ninth month (Chisleu) of 148 B. C., according to the Seleucid era, 1290 days; forty-five days more elapsed before Antiochus’ death in the month Shebat of 148 B. C., so ending the Jews’ calamities [Maurer]);" [Jamieson, Fausset & Brown, "A Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible." S. S. Scranton Co., 1873, p.649]

    And another with different details:

    "The event fixed from which the time of the trouble is to be dated, from the taking away of the daily sacrifice by Antiochus, and the setting up of the image of Jupiter upon the altar, which was the abomination of desolation. They must reckon their troubles to begin indeed when they were deprived of the benefit of public ordinances; that was to them the beginning of sorrows; that was what they laid most to heart. [2.] The continuance of their trouble; it shall last 1290 days, three years and seven months, or (as some reckon) three years, six months, and fifteen days; and then, it is probable, the daily sacrifice was restored, and the abomination of desolation taken away, in remembrance of which the feast of dedication was observed even to our Saviour's time, John x. 22." [Matthew Henry, "Henry Commentary Vol IV (Isa to Mal)." Christian Classics Ethereal Library, 1712, p.1595]

    As explained by Matthew Henry, the Jews created a new celebration called the feast of dedication after Antiochus was defeated by Judas Maccabees. The feast of dedication, also known as Hanukkah, was mentioned in the Gospel of John:

    "And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter." -- John 10:22
    .

    Virtually all the older commentators tell the same story. This is Keil & Delitzsch:

    "According to 1 Mace, i. 10 ff., the violent assaults of Antiochus against the temple and the Jews who remained faithful to the law began in the 143d year of the era of the Seleucidae, but the abomination that maketh desolate, i.e. the idol-altar, was first erected on Jehovah's altar of burnt-offering, according to 1 Mace. i. 54, in the 145th year of the Seleucidae, and the purification of the temple from this abomination, and its re-consecration, took place on the 25th day of Kisleu (9th month) of the year of the Seleucidae 148. According to this, from the beginning of the desecration of the temple by the plundering of its vessels and its golden ornaments (1 Mace. i. 20 ff.) to its restoration to its right condition, more than five years passed." [Keil & Delitzsch, "Biblical Commentary on the Old Testament: the Book of Daniel." T & T Clark, 1872, p.303]

    And some modern commentaries present the same history:

    "Verse 8 recounts how the he-goat magnified himself, but at the very height of his power his horn was broken. This reference is to the sudden death of Alexander the Great in 323 B.C. Instead of "the great horn" there arose four horns in its stead. Historically, after a period of struggle, the empire of Alexander was divided by four generals. Cassander held power in Greece, Lysimachus ruled over Anatolia, Syro-Mesopotamia was under the rule of Seleucus, and Egypt was controlled by Ptolemy. These are the "four conspicuous horns" which shared the heritage of Alexander's expansive domain and power." [Carl G Howie, "The Laymans Bible Commentary Vol 13: Ezekiel & Daniel." John Knox Press, 1961, Dan. 8:8, p.125]

    "The "little horn" magnified itself against "the Prince of the host," stopped burnt offerings, and overthrew the sanctuary. Antiochus did overthrow the high priest and replace normal worship with a Grecianized abomination. He took control of the Temple, which he apparently looted in 168 B.C., and for more than three years no proper offering was made there. The Temple was occupied and controlled by the heathen ruler." [Carl G Howie, "The Laymans Bible Commentary Vol 13: Ezekiel & Daniel." John Knox Press, 1961, Dan. 8:11, p.125]

    "To strike and to destroy without warning is typical of this kind of tyrant (vs. 25). Yet it is probable that this reference had a specific incident in view. In 168 B.C. the Syrian general, Appolonius, came in peace to the turbulent city of Jerusalem; but when all was quiet, he fell upon the helpless people and carried out a bloody massacre for the king (see I Mace. 1:29-32). The Temple was sacked and afterward Zeus instead of the Lord was worshiped there. This treachery was an unforgettable moment in the tragedy of Jewish history." [Carl G Howie, "The Laymans Bible Commentary Vol 13: Ezekiel & Daniel." John Knox Press, 1961, Dan. 8:25-27, p.127]

    .

    Regarding Daniel 9, the prince who was to come was Titus, whose armies (people) destroyed Jerusalem in AD70.

    :)
    .
     
  8. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Anitochus was not time of the end. He is not the little horn.

    Titus did not confirm the covenant with many for 7 years. He is not the prince who shall come. The 70 weeks are still incomplete.
     
  9. PhillipLaSpino

    PhillipLaSpino Achieve; don’t plunder!

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    “Many can argue causes; a fool will argue with a petty mouth and bitter words because his cause is weak; a wise man will decide a cause because he can communicate without irony or sarcasm.”

    Dougg and Rev.20.

    Both of your commentaries were well thought out and written. These are the sort of discussion necessary to get to the truth, I did enjoy both!

    I believe throughout scripture we see type and anti-type. I also believe what you both described are just a prelude to that which is coming. I also understand the Muslims will play a major role in the end time scenario.

    Again thanks for the commentaries.

    Phil LaSpino
     
  10. dfw69

    dfw69 Senior Veteran

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    I don't see how....Muslims are using primitive weapons and Israel has the latest technologies..it's a slaughter...unless Russia equips Isis...and US backs Israel..then it's ww3..

    And for what?...so that in the end ...a false messiah will rule from Jerusalem.....and many move to the promise land...only to eventually be faced with the true man of sin yet to come...and the wrath of god
     
  11. Rev20

    Rev20 Partial Preterist

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    Chapter 8 said nothing about the "end of time", but rather the end of the indignation:

    "And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be." -- Dan 8:19

    I can see how verse 17 could easily be taken out of context, because the context is found several verses before; but verse 19 clears up any misconception.

    The "end of the indignation" is celebrated every year with the feast of dedication, also called Hanukkah, which was created when the temple was rededicated after Antiochus defiled it. John Gill's commentary reads:

    Ver. 19. And he said, behold, I will make thee know, etc.] Or, “make known unto thee”; what he knew not, even things future: particularly what shall be in the last end of the indignation; the indignation of God against the people of Israel, in the sore affliction and persecution of them by Antiochus, which he suffered to be; here the angel suggests that that should not remain always, but should have an end; and he would inform the prophet what should be at the close; or rather, as Noldiusf398 renders it, “what shall be unto the last end of the indignation”; all that should come to pass from the beginning of the Persian monarchy, signified by the “ram”, quite through the Grecian monarchy, designed by the “he goat”, unto the end of the persecution by Antiochus; for, certain it is, the angel informed the prophet of more things than what concerned the last part and, closing scene of these sorrowful times; even of all the above said things, which intervened between the setting up of the Persian monarchy, and the sufferings of the Jews in the times of Antiochus; and so Aben Ezra (1092-1167) interprets it, here

    “is declared the wrath of God upon Israel in the days of wicked Greece, and in the days of Antiochus, until the Hasmonaeans cleansed the temple:”

    for at the time appointed the end shall be; the end of that indignation or affliction, and so of this vision or prophecy: there was a time appointed by God for the fulfilment of the whole; and when that time was come all would be accomplished; the indignation would cease, and the persecution be at an end.

    Daniel 8:19 Commentary - John Gill's Exposition of the Bible
    .

    Christ confirmed the covenant with Israel for 7 years (one week); half during His ministry, and half by His disciples after He was cut-off ("cut off out of the land of the living" --Isa 53:8). He said he was only sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, and he sent his disciples only to the lost sheep, initially.

    One of the first acts after the day of Pentecost (the day on which the children of Israel received the promise of the father -- Luke 24:49; Acts 1:4), was Peter confirming the covenant with the children of Israel.

    "Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities." -- Acts 3:25-26

    At the end of the week (which fulfilled the 70 week prophecy), the Gentiles were allowed into the kingdom with the conversion of Cornelius. That also fulfilled Amos 9:11-12 (See Acts 15:14-17).

    The arrival of the prince, Titus, and the destruction of Jerusalem occurred about 40 years after the 70 weeks were fulfilled.

    :)
    .
     
  12. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    The last end of the indignation will be the "last" one, not Antiochus.

    In Matthew 24, Jesus prophesied the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, in the future sense. And Paul spoke of the man of sin sitting in the temple of God, claiming to be God. Paul was not speaking about Antiochus.

    The vision is for the time of the end as it says in verse 17.

    And none of the apostles wrote any such thing about Jesus having confirmed the covenant with Israel for 7 years. The apostles were making all sorts of arguments as to why Jesus was the messiah - but they never made that argument.
     
  13. Rev20

    Rev20 Partial Preterist

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    There were two abominations of desolation, Doug: one in the days of Judas Maccabeus by Antiochus IV (past tense for Christ); and the other under Titus when the Roman armies came on the holy soil (future tense for Christ.)

    Christ was referring to the abomination under Antiochus when speaking to his disciples because that is the only one they would have been familiar with. The one that occurred under Titus would not happen for another 40 years.
    .

    What does it say after that, Doug? I can take one or two verses from here and there, and I can "prove" virtually anything in the Bible. But I would be a false teacher if I took even a single syllable out of context. This is verse 17, in context, from the King James Version, Septuagint (LXX), and Young's Literal Translation:

    "So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision. Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright. And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be. The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king." -- Dan 8:17-21 KJV

    "And he came and stood near where I stood: and when he came, I was struck with awe, and fell upon my face: but he said to me, Understand, son of man: for yet the vision is for an appointed time. And while he spoke with me, I fell upon my face to the earth: and he touched me, and set me on my feet. And he said, Behold, I make thee know the things that shall come to pass at the end of the wrath: for the vision is yet for an appointed time. The ram which thou sawest that had the horns is the king of the Medes and Persians. The he-goat is the King of the Greeks: and the great horn which was between his eyes, he is the first king." -- Dan 8:17-21 LXX

    "And he cometh in near my station, and at his coming in I have been afraid, and I fall on my face, and he saith unto me: Understand, son of man, for at the time of the end [is] the vision. And in his speaking with me, I have been in a trance on my face, on the earth; and he cometh against me, and causeth me to stand on my station, and saith: Lo, I--I am causing thee to know that which is in the latter end of the indignation; for, at the appointed time [is] the end. `The ram that thou hast seen possessing two horns, [are] the kings of Media and Persia. And the young he-goat, the hairy one, [is] the king of Javan; and the great horn that [is] between its eyes is the first king;" -- Dan 8:17-21 YLT

    Who were the Medes and Persians? The kingdoms of Cyrus and Darius; the ones who defeated the kingdom of Babylon (Dan 5:28-31); the ones who allowed Israel to return from captivity and rebuild their temple and city (2 Chr 36:22-23; Ezra 1:1-3; Ezra 5:12-13; Ezra 6:1-5).

    And who was the king of the Greeks (Hebrew: also the race of Yavan or Javan) who defeated the Medes and Persians? Alexander the Great.

    This is all found in other places in the scriptures and the Maccabees of the King James apocrypha; and much of it is recorded by the historian Flavius Josephus. The only way to project those historical events into the future is to spiritualize the scriptures, which I do not recommend.
    .

    Seven years was the time prophesied by Daniel. It was fulfilled by Christ for 3.5 years until he was cut off (killed); and by the disciples until the kingdom was taken away from Israel and given to everyone (Jew and Gentile).

    This is all well-recorded and well-established. This is Luke, Paul and Peter:

    "Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant; The oath which he sware to our father Abraham," -- Luke 1:68-73

    "Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities." -- Acts 3:25-26

    "Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:" -- Rom 15:8

    "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;" -- 1Pet 2:9

    These are commentaries, old and new:

    "Now the whole period of our Saviour's Teaching and working of Miracles is said to have been three-and-a-half years, which is half a week. John the Evangelist, in his Gospel, makes this clear to the attentive. One week of years therefore would be represented by the whole period of His association with the Apostles, both the time before His Passion, and the time after His Resurrection. For it is written that before His Passion He shewed Himself for the space of three-and-a-half years to His disciples and also to those who were not His disciples: while by teaching and miracles." [William John Ferrar, "Eusebius: Proof of the Gospel Vol II." MacMillan & Co., 1920, Book VIII, p.135-136]

    "And moreover, half through this week, during which He confirmed the said Covenant with many, the sacrifice and libation was taken away, and the abomination of desolation began, for in the middle of this week after the three-and-a-half days of His Teaching, at the time when He suffered, the Veil of the Temple was torn asunder from the top to the bottom, so that in effect from that time sacrifice and libation were taken away, and the abomination of desolation stood in the holy place, inasmuch as the Being had left them desolate, Who had been from time immemorial till that day the guardian and protector of the place." [William John Ferrar, "Eusebius: Proof of the Gospel Vol II." MacMillan & Co., 1920, Book VIII, p.136]

    "The consummation again of the national existence is connected with the crime of ''the many" in rejecting the Gospel covenant, which was offered to them exclusively during the last week, one week only, before the calling of Cornelius, when the Gospel is offered equally to all nations, and the consummation of the national existence is determined to be poured upon the already desolate Jewish rebels." [Alexander Arthur, "A Critical Commentary on the Book of Daniel." Norman MacLeod, 1893, p.146]

    I don't agree with all the details provided by Eusebius and Arthur, but their general themes are biblical.

    :)
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  14. Interplanner

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    your comment about 2 desolations doesn't hit the mark. Yes they did know of the past one. But if you are told to look for one, you go with what clues you have and the past is a guide, not an obstacle. But you can't say it wouldn't mean anything to them. Josephus said he knew there would be a leader of a 'rebellion that desolates' (8:13) from his priesthood training.

    The path through Dan 9 is also a clue. Israel's in deep debt. Messiah will atone for that, but also would be cut down and abandoned. That should disturb any reader, especially when the passage is also referring to an abomination that would desolate. I think the average reader who put 2 and 2 together would see a connection.
     
  15. Rev20

    Rev20 Partial Preterist

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    Just so you know where I am coming from, Josephus said this:

    "Daniel wrote that he saw these visions in the Plain of Susa; and he hath informed us that God interpreted the appearance of this vision after the following manner: He said that the ram signified the kingdoms of the Medes and Persians, and the horns those kings that were to reign in them; and that the last horn signified the last king, and that he should exceed all the kings in riches and glory: that the he-goat signified that one should come and reign from the Greeks, who should twice fight with the Persian, and overcome him in battle, and should receive his entire dominion: that by the great horn which sprang out of the forehead of the he-goat was meant the first king; and that the springing up of four horns upon its falling off, and the conversion of every one of them to the four quarters of the earth, signified the successors that should arise after the death of the first king, and the partition of the kingdom among them, and that they should be neither his children, nor of his kindred, that should reign over the habitable earth for many years; and that from among them there should arise a certain king that should overcome our nation and their laws, and should take away their political government, and should spoil the temple, and forbid the sacrifices to be offered for three years' time. And indeed it so came to pass, that our nation suffered these things under Antiochus Epiphanes, according to Daniel's vision, and what he wrote many years before they came to pass. In the very same manner Daniel also wrote concerning the Roman government, and that our country should be made desolate by them." [Flavius Josephus, "The Complete Works: Antiquities of the Jews." Christian Classics Ethereal Library, Book X.11.7, pp.572-573]

    I agree with Josephus that there were two similar events: one by Antiochus IV; and another by the Roman government (not to mention a Jewish sedition leaders named John of Gischala).

    This is more on Antiochus:

    "6. When therefore the generals of Antiochus's armies had been beaten so often, Judas assembled the people together, and told them, that after these many victories which God had given them, they ought to go up to Jerusalem, and purify the temple, and offer the appointed sacrifices. But as soon as he, with the whole multitude, was come to Jerusalem, and found the temple deserted, and its gates burnt down, and plants growing in the temple of their own accord, on account of its desertion, he and those that were with him began to lament, and were quite confounded at the sight of the temple; so he chose out some of his soldiers, and gave them order to fight against those guards that were in the citadel, until he should have purified the temple. When therefore he had carefully purged it, and had brought in new vessels, the candlestick, the table [of shew-bread], and the altar [of incense], which were made of gold, he hung up the veils at the gates, and added doors to them. He also took down the altar [of burnt-offering], and built a new one of stones that he gathered together, and not of such as were hewn with iron tools. So on the five and twentieth day of the month Casleu, which the Macedonians call Apeliens, they lighted the lamps that were on the candlestick, and offered incense upon the altar [of incense], and laid the loaves upon the table [of shew-bread], and offered burnt-offerings upon the new altar [of burnt-offering]. Now it so fell out, that these things were done on the very same day on which their Divine worship had fallen off, and was reduced to a profane and common use, after three years' time; for so it was, that the temple was made desolate by Antiochus, and so continued for three years. This desolation happened to the temple in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twentyfifth day of the month Apeliens, and on the hundred fifty and third olympiad: but it was dedicated anew, on the same day, the twenty-fifth of the month Apeliens, on the hundred and forty-eighth year, and on the hundred and fifty-fourth olympiad. And this desolation came to pass according to the prophecy of Daniel, which was given four hundred and eight years before; for he declared that the Macedonians would dissolve that worship [for some time]. [Flavius Josephus, "The Complete Works: Antiquities of the Jews." Christian Classics Ethereal Library, Book XII.7.6, p.657]

    1. AT the same time that Antiochus, who was called Epiphanes, had a quarrel with the sixth Ptolemy about his right to the whole country of Syria, a great sedition fell among the men of power in Judea, and they had a contention about obtaining the government; while each of those that were of dignity could not endure to be subject to their equals. However, Onias, one of the high priests, got the better, and cast the sons of Tobias out of the city; who fled to Antiochus, and besought him to make use of them for his leaders, and to make an expedition into Judea. The king being thereto disposed beforehand, complied with them, and came upon the Jews with a great army, and took their city by force, and slew a great multitude of those that favored Ptolemy, and sent out his soldiers to plunder them without mercy. He also spoiled the temple, and put a stop to the constant practice of offering a daily sacrifice of expiation for three years and six months." [Flavius Josephus, "The Complete Works: Wars of the Jews." Christian Classics Ethereal Library, I.1.1. p.1093]
    .

    Notice that Antiochus "put a stop to" the daily sacrifice (Dan 8:11). But in the first century, the sacrifice failed for the lack of men:

    "1. AND now Titus gave orders to his soldiers that were with him to dig up the foundations of the tower of Antonia, and make him a ready passage for his army to come up; while he himself had Josephus brought to him, (for he had been informed that on that very day, which was the seventeenth day of Panemus, [Tamuz,] the sacrifice called "the Daily Sacrifice" had failed, and had not been offered to God, for want of men to offer it, and that the people were grievously troubled at it,) [Flavius Josephus, "The Complete Works: Wars of the Jews." Christian Classics Ethereal Library, Book VI.2.1, p.1465]

    :)
    .
     
  16. Rev20

    Rev20 Partial Preterist

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    I forgot to mention that I agree that you go with that you know. What I have been leading up to is, I believe the desolations in the seventy weeks are so figurative, it is doubtful they would mean very much to anyone, until fulfilled (and not too many after that. :) ) But the disciples would understand the combo Christ gave them of "Abomination of Desolation/Jerusalem Surrounded by Armies", because it was a part of their history.

    Anyway, that is what I believe, for now.

    :)
    .
     
  17. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Although I don't agree that the abomination of desolation Jesus was speaking of, had anything to do with Titus - if you are saying Titus did the abomination of desolation, then Antiochus was not the "last" abomination of desolation, by your statement. Which Antiochus would not be the little horn of Daniel 8.



    Sure, and a person can also take a word and apply one of the many definitions that most words have and by doing that to a series of words in a sentence completely alter the meaning of the sentence.

    There is no argument about the Medes and Persians. So you are wasting our time over something that is not disputed.

    So? No-one is arguing that the King of Greece is in the text of Daniel 8, as being a king.

    No, no-one is arguing about those points.

    The point is that in Daniel 8:8, it is the four direction of the four kingdoms that is in focus. And that in Daniel 8:22, it is only Alexander the king referenced, but not the follow up kings. It is their kingdoms, not the kings themselves.

    22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

    The little horn waxes strong from one of the geographic regions that was once one of the four kingdoms, at the time of the end.


    If that were the case, then the messiah would be cut off at a 1/2 week interval. But the text indicates after 69 weeks (62+7), not after 69 and 1/2 weeks.
    Those text don't quantify Jesus doing something according to 3 1/2 years. It is just not there. They are not making a Daniel 9, confirmation of the covenant for 7 years argument.

    Those are third tier sources you are providing. I go by the original source, the bible.
     
  18. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    So you are saying that the little horn has to be a Jew, right? So, the little horn can't be Antiochus.

    Yes, 2P1P. God saves the Jews and the gentiles by one plan, Jesus's dying on the cross for our sins. Yet, the Jews have yet to embrace him, so that takes place during the great tribulation, the time of Jacob's troubles.
     
  19. Interplanner

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    Josephus said he understood that figure in 8:13 to be a Jewish revolutionary.
     
  20. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    So accordingly, that would mean according to Josephus's position, Antiochus could not be the little horn, right?

    btw, what figure in Daniel 8:13? The only figures in Daniel 8:13 are two saints talking to one another.

    13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
     
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