Extremism in Climatology

Loudmouth

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No. Fundamental changes also would affect climate...obviously!!

They would affect everthing, and in a bad way. If you haven't noticed, creationists have been arguing for a fine tuned universe for a long time. They argue that if the fundamental forces of nature were just a little different then life would be impossible in this universe.

What do you argue? You argue just the opposite. You argue that the fundamental forces can be changed willy nilly with no threat to life or anything.

So who do you think is right? You or the fine-tuners?

This is news!!!?? But actually we do not need to change what we have, we (God) simply may have needed to take away something that was also here as a force, and then the remaining stuff would need to get along the best way it knew how! Regardless of how God will manke the new heavens and earth, and their laws, the main thing is that they will be made, and be different than what we have now...obviously. It sure seems to me that in a bible past where trees could grow in weeks, that this would probably not have been under ice!

You need more than made up stories.

Absurd. The One who created the world knows how and what to change in a wonderful way! The chaos and random universe exploding nonsense is nothing more than ignorance based fear mongering.

And yet you can't point to a single piece of evidence that is inconsistent with a same state past.
 
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dad

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The difficult bit would be coming up with a conclusion that is supported by more than your fantasies.
Hey, when we see remains of cold blooded animals in the high arctic, that tells me something were different! No fantasy..just fossil facts.
Then show us the math with God included in the equations.
Easy to do. Rather than calculate so many degrees warmer, we need to realize that wicked men will chew their tongues under the great heat of the sun which gets much much much much hotter in the very end of man's days of rule here on earth. There also will be great wars, and destruction of trees, and atmospheric changes, and ocean changes, and etc etc etc. The foolish predictions of a few degrees cooler or warmer are absolute tripe.
 
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Loudmouth

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Hey, when we see remains of cold blooded animals in the high arctic, that tells me something were different! No fantasy..just fossil facts.

A same state past explains it just fine. Ever heard of plate tectonics?

Easy to do. Rather than calculate so many degrees warmer, we need to realize that wicked men will chew their tongues under the great heat of the sun which gets much much much much hotter in the very end of man's days of rule here on earth. There also will be great wars, and destruction of trees, and atmospheric changes, and ocean changes, and etc etc etc. The foolish predictions of a few degrees cooler or warmer are absolute tripe.

I'm not seeing any numbers.

Show us the math. No more made up stories. Show us the science and the math.
 
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fargonic

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I wonder if results desired often come into play?

They do not.

:) Scientists are like lawyers, in that we can hire them to prove whatever nonsense we want to pay to say is right.

If you mean that scientist are human and there are some unethical ones out there, then yes. But to say that scientists in general are like that is to conduct a vicious and scurillous attack on people you do not know.

It would be akin to someone saying Christians are liars because there are a few Christians who have lied at some time.

(obviously this does not usually include honest and godly men and women of science-although some of these seem to be eager to please men, and defend ungodly nonsense that they should know better if they knew God and His word)

So you are saying there are godly people out there who don't know God?

Or are you saying that there are godly scientists out there who happen to disagree with you?
 
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leftrightleftrightleft

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A fully sensible reply that I fully respect. I wish many others would be as clear, informative, and balanced in discussing AGW issues.

Thanks for the compliment, but you answered none of my questions. You didn't provide the citation that I asked for. You didn't even really acknowledge the points of my post at all.

But you may want to see what other scientists are saying about the physics behind "CO2 induced atmospheric warming". To start, which might be surprising, is the references to the physics used by the GAGW camp. It will surprise you how such rigorous physics has not been petformed. Apparently the climatologists were already bias toward AGW and settled on incomplete and untested radiation and thermodynamic energy transfer physics.
(emphasis mine).

Citation needed.

To my knowledge, the theories behind radiation and thermodynamic energy transfer are well-understood, well-tested and foundational to many applications in medicine, telecommunications, engineering, and astronomy among others.

An example of the sloppy science behind radiation energy transfer and conversion to mechanical energy is the erroneously used term "greenhouse". Without convection, like in an enclised car, radiation can build up mechanical energy and increase tempersture, as we well know by experience. But such does not occur aroynd the car. The reason is convection. Greenhouses reduce or eliminate heat transfer by convection. Such stsrt the history of incomplete and rigorous physics behing AGW.

A greenhouse is just a convenient analogy. Any climate scientist is well-aware of the limitations of the analogy. It is still a useful analogy for explaining to lay-people rather than getting into the complexity of radiation spectra, blackbodies, etc.

The heat capacity of oceans on earth are hugh and have thermal momentum, be it cooling or heating, that are not easily changed in short time scales. The earths thermodynamic heat transfer and cooling processes are enormous, and are the first order parameters that control earth's temperature. 150 ppm additional CO2 since 1900 in collected watts/m2 is miniscule over the past century compared to the energy budget and heating and cooling processes already established in the earths climatic systems.
(emphasis mine)

Citation needed.

The bolded bit doesn't even make sense. "Heat transfer" is not a parameter which control's earth's temperature. Is the Earth heating up or not? What is causing the heating?

So Alarmism was premature, as you note. And I fully agree we cannot predict the future.

What do you propose we do about the current warming trend which is largely caused by human-produced CO2?

But observations will continue to teach us more about the net effects of increased atmospheric CO2, and more rigorous investigation of the physics will help us explain what we observe.

Indeed. Just like has been occurring for the last 100 years.

How long do observations need to be collected before you would recognize that human-produced CO2 is a primary driver of the observed warming trend?

Additionally, we are no where near the point of acting on a potential problem when to date it does not exist other than through hype and extremism distortion. We have been in the Modern Warming Period brought about by natural factors, and no one has any idea of what 150 ppm additional CO2 in the atmosphere has contributed, particularly in taking first order presidency over the enormous thermal heat transfer systems and cycles displayed on earth. Wirh the size of the Pacific Ocean, the miniscule amount of re-emitted down dwelling radiation is not even to be considered in creating an equator-pole gyre circulation, the amount of energy required is not even close to be considered - yet we do not see this energy transfer and energy budget prrsented clearly and in balance in Activism climatology publications and press releases.

Citations needed. The Pacific Ocean will absorb much of the excess heat created from human-produced atmospheric CO2. You're correct.

What should we do about it?

I think we have another problem to face - the effects of Extremism and Alarmism in our atmospheric sciences, news median and political groups.

Sensationalism in news media is common on any topic, not just climate science. Gotta sell papers.
 
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dad

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They do not.
Easy to say. However, studies are started to prove points sometimes, and scientists are hired...scientists sometimes that are likely to agree, just like aq lawyer...for hire to those who can afford to pay. They may think it is ethical.

If you mean that scientist are human and there are some unethical ones out there, then yes. But to say that scientists in general are like that is to conduct a vicious and scurillous attack on people you do not know.
When they wanted to make a weapon that could kill hundreds of millions of people and wreck up the planet, they hired scientists. When they wanted bio weapons they hired scientists. If I wanted a study done showing genetically modified wheat was better than natural wheat, I would hire scientists. Etc.
It would be akin to someone saying Christians are liars because there are a few Christians who have lied at some time.
You are right. They are. All men are liars. However, Christians have Christ inside working on them, and if they are genuine, we would likely see a lot less lying.

So you are saying there are godly people out there who don't know God?
Duh.
Or are you saying that there are godly scientists out there who happen to disagree with you?
Godly is a funny word, with little meaning when we use it to encompass all so called believers who do not really believe in any real way.
 
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dad

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A same state past explains it just fine. Ever heard of plate tectonics?
Yes, ever heard of a crock? There are aspects of plate tectonics that are right...however, most of the fable is beyond the ability and reach of man to be able to know or prove. Yes the plates moved...whooopee do.
I'm not seeing any numbers.
A third of the oceans will turn to blood earlier on in the tribulation and all of them later. That is numbers. God's climate predictions simply do not match the climate shyster's predictions of 3 degrees or whatever.


The bible is not made up, it is demonstrated fact. The predictions are all bang on, unlike the foolish old wive's tales cloaked as climate change science.
 
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fargonic

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When they wanted to make a weapon that could kill hundreds of millions of people and wreck up the planet, they hired scientists.

Actually if you want to understand the depth and reality of the development of the Atomic bomb it is a bit more nuanced than that. People who were desperately afraid a very real, immense evil in the form of Hitler and the Nazis knew that science was pointing to the fact that nuclear reactions held an alarming amount of energy. The original intent was make that type of bomb before the "bad guys" got it.

Once VE day happened and the scientists realized how far behind Heissenberg and the rest of the German program and that Germany didn't have an atomic bomb, many of the scientists who developed the American bomb did NOT want it used on Japan. And many of the top scientists in the Manhattan Project lobbied Truman to do a "demonstration explosion" on an unihabitted island to show the Japanese what we had, rather than drop it on people.

The scientists were not hired to create evil, they were following two very human impulses: to explore the unknown and fear of being hurt by someone (the Nazis).

Beyond the original atomic bomb, Teller helped spur the development of the hydrogen bomb (an obvious extension) since he, like so many other Hungarians, had been displaced by the Nazis and took to heart a very fear-based view of geopolitics. Once it turned into a fight against another evil (The Cold War) the ball kept rolling. But it wasn't science qua science that drove this. It was fear and politics.

Godly is a funny word, with little meaning when we use it to encompass all so called believers who do not really believe in any real way.

Do you not think there are people of faith who believe differently from you about the nature of reality? About a "same state past"? About deep time?

Are they ungodly if they disagree with your hypotheses about these things?
 
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dad

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Actually if you want to understand the depth and reality of the development of the Atomic bomb it is a bit more nuanced than that. People who were desperately afraid a very real, immense evil in the form of Hitler and the Nazis knew that science was pointing to the fact that nuclear reactions held an alarming amount of energy. The original intent was make that type of bomb before the "bad guys" got it.
Too bad sin makes all men bad guys unless saved by Christ. I do not believe God wants the bombs. So I figure those hired to make em were either evil or duped.

Once VE day happened and the scientists realized how far behind Heissenberg and the rest of the German program and that Germany didn't have an atomic bomb, many of the scientists who developed the American bomb did NOT want it used on Japan. And many of the top scientists in the Manhattan Project lobbied Truman to do a "demonstration explosion" on an unihabitted island to show the Japanese what we had, rather than drop it on people.
God bless them for that. Maybe they got the drift that they had been useful idiots for hell.
The scientists were not hired to create evil, they were following two very human impulses: to explore the unknown and fear of being hurt by someone (the Nazis).
They were hired and did make evil. Therefore unless you claim there is no devil and demons and spiritual influences, you cannot say that they were not used.


By their fruits you know them.


Beyond the original atomic bomb, Teller helped spur the development of the hydrogen bomb (an obvious extension) since he, like so many other Hungarians, had been displaced by the Nazis and took to heart a very fear-based view of geopolitics. Once it turned into a fight against another evil (The Cold War) the ball kept rolling. But it wasn't science qua science that drove this. It was fear and politics.
The demons and evil warmongers used the scientists and still do. No excuses.

Do you not think there are people of faith who believe differently from you about the nature of reality? About a "same state past"? About deep time?
Doesn't matter. I align my beliefs with Scripture.

Are they ungodly if they disagree with your hypotheses about these things?
They are pushing ungodly ideas if we inspect the ideas and find they have no God anywhere in sight!
 
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Heissonear

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What do you propose we do about the current warming trend which is largely caused by humans .........

How long do observations need to be collected before you would recognize that human-produced CO2 is a primary driver of the observed warming trend ...........

What should we do about it?

.

You clearly state the current warming trend (increase in earths temperature) has become driven by human released CO2 into earths atmosphere.

1. What were the natural factors that caused the earth to warm SINCE the Little Ice Age (earth's warming since about 300 years ago)?

2. What is the date when the "change from natural climate factors" changed to become "driven by human released CO2 into earth's atmosphere"?

3. What percentage of earths current warming is now natural factors verses due to man's released CO2? --- Let's say the "percentage in 1998" - since there has been a pause in earth temperature increase since 1998.

.
 
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Loudmouth

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.

You clearly state the current warming trend (increase in earths temperature) has become driven by human released CO2 into earths atmosphere.

1. What were the natural factors that caused the earth to warm SINCE the Little Ice Age (earth's warming since about 300 years ago)?

The largest factors wold probably be the thermohaline currents and changes in albedo.

2. What is the date when the "change from natural climate factors" changed to become "driven by human released CO2 into earth's atmosphere"?

That would be the day when atmospheric green house gases started to increase dramatically due to the burning of fossil fuels.

Do you understand how thermodynamics works? When a body receiving a set amount of energy loses the ability to radiate some of that heat, what happens? Does the body get warmer?

3. What percentage of earths current warming is now natural factors verses due to man's released CO2? --- Let's say the "percentage in 1998" - since there has been a pause in earth temperature increase since 1998.

.

No other natural factor has changed dramatically that can account for the sudden warming, so I would say that the vast majority is directly or indirectly due to CO2 from the burning of fossil fuels.

Also, there is no pause in the warming. If a 500 lb man stops gaining weight for a week, has their been a pause in his obesity? We STILL have elevated temperatures due to the burning of fossil fuels. It hasn't gone anywhere.
 
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Heissonear

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Have we not heard that CO2 is causing our oceans to acidify?

Are there publications and documentations presenting evidence that manmade CO2 is acidifying of the oceans?

For example, the below link graph:

Hawaii Carbon Dioxide Time-Series

For those interested in possibly jumping from the Alarmism Bandwagon, the pH data in the graph is from a model, it is not measured data plotted.

Want to learn how the oceans are not acidifying?

Want to learn how the oceans could never acidify by release of manmade CO2 through burning hydrocarbons?

Read here, including info from the commenters section, and search/study the geochemistry of the oceans.

Touchy Feely Science – one chart suggests there’s a ‘pHraud’ in omitting Ocean Acidification data in Congressional testimony | Watts Up With That?

Extremism in Climatology is alive and unfortunately duping many. So is Fraud in Climatology.

.
 
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fargonic

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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, 'Lucida Sans Unicode', 'Microsoft Sans Serif', 'Segoe UI Symbol', STIXGeneral, 'Cambria Math', 'Arial Unicode MS', sans-serif]Want to learn how the oceans are not acidifying?
[/FONT]

Just curious how they COULDN'T acidify. Here's the simple chemical reactions:

Eq789sm.png


Want to learn how the oceans could never acidify by release of manmade CO2 through burning hydrocarbons?

Does manmade CO2 act differently from regular CO2?


Wow. Just wow. I'm kind of confused by this time series. It appears that Wallace has taken all the data in the ocean <= 200m depth and just averaged it??? Really??? That's absurd! Who does that? I don't think that is how the ocean works. There are CURRENTS in the ocean. It isn't like the upper 200m of water are just homogenously mixed!

I'm no oceanographer but just lumping all the data into a big bowl and puking out the mean is next to meaningless.

It would be like reporting the "average temperature" for the earth over time. CLimatologists use the TEMPERATURE ANOMALY since the earth is not one single temperature to look at temp trends.

I would think it more meaningful to take a pH anomaly for a global dataset. Considering that there's upwelling in certain areas and down welling in others etc.

Extremism in Climatology is alive and unfortunately duping many. So is Fraud in Climatology.

.

Again with the accusations of fraud. Perhaps if one thinks about what is being presented it might cause some pause before such accusations are leveled.
 
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leftrightleftrightleft

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Once again, you didn't really address many of the points I made in my previous post. You also didn't give any citations that I asked for. So, if you are just going to continue to spew random, un-cited, made-up facts that have no basis in reality, then unfortunately our conversation will not last very long. I lose my patience when you keep repeating the same old questions without addressing anything new.

.

You clearly state the current warming trend (increase in earths temperature) has become driven by human released CO2 into earths atmosphere.

What is your hypothesis for the cause of the warming trend? If you say, "We just don't know" then you are ignoring the elephant in the room: trillions of tons of carbon dioxide gas emitted into the atmosphere since the mid-1800s.

1. What were the natural factors that caused the earth to warm SINCE the Little Ice Age (earth's warming since about 300 years ago)?

Solar irradiance, albedo, volcanos, sunspot cycles, etc. These are all well-known and well-studied and are included in most (if not all) climate models.

2. What is the date when the "change from natural climate factors" changed to become "driven by human released CO2 into earth's atmosphere"?

If you see the link above, it states that the most rapid historical rise in CO2 in the past was about 89 ppm over the course of 7500 years. We, via burning oil and gas products, have raised the CO2 concentrations by 116 ppm in just 150 years.

Natural forcings still exist. Its not like they disappeared. But the observed increase in temperature and CO2 concentrations can't be accounted for by using natural forcings. We would need to see certain noticeable changes in solar irradiance, a disruption of Milankovich cycles or a marked increase in volcanism. We haven't seen any of those things. So, we are left with the elephant in the room: trillions of tons of previously-sequestered carbon dioxide.

3. What percentage of earths current warming is now natural factors verses due to man's released CO2? --- Let's say the "percentage in 1998" - since there has been a pause in earth temperature increase since 1998

(Emphasis mine: Citation needed.)

Lean et al (1995) did a fairly comprehensive study of solar irradiance and its forcings on the climate. They concluded that from 1610 to approximately 1800, the majority of climatic forcing was based on solar irradiance changes (aka Little Ice Age, Maunder minimum). From 1800 to 1970, they estimated that about half of the warming was attributable to increased solar irradiance. And from 1970 to 1995, only about a third of the warming was attributable to solar irradiance.

Since 1995, solar irradiance has actually been decreasing and this may be one reason why the observed temperature trends are on the lower end of the error bounds of most models. The Earth is still warming, just more slowly than anticipated.

What should we do about it?
 
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dad

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A crock is where you invent a past with different fundamental laws in order to make fantasies true.
It was no fantasy that John said Jesus created the world, or that Scripture talked of heaven and a new earth, and Eden, etc. Nothing invented there. The invention is the alternate creation stories that are wholly based on the unproven same state past nonsense.
 
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Heissonear

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Once again, you didn't really address many of the points I made in my previous post. You also didn't give any citations that I asked for. So, if you are just going to continue to spew random, un-cited, made-up facts that have no basis in reality, then unfortunately our conversation will not last very long. I lose my patience when you keep repeating the same old questions without addressing anything new.



What is your hypothesis for the cause of the warming trend? If you say, "We just don't know" then you are ignoring the elephant in the room: trillions of tons of carbon dioxide gas emitted into the atmosphere since the mid-1800s.



Solar irradiance, albedo, volcanos, sunspot cycles, etc. These are all well-known and well-studied and are included in most (if not all) climate models.



If you see the link above, it states that the most rapid historical rise in CO2 in the past was about 89 ppm over the course of 7500 years. We, via burning oil and gas products, have raised the CO2 concentrations by 116 ppm in just 150 years.

Natural forcings still exist. Its not like they disappeared. But the observed increase in temperature and CO2 concentrations can't be accounted for by using natural forcings. We would need to see certain noticeable changes in solar irradiance, a disruption of Milankovich cycles or a marked increase in volcanism. We haven't seen any of those things. So, we are left with the elephant in the room: trillions of tons of previously-sequestered carbon dioxide.



(Emphasis mine: Citation needed.)

Lean et al (1995) did a fairly comprehensive study of solar irradiance and its forcings on the climate. They concluded that from 1610 to approximately 1800, the majority of climatic forcing was based on solar irradiance changes (aka Little Ice Age, Maunder minimum). From 1800 to 1970, they estimated that about half of the warming was attributable to increased solar irradiance. And from 1970 to 1995, only about a third of the warming was attributable to solar irradiance.

Since 1995, solar irradiance has actually been decreasing and this may be one reason why the observed temperature trends are on the lower end of the error bounds of most models. The Earth is still warming, just more slowly than anticipated.

What should we do about it?

.

Looking at your reply content:

1. Natural climate factors exist, but are wimpy in changing AND controlling earth's atmospheric temperature since the LIA

2. Solar irradiance is the only real driver of earths temperature variations. At this point in earth history solar radiance is the only first order natural factor governing earths temperature - other natural factors are second or lower order contributors

3. Manmade CO2 placed in the atmosphere is like a temperature control knob - the more ppm levels added the more earth temperature is "driven higher" (increased)

4. Earths last decade of increased temperature is CORRELATED to be the reason for the Modern Warming of earths temperature we have recorded. Meaning, correlation is the causation. Computer models confirm it (althought all models charted do not follow the observed earths temperature for the past 20 years)

5. Trillions of tons of CO2 placed in earths atmosphere HAS TO do something - it's a hugh amount that HAS to. Meaning the vast amount released WILL increase earths temperature.

Sorry, but the above is not correct interptetation of temperature observations on earth and therefore not following the scientific method.

Observation shows no "HAVE TO" increase earths temperature, because the past 16 to 18 years temperature records show no rate - mind you at the highest amount of CO2 placed/present in the atmosphere period on earth.

If the earth heating rate "paused" (flattened out/no further increase in earths temperature) then the down dwelling LWIR returned by the ATM CO2 must not be happening. Right?

We cannot have from about 40 to 100 ppm manmade CO2 take over (become responsible) for the majority of the heating of earth we observed in the 20th century but in the first 14 years of the 21st century at about 110 ppm CO2 no continue to raise earths temperature. Right.

Let's look at the data and observations. They show CO2 IS NOT first order influence on earths temperature. It cannot be since the earth has experienced "a Pause" in the rate of heat up. And should it be called "a Pause"?

But you state above that as the CO2 increased in earths atmosphere it accounted for and induced about two-thirds of the earths increased temperature experienced in the 20th century - that would be a serious first order control in inducing temperature increase of earth. But it stopped heating, by observation of measurement data.

The hypothetical "CO2 took over the observed heating up of the earth" is not backed by true observation, only by temporal correlation, since in the past 16 to 18 years correlation can not be applicable.

.
 
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leftrightleftrightleft

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Looking at your reply content:

1. Natural climate factors exist, but are wimpy in changing AND controlling earth's atmospheric temperature since the LIA

2. Solar irradiance is the only real driver of earths temperature variations. At this point in earth history solar radiance is the only first order natural factor governing earths temperature - other natural factors are second or lower order contributors

3. Manmade CO2 placed in the atmosphere is like a temperature control knob - the more ppm levels added the more earth temperature is "driven higher" (increased)

4. Earths last decade of increased temperature is CORRELATED to be the reason for the Modern Warming of earths temperature we have recorded. Meaning, correlation is the causation. Computer models confirm it (althought all models charted do not follow the observed earths temperature for the past 20 years)

5. Trillions of tons of CO2 placed in earths atmosphere HAS TO do something - it's a hugh amount that HAS to. Meaning the vast amount released WILL increase earths temperature.

Sorry, but the above is not correct interptetation of temperature observations on earth and therefore not following the scientific method.

Observation shows no "HAVE TO" increase earths temperature, because the past 16 to 18 years temperature records show no rate - mind you at the highest amount of CO2 placed/present in the atmosphere period on earth.

-"Climate" is defined as a 30 year average. So you can't start talking about shorter time scales when throughout this discussion we have been talking about longer timescales.
-The Earth's atmosphere is still warming up in the last twenty years, just more slowly than expected. This may be because of decreased solar irradiance, or the fact that the ocean is absorbing more CO2 than anticipated.

Based on the physical principles and basic causality you have an "If X, then Y" scenario. But the statement must be somewhat nuanced: "If atmospheric CO2 concentrations increase and there is no other factors considered, then the Earth's average atmospheric temperature will increase."

But, other factors must be considered, like oceanic absorption, volcanic eruptions, solar irradiance, etc. But even when you account for those things, the concentration of CO2 is the elephant in the room which nicely accounts for the warming trend.

If the earth heating rate "paused" (flattened out/no further increase in earths temperature) then the down dwelling LWIR returned by the ATM CO2 must not be happening. Right?

Or solar irradiance has decreased slightly. Or the oceans are absorbing much of the excess heat. Its not like because of a slight decrease in the rate of increase in temperature, that we suddenly can just throw out the basic physics of IR spectra and radiation absorption. (And remember, the Earth is not now cooling but rather the rate of increase has only decreased marginally). This may be because of the decrease in solar irradiance starting around 2000 until 2010. The irradiance is now increasing again as the 11-year solar cycle starts up again.

These are small pauses and increases. Very minor when looking at long term (aka 30+ year) trends. The elephant in the room still lingers...

We cannot have from about 40 to 100 ppm manmade CO2 take over (become responsible) for the majority of the heating of earth we observed in the 20th century but in the first 14 years of the 21st century at about 110 ppm CO2 no continue to raise earths temperature. Right.

You're focusing too much on short term variations which are likely due to 11-year sunspot cycles.

bf8f6e133bfd1bc41cee69be3aeb18f8fc5aea45.gif


You can see on the above plot that there are roughly decadal ups and downs but the upward trend on longer time scales (30+ year averages) is undeniably upwards.

Elephant in the room?


Let's look at the data and observations. They show CO2 IS NOT first order influence on earths temperature. It cannot be since the earth has experienced "a Pause" in the rate of heat up. And should it be called "a Pause"?

Have you ever invested in stocks? If you go to Google Finance and type in a company name, you can very easily scroll to view the companies performance on different time scales: 1 day, 5 day, 1 month, 3 month, 6 month, etc.

If you are investing in a long-term stock, do you look at the 1 day trend or the 10 year trend?

When talking about climate change, you have to look at longer term trends. Yes there has been a slight pause. There was a "pause" in the 1910s, the 1950s, the 1970s, and the 2000s. But look at this graph and tell me if you can discern a conspicuous trend:

201201-201212.png


Elephant in the room?

But you state above that as the CO2 increased in earths atmosphere it accounted for and induced about two-thirds of the earths increased temperature experienced in the 20th century - that would be a serious first order control in inducing temperature increase of earth. But it stopped heating, by observation of measurement data.

The hypothetical "CO2 took over the observed heating up of the earth" is not backed by true observation, only by temporal correlation, since in the past 16 to 18 years correlation can not be applicable.

.

What should we do about the observed increase in temperature?

What implications are there in a warmer world?

What should we do about our habits of overconsumption and insatiable appetite for using up Earth's resources?

These are the questions we should be asking and discussing in political and environmental circles. This insistent denialism (which serves no purpose) is a distraction.
 
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Heissonear

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Let's examine the magnitude of earths natural climate cycles and natural processes, and develop a proper perspective of factors dominating earths surface temperature. Let's start by what you have stated.

1: Elephant in room stated as the humongous release AND EFFECT of CO2 in earth's atmosphere

2. Climate trends should be at least "30 years" to normalize as a trend

3. Current Pause in earth's atmospheric heating means nothing

4. CO2 increase in the atmosphere is formost the first order factor in 20th century Global Temperature Increase


My reply to the above is:

A). Misinformation is presented - the "first order" perspective that 120 ppm additional atmospheric CO2 is the elephant in room is incorrect.

The oceans on earth account for roughly 90% of earths atmospheric temperature. The oceans have massive thermal inertia, and require massive amounts of energy in order to change their temperature (from cooling down trend or from a warming up trend) - and it will take an extremely long time to thermally change by heat input from only 120 ppm additional CO2 in earth's atmosphere - that amount of heat input to change the ocean's direction and rate of heating would be an extremely slow event. Meanwhile the oceans would dominate the atmospheric temperature during that lengthy period.

Presenting that 120 ppm additional CO2 in the earths atmosphere as the most dominate first order factor controlling the earth and the oceans temperatures is misinformation and poor science.

B). You missed the elephant and its thermal dominance on earths temperature, and equated ~120 ppm CO2 in the atmosphere as enormous and accounting for two-thirds of earths global increase in temperature over the past decade. How can you be off in perspective and fundamental science that much?

The Pacific Ocean at the equator spans about 50% of earths surface! And there are north and south current gyre with physical transfer of warm equator waters polewards. That is a heap of thermal and mass transfer every moment.

Add to the polewards gyre process the duration of the gyre cycle times in decadal and multi-decadal periods and the compare such thermal transfer over time to the thermal transfer created overtime by ~120 ppm in the atmosphere - what we see is there is no comparable energy transfer between these two processes. You may have forgotten the amount of mass and the expanse that the ocean have.

C). Third is the elephants magnitude of behavior. The heat capacity of the atmosphere compared to the earth's oceans is two extremes. If all of the earth was smooth there is enough water to cover the earths surface with two miles (10,000 ft) of water.

Most of the atmospheres mass is within the first 12,000 ft, with about 50% of the atmosphere mass at about 5,000 ft elevation. Again, thermal capacity and heat transfer are at extremes when the atmosphere is compared to the oceans.

D). Downdwelling LWIR from GHG (like CO2) cannot penetrate the oceans surface more than 1 to 2 millimeters. The result is induced evaporation (endothermic process - a natural cooling event) on the surface of the oceans. If CO2 is going to impart any heat to the oceans it will need to warm the atmosphere where the the process of conduction followed by convection takes place at the ocean-atmosphere interface.

However, the evaporation process creates molecular rise andbin mass create thermal convection cell dynamics where the heat is transported upwards and condenses in equatorial convection cells whereby releasing heat (exothermic process) and then, as heat does, further rise in the atmosdphere will cool the residual heated air further in the aloft 50,000 to 200,000 ft air domain, which at those altitudes the air temperatures are at or below -40°C.

The result, natural factors, conditions, and processes dominate the effects of CO2 gas in the atmosphere above the oceans, and the ocean gyre and natural oscillations dominate the heating/cooling processes within and over the oceans.

In short 120 ppm additional CO2 in earths atmosphere is nothing close to an elephant in the room. Unless you have an Extremist view of what CO2 in the atmosphere WILL DO, WHICH IS THE EXTREME INCREASE in earths temperature hypothesis.

Again, natural factors and process account for what is called the Modern Warming Period since the Little Ice Age. Extremism of what 120 ppm CO2 WILL DO is un-needed and is the promotion of out-of-focus climate science and incomplete presentation of the natural processes and events that controls and changes earths atmospheric temperatures over time.

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