Explaining the Trinity - Soul, body, spirit

[neon_knights]

I've heard many a time from Protestants, and sometimes Catholics, that man, created in the image of God, is a triune being: with a soul, body, and spirit. According to this statement, God would also be triune in that manner, that the Father is the Soul, the Son is the Body, and the Spirit is the Spirit.

Man A Trinity (Spirit, Soul, Body) | Bible.org - Worlds Largest Bible Study Site

Is this an "orthodox" (small O) explanation of it? Is there any heresy involved here? It seems to make sense to me...

If there is any heresy in this theory, how would you Orthodox (big O)believers explain the Trinity?

 

[ExOrienteLux]

I'm not too sure about this one. We would say that the only differences between the Divine Persons are these:

The Father is unoriginate and the Source of all things.
The Son is begotten of the Father; He does not proceed.
The Spirit proceeds from the Father; He is not begotten.

When we speak of man being made 'in the image of God,' we usually mean that we are endowed with free will and a sub-creative power (ie. we can't create ex nihilo, but we can create ex paleo), and that we have a conscience which points us to the Good.

You can't equate the Son with the 'body', because He wasn't always incarnate. In addition, we wouldn't say that we have a body, soul, and spirit. We would say that we have a body, spirit, and a nous. It is the nous that's created in imago Dei, because all the other animals (and the plants, as well) have bodies and spirits. Man alone is endowed with the nous.

Hope this helps.

 

[Knee V]

Analogies for the Trinity can be dangerous, as most are quite erroneous.

When it comes to the Trinity, as strong of a drive we have to make analogies and explanations, He is someone that is revealed, not explained. The Trinity is Someone, and not an idea. Ideas are explained, but persons are known. We can grow to KNOW the Trinity, but we cannot explain Him. The Church has articulated a few things about the Trinity in order to safeguard us from error (so that we can know that we're knowing the same God Who has revealed Himself to us), but what has been articulated is very little. But as we grow to know Him, we are aided by the boundaries set up for us, such as in the Creed.

 

[wayseer]

I've heard many a time from Protestants, and sometimes Catholics, that man, created in the image of God, is a triune being: with a soul, body, and spirit. According to this statement, God would also be triune in that manner, that the Father is the Soul, the Son is the Body, and the Spirit is the Spirit.

Man A Trinity (Spirit, Soul, Body) | Bible.org - Worlds Largest Bible Study Site

Is this an "orthodox" (small O) explanation of it? Is there any heresy involved here? It seems to make sense to me...

If there is any heresy in this theory, how would you Orthodox (big O)believers explain the Trinity?

As a neophyte to Orthodoxy I would image that anyone who attempts to arrive at some definitive answer to the mystery that is God will inevitable lapse into trite explanations - as does the author, Lehman Strauss. As Saint Gregory Palamas writes, the Holy Fathers affirm unanimously that it is impossible to find a name to manifest the nature of the uncreated Trinity (The Triads III (ii) 5.10).

Sometimes not knowing is the best it gets.

Orthodoxy is more incllned to take a apophatic approach towards God where God is describe by what he is not rather than attempting the impossible.

But one of the things the intellectualizing West abhors is a vacuum and Lehman Strauss is yet another from the Western Church who tries to fill the void with the empty ramblings of those who ascribe to the 'we have all the answers' doctrine.

If you are seriously looking and seeking God could I urge you to read some basic books on Orthodoxy rather than wasting time with 'the next BIG idea' for the day.

 

[Knee V]

Christ taught us how to know the Trinity:

"Deny yourself, take up your cross, and follow Me."

"Easy" as 1-2-3!

 

[neon_knights]

As a neophyte to Orthodoxy I would image that anyone who attempts to arrive at some definitive answer to the mystery that is God will inevitable lapse into trite explanations - as does the author, Lehman Strauss. As Saint Gregory Palamas writes, the Holy Fathers affirm unanimously that it is impossible to find a name to manifest the nature of the uncreated Trinity (The Triads III (ii) 5.10).

Sometimes not knowing is the best it gets.

Orthodoxy is more incllned to take a apophatic approach towards God where God is describe by what he is not rather than attempting the impossible.

But one of the things the intellectualizing West abhors is a vacuum and Lehman Strauss is yet another from the Western Church who tries to fill the void with the empty ramblings of those who ascribe to the 'we have all the answers' doctrine.

If you are seriously looking and seeking God could I urge you to read some basic books on Orthodoxy rather than wasting time with 'the next BIG idea' for the day.

I actually very much agree with the apophatic approach, as presented by Kallistos Ware in "The Orthodox Way" (I have been doing some reading). Its just that, this is the way I was taught the Trinity since my earliest questionings of it, and it is the what I have believed since I have discovered Orthodoxy.

 

[buzuxi02]

In modern usage the triadic aspect of man is mind, body and soul. Jesus says to Love God with all your heart with all your mind and with all your soul(Matt 23.37).

St Paul wrote 'And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly, and pray God your whole spirit and soul and body.' (1thess 5.23).

The terms soul, spirit, nous and heart are interchangeable and in actuality the fathers used these terms to describe the three elements of the human soul. In Orthodox theology the soul itself is a trinity.
Nous - OrthodoxWiki

 

[SoulFoodEater]

I've heard many a time from Protestants, and sometimes Catholics, that man, created in the image of God, is a triune being: with a soul, body, and spirit. According to this statement, God would also be triune in that manner, that the Father is the Soul, the Son is the Body, and the Spirit is the Spirit.

Man A Trinity (Spirit, Soul, Body) | Bible.org - Worlds Largest Bible Study Site

Is this an "orthodox" (small O) explanation of it? Is there any heresy involved here? It seems to make sense to me...

If there is any heresy in this theory, how would you Orthodox (big O)believers explain the Trinity?

Hello everyone.
I was away because I was visiting the Holy Cross monastery in WV.


Anyway. To answer the topic at hand:::

This is actually a very interesting topic. Anyone who has read Orthodox Psychotherapy would know that there are indeed 3 parts to the human being; that he is a trinitarian being. But we do not say that 'body soul and spirit' correspond to the image of the Trinity in the human person; the wisdom that the Fathers set forth goes much beyond this.


7. "Since the Deity is worshipped in the three hypostases of Father, Son and Holy Spirit, the image formed by Him - man, that is - also subsists in a tripartite division, worshipping God, the Creator of all things out of things that are not, with soul, intellect and consciousness. Thus, things by nature coeternal and coessential within God are also intrinsic to and coessential with His image. They constitute the divine image in us and through them I am an image of God, even though I am a composite of clay and divine image."

Nikitas Stithatos
On Spiritual Knowledge,
Love and the Perfection of Living:
One Hundred Texts


29."The soul is tripartite and is considered as having three powers: the intelligent, the incensive, and the appetitive. Because the soul was ill in all three powers, Christ, the soul's Healer, began His cure with the last, the appetitive. For desire unsatisfied fuels the incensive power, and when both the appetitive and incensive powers are sick they produce distraction of mind. Thus the soul's incensive power will never be healthy before the appetitive power is healed; nor will the intelligence be healthy until the other two powers are first restored to health."
St Gregory Palamas
To the Most Reverend Nun Xenia


And last but not least, here is a quote I found to be most profound:

31. "In man there is intellect, consciousness and spirit. There is neither intellect without consciousness nor consciousness without spirit: each subsists in the others and in itself. Intellect expresses itself through consciousness and consciousness is manifested through the spirit. In this way man is a dim image of the ineffable and archetypal Trinity, disclosing even now the divine image in which he is created."


St Gregory of Sinai
On Commandments and Doctrines, Warnings and Promises; On Thoughts,
Passions and Virtues, and Also on Stillness and Prayer:
One Hundred and Thirty-Seven Texts

 

[Gregorios]

This is a topic that is probably best stayed away from...

 

[SoulFoodEater]

This is a topic that is probably best stayed away from...

Its not dangerous to say that the human being is a trinitarian being because this is what the Fathers teach us. They teach us that man has a "Tripartite" soul. This means that there are 3 main parts of the soul. These parts are the intelligent, the incensive, and the appetitive.

This is not a dangerous teaching because how could it be? If anything, it would help strengthen our Faith in the Trinity... If we are made in God's image, how would we also not be trinity? And how could we ever know anything about our own souls without this teaching?





This term "Tripartite", was first created by Plato, a teaching which our Fathers adopted. It is a totally Orthodox teaching which was accepted and used by the majority of the Orthodox Fathers. This is what the glossary of the Philokalia says about this:

APPETITIVE ASPECT OF THEsoul, or the soul's desiring power (tό έπιθυμητικόν- to epithymitikon): one of the three aspects or powers of the soul according to the tripartite division formulated by Plato (see his Republic, Book iv, 4.34D-441C) and on the whole accepted by the Greek Christian Fathers. The other two are, first, the intelligent aspect or power (τό λογιστικόν - to logistikon: see Intelligent); and, second, the incensive aspect or power (τό θυμικόν - to thymikon), which often manifests itself as wrath or anger, but which can be more generally defined as the force provoking vehement feelings. The three aspects or powers can be used positively, that is, in accordance with nature and as created by God, or negatively, that is, in a way contrary to nature and
leading to sin (q.v.). For instance, the incensive power can be used positively to repel demonic attacks or to intensify desire for God; but it can also, when not controlled, lead to self-indulgent, disruptive thought and
action. The appetitive and incensive aspects, in particular the former, are sometimes termed the soul's passible aspect (τό παθητικόν - to pathitikon), that is to say, the aspect which is more especially vulnerable to pathos or passion (q.v.), and which, when not transformed by positive spiritual influences, is susceptive to the influence of negative and self-destructive forces. The intelligent aspect, although also susceptible to passion, is not normally regarded as part of the soul's passible aspect.

 

[Gregorios]

I was ordered to not even pick up the Philokalia by my spiritual father, so that's my answer to that part of your post lol. To quote what the Fathers say about the Trinity is perfectly fine...but to someone who isn't ready to hear the Fathers or for someone who cannot properly interpret what they are saying about such topics, can be very dangerous indeed.

 

[neon_knights]

I own a book with selections from the Philokalia. I very much enjoy it actually, and don't find it hard to understand.

Should I get rid of it?

 

[Gregorios]

I doubt it, plenty of books cite it or quote from it when it is relevent to the topic, it's just reading it as is that I was advised against.

 

[neon_knights]

This is the book
Amazon.com: The Philokalia: The Eastern Christian Spiritual Texts--selections Annotated & Explained (SkyLight Illuminations) (9781594731037): Allyne Smith, G. E. H. Palmer, Philip Sherrard, Kallistos Ware: Books

It is the Philokalia, but only certain selections from it. It really is a great book. Lots of wisdom in there.

 

[Dorothea]

Well, the way I understand it is to know Christ, we have to have the gift of the seal of the Holy Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit that reveals to us who Christ is, and then Christ is who reveals to us who the Father is (paraphrasing). At least that's what Fr. David said in his lecture on what we EO believe.

 

[razeontherock]

In Orthodox theology the soul itself is a trinity.
Nous - OrthodoxWiki

This is a much better comparison of any triune nature of man, and as it pertains to "the image of God," than any other I have seen!

 

[Gregorios]

This is the book
Amazon.com: The Philokalia: The Eastern Christian Spiritual Texts--selections Annotated & Explained (SkyLight Illuminations) (9781594731037): Allyne Smith, G. E. H. Palmer, Philip Sherrard, Kallistos Ware: Books

It is the Philokalia, but only certain selections from it. It really is a great book. Lots of wisdom in there.

One of the reviews of the book says it better than I could:
"Some books should not be read by everyone. This book should not be redacted and made "accessible for you." These writings are for monastics under obedience being guided carefully to read these texts. Are you a monastic? ...No? Read something else!

Seriously, you will be deluded if you try.

Read "On the Jesus Prayer" by St. Ignaty Brianchaninov or "On Prayer, an Orthodox Anthology" by Igumen Chariton. These are for laity to digest and contain the same essential teaching.

Go ask an abbot or abbess of an Orthodox monastery what they think you should read and get your spiritual father's blessing. It's not going to be the Philokalia."

I admit the reviewer is a bit overzealous but his point is valid. Believe me, a lot of problems arise when people read such books without proper guideance, even if it is made accessible, you're better off not reading it at all unless under guideance from an experinced monastic or spiritual father..who as the review said will tell you to read something else.

 

[SoulFoodEater]

This is a much better comparison of any triune nature of man, and as it pertains to "the image of God," than any other I have seen!

Perfect. This is just what I was trying to purport but this explains it much better.
May the Lord reward you for your good word.

I was ordered to not even pick up the Philokalia by my spiritual father, so that's my answer to that part of your post lol. To quote what the Fathers say about the Trinity is perfectly fine...but to someone who isn't ready to hear the Fathers or for someone who cannot properly interpret what they are saying about such topics, can be very dangerous indeed.

I almost say I wholly agree with you Gregorios, the advanced spiritual writings of the monastics can be very risky, especially for a convert. But, the advanced writings (I am not just speaking of the Philokalia) should not be shunned out of ignorance and false-humility, because this would be spiritual suicide. We simply need their instructions because they are lights to teach us about our own souls, and also how to fight the unseen warfare...

Anybody who has ever read the 50 Spiritual Homilies of St Macarius the Great, will see that the advanced spiritual writings do not at all just teach a "wonderland style" Christian way of living by which delusions can occur. St Macarius, in the 50 Great Homilies, speaks about how the Kingdom of Hades itself is itself in our own hearts, and that this kingdom is what constitutes our sin, our estrangement from God.

He says that when we hear in the scriptures, that Christ went down into Hades, we should not just think it was a literal Hades, but it was the Hades of our own heart. Our soul is a tomb and a sepulcher, and Christ comes to heal us completely from the poison of sin in our hearts. This is the poison that keeps the Kingdom of God from coming into our souls.


Anyways, this is all deep stuff that I am talking about, but I believe what St Macarius said, because I have have experience of this in my own soul. Both Hell and Paradise are hidden in our hearts.

You can read his book here: Fifty spiritual homilies of St. Macarius the Egyptian : Pseudo-Macarius : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive

Read this chapter: Fifty spiritual homilies of St. Macarius the Egyptian

 

[wayseer]

I actually very much agree with the apophatic approach, as presented by Kallistos Ware in "The Orthodox Way" (I have been doing some reading). Its just that, this is the way I was taught the Trinity since my earliest questionings of it, and it is the what I have believed since I have discovered Orthodoxy.

That is one of the adventures of living - we find out stuff that overturns our misconceptions. May I encourage you to read further.

I was taught under the same regime as you and it took a while to swing my thinking onto a different plane. Don't expect to grasp it all in one serving - even allowing for the impatience of youth.

The concept of the Trinity actually is derive from tradition. This is not an easy concept to grasp but one which lies at the heart of Orthodoxy.

Tradition is not what has been said - it more often what is not said - but which is known. In other words, if you go looking for it you will not find it. Certainly Tradition is 'endowed' with scripture but as Vladimer Lossky notes, Tradition also comprises unwritten 'other words', that is, all that the Church can add to the Scriptures.

An example. We might wonder how it was that the early Christians took it upon themselves to change the observance of the commandment to 'keep the Sabbath' to 'keep the first day of the week Holy'. Now one can fall into the legalist trap and quote various pieces of scripture and even point to the practice that Jesus 'observed the Sabbath' to prove a point. But, without going into a doctrinal thesis, I, and I suspect so do you, know exactly why the change was made. That is what Lossky mean by 'Tradition'.

But in case you think I am doing nothing more than exercising my own opinion I draw attention to the work of Jaroslav Pelikan, Imago Dei, (1990). In an an argument that is not all that much different to the Trinty, namely the use of icons, Pelikan draws attention to the work of Basil of Caesarea (374) On the Holy Spirit. What Saint Basil draws our attention to is patristic Father's reliance on the unwritten tradition in order to successful argue for, following ambiguity of Nicaea (325), the coequality of the Holy Spirit with the Father and the Son was vindicated both by the written evidence of Scripture and by the traditionary evidence of church custom (p 63-64).

The point being made is that looking for hard evidence in the form of written text is not always in the interests of theology or good spiritual practice.

 

[Kaonashi]

Hello everyone.
I was away because I was visiting the Holy Cross monastery in WV.


Anyway. To answer the topic at hand:::

This is actually a very interesting topic. Anyone who has read Orthodox Psychotherapy would know that there are indeed 3 parts to the human being; that he is a trinitarian being. But we do not say that 'body soul and spirit' correspond to the image of the Trinity in the human person; the wisdom that the Fathers set forth goes much beyond this.


7. "Since the Deity is worshipped in the three hypostases of Father, Son and Holy Spirit, the image formed by Him - man, that is - also subsists in a tripartite division, worshipping God, the Creator of all things out of things that are not, with soul, intellect and consciousness. Thus, things by nature coeternal and coessential within God are also intrinsic to and coessential with His image. They constitute the divine image in us and through them I am an image of God, even though I am a composite of clay and divine image."

Nikitas Stithatos
On Spiritual Knowledge,
Love and the Perfection of Living:
One Hundred Texts


29."The soul is tripartite and is considered as having three powers: the intelligent, the incensive, and the appetitive. Because the soul was ill in all three powers, Christ, the soul's Healer, began His cure with the last, the appetitive. For desire unsatisfied fuels the incensive power, and when both the appetitive and incensive powers are sick they produce distraction of mind. Thus the soul's incensive power will never be healthy before the appetitive power is healed; nor will the intelligence be healthy until the other two powers are first restored to health."
St Gregory Palamas
To the Most Reverend Nun Xenia


And last but not least, here is a quote I found to be most profound:

31. "In man there is intellect, consciousness and spirit. There is neither intellect without consciousness nor consciousness without spirit: each subsists in the others and in itself. Intellect expresses itself through consciousness and consciousness is manifested through the spirit. In this way man is a dim image of the ineffable and archetypal Trinity, disclosing even now the divine image in which he is created."


St Gregory of Sinai
On Commandments and Doctrines, Warnings and Promises; On Thoughts,
Passions and Virtues, and Also on Stillness and Prayer:
One Hundred and Thirty-Seven Texts

I hate to derail but how are they doing at Holy Cross? That's where I visited a couple of semesters ago for a paper I was doing for a Cultural Anthropology class. It had quite a affect on me because I was truly welcomed and not treated as a outsider.