Expect, or not to Expect? That is the question.

[Acts29]

Exo 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

Who is God's peculiar treasure above all people - All Jews or Only Jews that obey his voice and keep his covenant?

A peculiar people above all people only occurs at the Millennium after the regeneration of the whole house of Israel. Some will live and some will not. They are not all saved, nor all lost. Why should they be treated as all lost? God will decide these things. We should not judge before the time. Thus we should treat the Jews with respect.

Which Jews obey His voice and keep His covenant? What percentage? You have no idea. You just assume they are all God haters because they don't believe in Jesus. God speaks to people every day in their spirit. How do you know they all don't listen?
Many in the church don't listen for sure. Should they be accounted as garbage?

God made a covenant with Israel FOR A REASON. Have you ever considered WHY God chose Israel knowing full well they largely wouldn't believe?

God was done with Israel forever at the cross.

God's promises/covenants are worthless? Have you ever read Ezekiel 40-48? He is far from done with Israel. Jesus said plainly that heaven and earth will not pass away until every letter of scripture is fulfilled. Including everything the prophets wrote.

 

[keras]

He said "this generation," and not "the generation that sees the coming of the Lord. And in Luke 21 it is transparently clear that he was talking about the Roman Army surrounding Jerusalem, about to destroy the temple.

Yes; Luke 21:20-24 is about the Roman Conquest in 70 AD.
But; Luke 21:25-28 certainly is not and remains unfulfilled now.

Then in, Luke 21:29-32 Jesus said: ...Look at the fig tree, [Judah] or any other tree. [the other nations] When they bud and send out shoots, you know summer is near. [the final season] So you may know the Kingdom of God is near.
THAT is transparently clear; Judah has been restored as a nation and the other nations are prosperous with modern technology, but the Kingdom hasn't happened yet. We pray: Thy Kingdom come....

 

[Bob_1000]

Romans 11 points out that the Jews are spiritually blind for the moment, but that is not permanent.
Messianc Jews and "Jews for Jesus" and other such movements are the first glimpses of a marvelous work that God is doing to Israel.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

You're right and that time of blindness only lasted from the cross to when God sent the Gentile armies to annihilate Jerusalem in AD 70. The Jews haven't been blinded since then. Every Jew since then has the same ability to see, understand and accept Jesus just like we Gentiles do.

 

[keras]

Thus we should treat the Jews with respect.

Sure we treat everyone with respect. It isn't for us to judge anyone.
But God doesn't; He has no favorites. Romans 2:11
Over 20 Prophesies tell how the Lord intends to virtually wipe out the entire Middle East. His solution to the unsolvable crisis of that area.
Only a remnant of a few Christian Jews will survive. Isaiah 6:11-13, Romans 9:27, +

 

[Bob_1000]

A peculiar people above all people only occurs at the Millennium after the regeneration of the whole house of Israel. Some will live and some will not. They are not all saved, nor all lost. Why should they be treated as all lost? God will decide these things. We should not judge before the time. Thus we should treat the Jews with respect.

Which Jews obey His voice and keep His covenant? What percentage? You have no idea. You just assume they are all God haters because they don't believe in Jesus. God speaks to people every day in their spirit. How do you know they all don't listen?
Many in the church don't listen for sure. Should they be accounted as garbage?

God made a covenant with Israel FOR A REASON. Have you ever considered WHY God chose Israel knowing full well they largely wouldn't believe?



God's promises/covenants are worthless? Have you ever read Ezekiel 40-48? He is far from done with Israel. Jesus said plainly that heaven and earth will not pass away until every letter of scripture is fulfilled. Including everything the prophets wrote.

Funny I didn't see anywhere in the verse that said "you will become a peculiar nation above all peoples at the millennium.... I think you made that part up.

I fear that you also aren't aware that there are two Israels in the bible. 1) The God haters, the children of the flesh and 2) The God lovers, the children of the spirit. That's explained here:

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel (Saved Jews), which are of Israel (Lost Jews):

But I have a feeling that all of this bible truth is going to fall on deaf ears.

 

[Acts29]

Funny I didn't see anywhere in the verse that said "you will become a peculiar nation above all peoples at the millennium.... I think you made that part up.

I fear that you also aren't aware that there are two Israels in the bible. 1) The God haters, the children of the flesh and 2) The God lovers, the children of the spirit. That's explained here:

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel (Saved Jews), which are of Israel (Lost Jews):

But I have a feeling that all of this bible truth is going to fall on deaf ears.

You don't understand prophecy at all. Has any part of Israel been a people above all others at any time of history? No. Prophets prophesy in part. If the parts are not assembled, how can the picture be seen?
Please do me a favor and do not delete your comments for at least two years. Thanks. In about a year once you realize who you are talking to, I think you will quickly try to delete.

Btw, you deliberately exclude the whole of scripture to create a harsh and cruel god to exalt yourself. This also, is scripture.

Psalms 89:30-35 If his children should forsake My law, and walk not in My Judgments; if they should profane My Ordinances, and not keep My Commandments; I will visit their transgressions with a rod, and their sins with scourges. But My mercy I will not utterly remove from him, nor wrong My truth. Neither will I by any means profane My covenant; and I will not make void the things that proceed out of My lips. Once have I sworn by My holiness, that I will not lie to David.LXX

 

[Bob_1000]

You don't understand prophecy at all. Has any part of Israel been a people above all others at any time of history? No. Prophets prophesy in part. If the parts are not assembled, how can the picture be seen?
Please do me a favor and do not delete your comments for at least two years. Thanks. In about a year once you realize who you are talking to, I think you will quickly try to delete.

Btw, you deliberately exclude the whole of scripture to create a harsh and cruel god to exalt yourself. This also, is scripture.

Psalms 89:30-35 If his children should forsake My law, and walk not in My Judgments; if they should profane My Ordinances, and not keep My Commandments; I will visit their transgressions with a rod, and their sins with scourges. But My mercy I will not utterly remove from him, nor wrong My truth. Neither will I by any means profane My covenant; and I will not make void the things that proceed out of My lips. Once have I sworn by My holiness, that I will not lie to David.LXX

Could you post the scripture that I deliberately excluded to create a harsh and cruel God to exalt myself?

Don't worry I wasn't planning on deleting any of my comments ever.

 

[Acts29]

Could you post the scripture that I deliberately excluded to create a harsh and cruel God to exalt myself?

Don't worry I wasn't planning on deleting any of my comments ever.

Already did. But here it is again.
Scripture and comment you posted:
Exo 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

Who is God's peculiar treasure above all people - All Jews or Only Jews that obey his voice and keep his covenant?

Scripture you neglected to for the much-needed context:
Psalms 89:30-35 If his children should forsake My law, and walk not in My Judgments; if they should profane My Ordinances, and not keep My Commandments; I will visit their transgressions with a rod, and their sins with scourges. But My mercy I will not utterly remove from him, nor wrong My truth. Neither will I by any means profane My covenant; and I will not make void the things that proceed out of My lips. Once have I sworn by My holiness, that I will not lie to David.LXX

Things are not as black and white as most want to believe. God's mercies are new every morning. Seeking to trample Israel, even unbelieving Israel, is cruel and unbiblical. The result is to make one appear greater by comparison. God meant what He said. Sadly many "Christians" reject that and seek to make themselves Israel, spiritual Israel, or some other way to covet the promises God made to Israel.

 

[RandyPNW]

Yes; Luke 21:20-24 is about the Roman Conquest in 70 AD.
But; Luke 21:25-28 certainly is not and remains unfulfilled now.

Then in, Luke 21:29-32 Jesus said: ...Look at the fig tree, [Judah] or any other tree. [the other nations] When they bud and send out shoots, you know summer is near. [the final season] So you may know the Kingdom of God is near.
THAT is transparently clear; Judah has been restored as a nation and the other nations are prosperous with modern technology, but the Kingdom hasn't happened yet. We pray: Thy Kingdom come....

I don't really know about the signs in the heavens. That does sound like imminent expectation of Christ's Return. And yes, that is followed by the allegory of the fig tree.

But the fig tree allegory is not following a lineal progress from mention of Christ's Return, or it would be out of order completely. The Fig Tree event would *not* follow Christ's Return!

So this is a reference back to the heart of the Prophecy, which indicates all of the things that will happen in "this generation," the generation of the Apostles. There will be the Birth Pains, consisting of wars, rumors of wars, which likely were Roman wars taking place throughout the Empire. It was a warning that they were about to come to Israel!

And there were signs like earthquakes, which indeed happened in that early generation of the Church. And as Jesus predicted, the *Apostles themselves* would be rejected by their Jewish brethren, and would suffer both dislocation and persecution, by Jews and pagans alike. All this happened in "this generation!"

And Jesus absolutely described it in Luke 21 as Roman troops coming to surround Jerusalem and destroy the temple. This would be the beginning of an age-long period of *punishment* upon the Jewish People, all the way until the end of the age and Christ's Return.

I agree Israel hasn't been saved yet. I agree that Israel has been restored to their land. But these things are *not* what Jesus was talking about in the Olivet Discourse. The inference is that it will take place at his Return, and not before. In the meantime there would be only a small remnant of Jewish believers, which is what we still have today.

 

[RandyPNW]

I'm sure the Pharisees and Scribes saw it that way comparing themselves to the times of the Kings of Judah and Israel, and to the times of the Judges too.

I'm not talking about what scholars think of themselves, or how they judge themselves as good Christians or not! I'm talking about the consensus of doctrinally-orthodox and conservative Christians today about a number of Christian scholars in history with noble reputations. You insult them. And that in itself is not respectable.

Let's say you spend 10 hours a day every day of the week for 3 years trying to please God in Bible Study. You just want to know God's word, and feel compelled to learn it so that you can share with others out of work you've devoted for that cause. You hope that many others, who aren't so gifted, who work other jobs, will be able to benefit from what you love to do.

But then along comes Jamdoc who tells you you're a waste of time. Is that respectable? No! The studied Christian should be commended, just as the Bereans were commended in the book of Acts for checking their facts against the word of God.

Look if you come to the conclusion of a historicist or preterist interpretation based entirely from scripture? I can respect that.
But if your defense is other men outside the bible and leaning on their "noble, diligent study"
then yeah, I'm going to disregard that.

I never just take a scholar's word for anything. I know they're imperfect, just as I'm imperfect. We all make mistakes. But they've added a lot to my knowledge, and I owe them a debt of gratitude.

Let God be true, but every man a liar.
There is too much contradiction with the bible to hold to those interpretations.

I don't force anybody to agree with me. Conviction comes by the Holy Spirit. If you don't wish to hear from the instruments or agents God sends to you, that's your business. Certainly not everything I share is going to be correct. But if I've done my homework, you should show at least some respect, just as I'll respect you for the work you've put in.

 

[keras]

I don't really know about the signs in the heavens. That does sound like imminent expectation of Christ's Return.

But you should know about the Lord's sudden and shocking Day of His fiery wrath. The many prophesied cosmic signs and the earthly effects.
The Lord's Day of vengeance and wrath bears no relation to His glorious Return.

But the fig tree allegory is not following a lineal progress from mention of Christ's Return, or it would be out of order completely. The Fig Tree event would *not* follow Christ's Return!

The budding of the fig tree, happened in May 1948.
To be followed by the Day of fiery wrath, 70 to 80 years later.
Then; all the prophesied events, leading up to Jesus Returning to commence His Millennium reign.

I agree Israel hasn't been saved yet. I agree that Israel has been restored to their land.

The current restoration of Jewish Israelis, is only temporary. Many prophesies say how they will be thrown out again, the Third swing of the Sword; Ezekiel 21:14, and replaced by the Lord's faithful people, from every tribe, race, nation and language.

 

[Jamdoc]

A peculiar people above all people only occurs at the Millennium after the regeneration of the whole house of Israel. Some will live and some will not. They are not all saved, nor all lost. Why should they be treated as all lost? God will decide these things. We should not judge before the time. Thus we should treat the Jews with respect.

Which Jews obey His voice and keep His covenant? What percentage? You have no idea. You just assume they are all God haters because they don't believe in Jesus. God speaks to people every day in their spirit. How do you know they all don't listen?
Many in the church don't listen for sure. Should they be accounted as garbage?

God made a covenant with Israel FOR A REASON. Have you ever considered WHY God chose Israel knowing full well they largely wouldn't believe?



God's promises/covenants are worthless? Have you ever read Ezekiel 40-48? He is far from done with Israel. Jesus said plainly that heaven and earth will not pass away until every letter of scripture is fulfilled. Including everything the prophets wrote.

Not to mention Jeremiah 31 shows that Israel will always be a nation, God gives the illustration that the sun and moon would stop existing before the nation of Israel stops existing in His eyes.

He has kept them as a distinct people group in diaspora for a reason.
The reason is, to bring them into Christ, miraculously.

 

[Jamdoc]

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

You're right and that time of blindness only lasted from the cross to when God sent the Gentile armies to annihilate Jerusalem in AD 70. The Jews haven't been blinded since then. Every Jew since then has the same ability to see, understand and accept Jesus just like we Gentiles do.

That's laughably untrue.

Rabbis skip Isaiah 53 because it so clearly identifies Jesus, that's spiritual blindness on their part.
We're still in the time of the gentiles, it has not reached its fullness yet.

I don't even know why I bother with Historicists and Preterists, speaking of blindness.

 

[RandyPNW]

But you should know about the Lord's sudden and shocking Day of His fiery wrath. The many prophesied cosmic signs and the earthly effects.
The Lord's Day of vengeance and wrath bears no relation to His glorious Return.

I have no idea why you're fixed on this fiery event that you keep talking about. That is never the main focus of eschatology. The main focus is always Jesus' coming to bring eternal judgment to those who have died in the past and who will die in the final conflagration, which is Armageddon.

I don't agree with your fixation. It seems very, very unbalanced. And it produces bad fruit, because when others don't accept it, you judge them.

The budding of the fig tree, happened in May 1948.
To be followed by the Day of fiery wrath, 70 to 80 years later.
Then; all the prophesied events, leading up to Jesus Returning to commence His Millennium reign.

No, I'll never believe that. It wasn't taught in the Early Church, and by historical commentators. It's been taught by a group that you've spend a lot of time denouncing--the Pretribbers.

The current restoration of Jewish Israelis, is only temporary. Many prophesies say how they will be thrown out again, the Third swing of the Sword; Ezekiel 21:14, and replaced by the Lord's faithful people, from every tribe, race, nation and language.

I do believe many Jews will, once again, fail, and not embrace the covenant of Christ which is being held out to them in these times. But I have no sense that they are being "replaced" by anybody. Others will succeed where they have failed. There will be enough Jews who succeed to comprise the complete Israeli nation. This will *not* be, in my view, the Christian world descending upon the Middle East, as you seem to think.

Sorry! I think we know where each other stands on this?

 

[Jamdoc]

I'm not talking about what scholars think of themselves, or how they judge themselves as good Christians or not! I'm talking about the consensus of doctrinally-orthodox and conservative Christians today about a number of Christian scholars in history with noble reputations. You insult them. And that in itself is not respectable.

Let's say you spend 10 hours a day every day of the week for 3 years trying to please God in Bible Study. You just want to know God's word, and feel compelled to learn it so that you can share with others out of work you've devoted for that cause. You hope that many others, who aren't so gifted, who work other jobs, will be able to benefit from what you love to do.

But then along comes Jamdoc who tells you you're a waste of time. Is that respectable? No! The studied Christian should be commended, just as the Bereans were commended in the book of Acts for checking their facts against the word of God.



I never just take a scholar's word for anything. I know they're imperfect, just as I'm imperfect. We all make mistakes. But they've added a lot to my knowledge, and I owe them a debt of gratitude.



I don't force anybody to agree with me. Conviction comes by the Holy Spirit. If you don't wish to hear from the instruments or agents God sends to you, that's your business. Certainly not everything I share is going to be correct. But if I've done my homework, you should show at least some respect, just as I'll respect you for the work you've put in.

a lot of these historical scholarly interpretations, originally came about, because Jerusalem was destroyed, and Israel was scattered, it resulted in people allegorizing and trying to fit together how the prophecies could come to pass, since many were specific to Israel, and to the temple.

So.. 2 schools of thought arose.
1. That the bible doesn't actually mean what it says, it must be allegory.
2. Which builds on the first, that maybe the fulfillments already happened and we just have to understand how.

Ultimately both, are based on the first error, that the bible does not mean what it says and must be understood to be symbols and allegory.

Because the root is error, because I believe the bible does mean what it says, I disregard everyone who has their theology rooted in that error.
Regardless of how much work and effort they put in.

I've never seen evidence of a historicist, preterist, or amillennial that does not base their entire view on interpreting the bible as allegory.

So why would I pay heed to anything they write?

They're a "great Theologian" who doesn't believe the bible.
How great is that?

 

[keras]

I have no idea why you're fixed on this fiery event that you keep talking about. That is never the main focus of eschatology.

Because the Day of the Lord's fiery wrath IS the next prophesied event. It is in over 100 Bible prophesies. 2 Peter 3:7 is just one of them.
Proved by how Jesus stopped His quote of Isaiah 61:1-2, just before; and a Day of the vengeance of our God.

Then the rest of Isaiah 61 prophesies how the Lord will bless His faithful people in the holy Land.

 

[Bob_1000]

Already did. But here it is again.
Scripture and comment you posted:
Exo 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

Who is God's peculiar treasure above all people - All Jews or Only Jews that obey his voice and keep his covenant?

Scripture you neglected to for the much-needed context:
Psalms 89:30-35 If his children should forsake My law, and walk not in My Judgments; if they should profane My Ordinances, and not keep My Commandments; I will visit their transgressions with a rod, and their sins with scourges. But My mercy I will not utterly remove from him, nor wrong My truth. Neither will I by any means profane My covenant; and I will not make void the things that proceed out of My lips. Once have I sworn by My holiness, that I will not lie to David.LXX

Things are not as black and white as most want to believe. God's mercies are new every morning. Seeking to trample Israel, even unbelieving Israel, is cruel and unbiblical. The result is to make one appear greater by comparison. God meant what He said. Sadly many "Christians" reject that and seek to make themselves Israel, spiritual Israel, or some other way to covet the promises God made to Israel.

Sadly many Christians don’t understand that Abraham and every other child of God in the world has two seed lines, the flesh children they bring into the world and the spiritual children they bring into the world. Psalm 89 is about that peculiar people in the verse you think doesn’t mean what it says.

Psa 89:3 I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant,

Out of curiosity do you think Absalom would be a part of that peculiar nation above all nations? How about Saul? How about the Jews in Ezekiel that were worshipping the sun? How about the Jewish women worshipping the queen of heaven?

I look forward to your response but I wont be able to respond back for several hours.

 

[Jamdoc]

Sadly many Christians don’t understand that Abraham and every other child of God in the world has two seed lines, the flesh children they bring into the world and the spiritual children they bring into the world. Psalm 89 is about that peculiar people in the verse you think doesn’t mean what it says.

Psa 89:3 I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant,

Out of curiosity do you think Absalom would be a part of that peculiar nation above all nations? How about Saul? How about the Jews in Ezekiel that were worshipping the sun? How about the Jewish women worshipping the queen of heaven?

I look forward to your response but I wont be able to respond back for several hours.

It's not a replacement of "spiritual children" that just believe as Abraham did.
In fact Abraham asked God of this very thing and God corrected him.

Genesis 15

2 And Abram said, Lord God, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
4 And, behold, the word of the Lord came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.

The idea here is that God is promising Abraham that he will have children born of his flesh that will number like that.
While yes, gentiles can be grafted into the family of God, God still honors a covenant to Abraham regarding his flesh and blood children as well.
Now that is not to say that Jews don't have to be in Christ to enter the kingdom. God forbid.
They are going to be Jewish Christians that enter the kingdom.
when I say God is not done with Israel, that is what I mean, I mean Jews are going to repent and believe that Jesus is their messiah, 1/3 of them according to Zechariah 13.

This is part of why I don't believe in the Post-trib "instant nuke everyone dies" Return of Jesus, but rather that Jesus appears in the clouds earlier, so that the remnant of the Jews can look on Him that they pierced, and mourn with the bitterness of losing a firstborn son, and repent.

if it's just instant nuke everyone dies.. there won't be any repenting, and that crosses that event out of scripture.

 

[Douggg]

Because the Day of the Lord's fiery wrath IS the next prophesied event. It is in over 100 Bible prophesies. 2 Peter 3:7 is just one of them.
Proved by how Jesus stopped His quote of Isaiah 61:1-2, just before; and a Day of the vengeance of our God.

Then the rest of Isaiah 61 prophesies how the Lord will bless His faithful people in the holy Land.

Keras, there is no indication of a CME event changing the middle east in Ezekiel 38 and Ezekiel 39.

There is, however, indication of the sun scorching men and with fire in the fourth vial of wrath in Revelation 16:8-9 at the height of the great tribulation.

8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.

9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

I see no reason though to give a scientific explanation for the woe. The important thing is that it will happen. How much of the earth will be impacted is also not known.

_____________________________________________________

What I think is the next prophesy related event to take place is the changes in the EU that will facilitate the ten kings and little horn being in power. Not as dramatic as the CME that you see coming, but critically important to bible prophecy just the same.

 

[Douggg]

Sadly many Christians don’t understand that Abraham and every other child of God in the world has two seed lines, the flesh children they bring into the world and the spiritual children they bring into the world. Psalm 89 is about that peculiar people in the verse you think doesn’t mean what it says.

Psa 89:3 I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant,

Out of curiosity do you think Absalom would be a part of that peculiar nation above all nations? How about Saul? How about the Jews in Ezekiel that were worshipping the sun? How about the Jewish women worshipping the queen of heaven?

I look forward to your response but I wont be able to respond back for several hours.

Theology is the fixing of men to be right with God.

Bible prophecy is about God fixing a messed up creation caused by Satan and his angels. Our responsibility is get on board with God's way to do it. Don't try to manage it for Him.

Bringing the Jews back to the land of Israel is part of God's course. If God decides to save a generation of people, who in the past had failures and successes, by a course of events which brings them to salvation, what is it to us to disagree?

Israel a nation again is a fact. Don't fight it, it is part of God's course to fix creation, and destroy Satan and his angels, who are at the root of why everything is so messed up, long before us in this forum and the Jews over there in Israel.