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Expect, or not to Expect? That is the question.

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Acts29, Nov 12, 2021.

  1. RandyPNW

    RandyPNW Well-Known Member

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    The "fig tree" allegory was just used to bolster a modern wish to make this about Israel in the contemporary world. Futurists want every prophecy to be about our own generation! That's what makes prophetic interpretation a form of "sensationalism," which I think the Bible wishes to prohibit.

    "With respect to the coming Kingdom, don't let anything *excite you* unduly." Paraphrased from 2 Thes 2.1

    1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.

    Matt 24.26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it...36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

    Acts 1.7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”


    No, I think believing that misleads people. We need to understand what Jesus was saying--not what *we think* helps people better. The truth is what helps us--not doctored Scriptures.

    Funny, I don't feel "silly." ;)
     
  2. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    The House of Judah is called the 'fig tree'. Jeremiah 24:5-7, Matthew 21:19
    They surely didn't bud and were restored to the Land in the first Century!

    Matthew 24:32-34 is definitely for our time, as are many prophesies for the few years prior to Jesus Return.
    What I wish and pray for; is the Lord to get on and do what He plainly says He will; that is to destroy His enemies, especially all those peoples in the Middle East; the holy Land area. Zephaniah 1:14-18, Isaiah 66:15-17, Ezekiel 30:1-5
    We Christians can then enjoy His Blessings to us as we live in peace and prosperity in all of the holy Land. Jeremiah 8:10, Isaiah 65:9
    This is a disgusting and rude accusation. I do not 'doctor' any scripture. My understanding of Matthew 24:32-34 is quite common, in fact I'm sure the preterist view is the minority.
    Believing the commentators and the wise and learned in their comments on Prophecy, is silly; Jesus and Paul said so. Matthew 11:25-26, 1 Corinthians 1:19-20
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2021
  3. Bob_1000

    Bob_1000 Well-Known Member

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    The whole thing about the parable of the fig tree and all the other trees is that summer wass coming. The parable has nothing to with the rebirth or restoration of a dead tree or nation.
     
  4. Jamdoc

    Jamdoc Watching and Praying Always

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    definitely not. Jesus withered a fig tree then said it was a parable.
    AD70 was the withering
    and in the 20th century it sprang new leaves.
     
  5. Bob_1000

    Bob_1000 Well-Known Member

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    Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

    Now you post the verse that shows the parable being about a withered tree that's brought back to life.
     
  6. Jamdoc

    Jamdoc Watching and Praying Always

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    Seriously man Jesus was not breaking out of an eschatology discussion to talk about weather.
    He was making a comparison between two things.
    That when someone sees a fig tree bringing leaves, that means the season for the fig harvest is on the way.
    Similarly, when you see Israel coming back from a state of dormancy, you know that Jesus' harvest is on the way.
    and Jesus further backed it up with saying that these things would happen within a lifetime.

    He withered the fig tree because it was unfruitful.
    Similarly, He withered Israel because it was unfruitful.
     
  7. Acts29

    Acts29 Member

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    .
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2021
  8. Bob_1000

    Bob_1000 Well-Known Member

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    Lol, no he wasn't talking about the weather he was telling us to go to the Old Testament and find out what summer brings.

    Amo 8:1 Thus hath the Lord GOD shewed unto me: and behold a basket of summer fruit.
    Amo 8:2 And he said, Amos, what seest thou? And I said, A basket of summer fruit. Then said the LORD unto me, The end is come upon my people of Israel; I will not again pass by them any more.

    The exact opposite of Israel being brought back to life. God was done with Israel forever at the cross.
     
  9. Jamdoc

    Jamdoc Watching and Praying Always

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    ah yes, replacement theology, a poison that throws everything off.

    Look
    if God annulled His covenants with Israel, you have no way to trust He won't do the same to us.
     
  10. RandyPNW

    RandyPNW Well-Known Member

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    Yes, it did. Fig trees *always* bud, no matter how damaged they are. The problem was, the product was just leaves, and not fruit. Jesus was disappointed that the fig tree he encountered wasn't producing fruit. It was an example he was making--it may not have even been the time of year for it to produce fruit!

    What Israel, the "fig tree," was doing was supposed to be embracing their Messiah, and producing good works of righteousness. Instead, they rejected their Messiah, and produced a "still-born child." They did not produce good fruit.

    Instead of bringing blessings for their obedience, they brought warning signs from God of imminent destruction, and omens of coming judgment. There were wars and rumors of wars within the Roman Empire, which threatened to punish the Jews for their resistance and disobedience. There were earthquakes, indicating God's displeasure with Israel. And the righteous, Jews who embraced Jesus, were persecuted, which was a sure sign of coming judgment.

    No, it definitely (from my pov) is not for our time! It was a warning to "this generation," as Jesus described in, meaning the generation he was himself living in, the generation of his apostles.

    What Jesus was predicting were the birth pains of the coming destruction of Jerusalem, which would happen in 40 years. All of those signs were present in the generation of Jesus' apostles, as well as the destruction of Jerusalem itself.

    My purpose was not to be rude, although it came on the backdrop of your claiming my view and those of the scholars are "silly."

    This is not exclusively the Preterist view, and I'm not a Preterist. From my pov you are in fact "doctoring" what Jesus said, though I'm not accusing you of intentionally misleading people.

    He said "this generation," and not "the generation that sees the coming of the Lord. And in Luke 21 it is transparently clear that he was talking about the Roman Army surrounding Jerusalem, about to destroy the temple.

    And so, are you are being "disgusting and insulting" to all of the noble, diligent and studied scholars in Christina history! Take a step back, brother!
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2021
  11. Jamdoc

    Jamdoc Watching and Praying Always

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    The scribes and Pharisees were the noble, diligent, and studied scholars of their day.

    and Jesus had a lot of choice words to say to them.
     
  12. RandyPNW

    RandyPNW Well-Known Member

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    What you're failing to understand is that Christianity was just coming to a backslidden country. Paul had not yet been converted to Christianity, and he certainly was a noble, diligent, and studied scholar!

    Countries have their ups and downs. Countries have converted to Christianity, and have ascended as a country. And then, they inevitably go back down, falling into backsliding, just as Israel did.

    We can't expect good scholarship at a time when a country is in a state of backsliding. But when a country has produced good Christian scholars, we can expect some good fruit. And it's shameful that you treat these brothers with contempt.
     
  13. Acts29

    Acts29 Member

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    I agree completely. Though, going a bit further, I would say those who teach replacement theology and thus are saying God's covenant is no good, are essentially declaring God to be a liar. That might sound harsh, but it is true. Faith, at its root, is an affirmation that God is true. Unbelief, at its root, is an accusation against God.
     
  14. Jamdoc

    Jamdoc Watching and Praying Always

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    I'm sure the Pharisees and Scribes saw it that way comparing themselves to the times of the Kings of Judah and Israel, and to the times of the Judges too.

    Look if you come to the conclusion of a historicist or preterist interpretation based entirely from scripture? I can respect that.
    But if your defense is other men outside the bible and leaning on their "noble, diligent study"
    then yeah, I'm going to disregard that.

    Let God be true, but every man a liar.
    There is too much contradiction with the bible to hold to those interpretations.
     
  15. Jamdoc

    Jamdoc Watching and Praying Always

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    That's why I refer to it as a poison.
     
  16. Bob_1000

    Bob_1000 Well-Known Member

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    It's funny that you accuse me of replacement theology when you're trying to replace the good Jews that loved God and kept commandments with the Jews that hated God and hated his commandments. Take a look at who God's chosen people actually are.

    Exo 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

    Do you see what you're doing? You''re calling ALL JEWS God's chosen people but the reality is that ONLY the Jews who loved God, obeyed God and kept his covenant were God's chosen people.
     
  17. Bob_1000

    Bob_1000 Well-Known Member

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    I would say that you've bought into a lie from the pit of hell because God never chose God hating rebellious, stiff-necked, enemies of the gospel Jews to be his people. God only chose the Jews that loved God, obeyed God and kept his covenant.

    That means that the Jews as whole have never been and never will be God's chosen people. Only the Jews and Gentiles that love God, obey God's voice and keep his covenant have ever been and will ever be God's chosen people.
     
  18. Acts29

    Acts29 Member

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    God specifically chose a rebellious stiff-necked people for a reason. All will not see life, but He knew what He was doing before He chose them.
    Are you saying that every single unbelieving Jew in the world today hates God? Perhaps some of them have met people like you and that is why they don't believe. Should they be destroyed because they don't believe those who hate them?
     
  19. Bob_1000

    Bob_1000 Well-Known Member

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    Exo 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

    Who is God's peculiar treasure above all people - All Jews or Only Jews that obey his voice and keep his covenant?
     
  20. Jamdoc

    Jamdoc Watching and Praying Always

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    Romans 11 points out that the Jews are spiritually blind for the moment, but that is not permanent.
    Messianc Jews and "Jews for Jesus" and other such movements are the first glimpses of a marvelous work that God is doing to Israel.

    in fact I'll just throw this out there
    Romans 11
    and that's the power of God, that these seemingly "God is done with them" people as you claim, are going to be grafted back in. Most notably when they see Jesus in the clouds.
    Why do you think that they mourn as if for a lost firstborn?

    Zechariah 12
    It's the realization that they have been so wrong for so long. It'll be a massive revival for the tribes of Israel. Revelation 7 and 14's 144,000? Those aren't gentiles.
    They're descendants of specific tribes of Israel for a reason, to show that God has not forgotten them and that even if we thought that some of these tribes have been lost, GOD has not lost them (though apparently Dan and Ephraim have been truly lost, the books of Kings show the cutting off of the tribe of Ephraim)
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2021
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