Excellent talk by awake Christian leader !

[TLK Valentine]

Exercise their free will to obey Him.

And yet, they exercised their free will regardless.

That way they would live.

They lived regardless. And if they hadn't, is a choice made under penalty of death really a choice made from free will?

Not to do so was not the life they were created for

"The life they were created for"?

Whatever happened to that free will you were talking about a minute ago?

 

[TLK Valentine]

Assuming that physical death was not meant, like the creatures, we have to assume he knew as the serpent argued about it with Eve.

Why should we make these assumptions?

 

[bmjackson]

Thankfully, I have been able to clear up my muddied thinking on Genesis 3 with the help of John David Pawson. It is just something that I had not studied in depth, so I am grateful and thank you that I have been required to do so as it has been such a blessing.

Not sure whether I can post links but if I can:

David Pawson - 05: Genesis Chapter 3

david pawson genesis 3 - Bing video

but easily found on a search.

It says that death is physical as well as spiritual. It is physical as God had created man to be eternal but after he lost his innocence by gaining knowledge of good and evil, it would not be good for him to live eternally in that state. So he entered into the state of mortality and die eventually. God would later send His Son to further His plans of producing a 'bride' for Himself in the form of redeemed mankind.

Thanks for the discussion.

 

[SkyWriting]

Increase speed to 1.5. He says we do not have to comply with governments that condone killing unborn babies.

Only Christians do. Others don't.

Hebrews 13:17
Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.

1 Peter 2:18-20
Servants, be subject to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the unjust. For this is a gracious thing, when, mindful of God, one endures sorrows while suffering unjustly. For what credit is it if, when you sin and are beaten for it, you endure? But if when you do good and suffer for it you endure, this is a gracious thing in the sight of God.

1 Timothy 5:17
Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching.

Romans 13:1-7
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. ...


1 Peter 2:13-17 Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme, or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good. For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people. Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants of God. Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor.

2 Corinthians 2:9
For this is why I wrote, that I might test you and know whether you are obedient in everything.

Titus 3:1
Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work,

1 Corinthians 2:13
And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.

 

[bmjackson]

So Christians should obey dictators like Hitler?

'Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching.'

It's about elders in the church.

 

[alertandawake]

Did you watch the whole video? He wasn’t adding anything to text. He was explaining how we are not to follow ungodly government.

Bible also says “And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.”

So, if ungodly government says to you, that you need to do something against God’s will, you have to choose do you follow government or God.

If you follow government over God, then government is your God.


Bible also talks about how we are not trust men because they can be corrupted.

“Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.”

Sunshinee777, You made some good points here. I recall reading Chapter 13 of Romans but had to read it again. As with all things there has to be a context.

I will further add to this, so if a governing body (or some other authority )has finally decided that the time has come for people to take the Mark of The Beast, are we suppose to submit and take it? Thing is, I see people lining up for this simply because of people submitting to a governing authority having this kind of mindset "Well that's what it said to do in Chapter 13 of Romans ".

 

[TLK Valentine]

It says that death is physical as well as spiritual. It is physical as God had created man to be eternal but after he lost his innocence by gaining knowledge of good and evil, it would not be good for him to live eternally in that state.

Why not? Knowledge of good and evil makes it easier (some would argue possible) to avoid the latter.

So he entered into the state of mortality and die eventually. God would later send His Son to further His plans of producing a 'bride' for Himself in the form of redeemed mankind.

Did he ever plan on getting the 'bride's' consent, or was this a shotgun wedding from the start?

 

[TLK Valentine]

So, if ungodly government says to you, that you need to do something against God’s will, you have to choose do you follow government or God.

Which has nothing to do with abortion -- the government isn't telling anyone they need to abort, it's allowing those who wish to to do so.

So abortion is a poor excuse for ignoring vaccine/mask mandates.

 

[bmjackson]

Why not? Knowledge of good and evil makes it easier (some would argue possible) to avoid the latter.



Did he ever plan on getting the 'bride's' consent, or was this a shotgun wedding from the start?

TLK, you will never find Christ through logic, if indeed you are a seeker and not just a pot stirrer. The more truth I present to you, the more you mock it. To avoid adding to your list of disrespect towards your Maker, I will end with a prayer for you, that God will touch your hardened heart as you are in a desperate state if you but knew it.

 

[Tinker Grey]

TLK, you will never find Christ through logic, if indeed you are a seeker and not just a pot stirrer. The more truth I present to you, the more you mock it. To avoid adding to your list of disrespect towards your Maker, I will end with a prayer for you, that God will touch your hardened heart as you are in a desperate state if you but knew it.

Wow

• The admission that your beliefs aren't logical
• The arrogance of asserting that you have Truth™ even though you can't demonstrate it
• The condescension of asserting that you know more about someone's state than they do

And all in one post!

 

[TLK Valentine]

TLK, you will never find Christ through logic

I never said I was looking for him.

if indeed you are a seeker and not just a pot stirrer.

If you don't stir the pot, the recipe is ruined.

The more truth I present to you, the more you mock it.

Maybe you should take a closer look at what you're selling as "truth"?

To avoid adding to your list of disrespect towards your Maker, I will end with a prayer for you, that God will touch your hardened heart as you are in a desperate state if you but knew it.

While I will never be as blessed as, say, yourself, I must ask why you felt it necessary to announce your intention to pray for me -- was it for His glory or your own?

 

[TLK Valentine]

Wow

• The admission that your beliefs aren't logical

...which is odd. The point of accepting a religious or spiritual system is to provide a lens through which to view the wider world. Why embrace a paradigm which makes the world less sensible?

• The arrogance of asserting that you have Truth™ even though you can't demonstrate it

As well as the insistence that such "truth" is not to be questioned.

• The condescension of asserting that you know more about someone's state than they do

That's common enough.

And all in one post!

Quite the hat trick!

 

[partinobodycular]

The more truth I present to you, the more you mock it. To avoid adding to your list of disrespect towards your Maker, I will end with a prayer for you, that God will touch your hardened heart as you are in a desperate state if you but knew it.

There's nothing like a veiled threat to highlight your compassion.

 

[TLK Valentine]

There's nothing like a veiled threat to highlight your compassion.

Not so much a "threat," but the contempt that is often there comes closer to the surface.

Either way, it's a poor witnessing tool.

 

[bmjackson]

Please cease railroading this thread and start your own thread if you wish to continue.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Please cease railroading this thread and start your own thread if you wish to continue.

We're addressing the argument presented in the OP -- we find it unconvincing.

Personally, I find any argument to change secular law "because the Bible says....." to be fundamentally unconvincing.

But, if you like, perhaps you can help me out with the question I asked in post #70: "so what happens when a woman in, say, Texas or Arkansas, decides to flip the script and ask why she should be forced to carry a pregnancy to term by a government that can't even compel men to wear a mask in the middle of a pandemic?"

 

[bmjackson]

We're addressing the argument presented in the OP -- we find it unconvincing.

Personally, I find any argument to change secular law "because the Bible says....." to be fundamentally unconvincing.

But, if you like, perhaps you can help me out with the question I asked in post #70: "so what happens when a woman in, say, Texas or Arkansas, decides to flip the script and ask why she should be forced to carry a pregnancy to term by a government that can't even compel men to wear a mask in the middle of a pandemic?"

No woman is forced to carry a child she wants to murder. Whether she does that safely or not is up to her. Safely while doing it will cost a lot more. I proved the first point myself when offered an illegal abortion. Breaking the law is a bit less than murder I think.

 

[TLK Valentine]

No woman is forced to carry a child she wants to murder. Whether she does that safely or not is up to her. Safely while doing it will cost a lot more. I proved the first point myself when offered an illegal abortion. Breaking the law is a bit less than murder I think.

You're making no sense, and not even addressing the question.

First of all, abortion isn't murder.
Second, does what safely, and cost more how?
Third, you proved nothing because abortion is legal
Fourth, murder is breaking the law... which abortion is not.

So... try again?

 

[bmjackson]

Sorry no. Will not try again. I suspect you are deliberately misunderstanding me in order to get a rise out of me. No time for that. May God have mercy.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Sorry no. Will not try again. I suspect you are deliberately misunderstanding me in order to get a rise out of me. No time for that. May God have mercy.

Suspect all you want, but the fact remains that you didn't make a cogent point here.

And God always has mercy, even without your permission.