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Featured Examples of Sacred Tradition

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Tree of Life, Apr 21, 2018.

  1. narnia59

    narnia59 Regular Member

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    Post 354
     
  2. faroukfarouk

    faroukfarouk Fading curmudgeon

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    The Word of God is left as our guide. Psalm 119.105. Acts 2.42 gives an account of how the early Christians continued steadfastly" “And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.”
     
  3. faroukfarouk

    faroukfarouk Fading curmudgeon

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    I would have a hard time leaving 'ecclesiastical authorities' to read things into Scripture that are actually not necessarily there at all.
     
  4. narnia59

    narnia59 Regular Member

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    Yes, they continue in the doctrine the apostles are teaching. Christ leaves us his apostles as his teaching authority (Matthew 10:40, John 16:14-15, Matthew 28:19-20, Mark 3:14, 1 Thess 2:4, 2 Cor 1:21-22, 2 Tim 1:11, Titus 1:1-3).

    This is why when they gather in Acts 15 and are debating whether or not the Gentiles have to follow the Mosaic Law, they don't have a debate over Scripture. They resolve the issue based upon the testimony of Peter and the revelation he received directly from God.
     
  5. faroukfarouk

    faroukfarouk Fading curmudgeon

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    Hebrews 7.12 says the law was changed; and what we now have have is better than the law (Hebrews 7.19). Still the record of what is revealed and authoritative for us is all in the Scriptures. The Berean spirit of Acts 17.11 is to be commended: "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

    I think we are probably talking cross-purposes, though.
     
  6. 4x4toy

    4x4toy Newbie Supporter

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    I am not an elder in an organized church , I am an elder in the body of Christ .. Some folks will get dependent on you instead of Jesus and I despise when that happens because they missed the point, some elders seem to enjoy the power .. They must learn to access God then they begin to be on their own and focus to work out their own salvation . So we all disappoint if folks see us as perfect or if I pretend I'm something I'm not but only Jesus fulfills that role, when the babes in Christ began to know we are not perfect or pretend we are then they begin to grow up to follow Jesus ..
    kinda like this John 1:35-37
     
  7. narnia59

    narnia59 Regular Member

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    We may be. I've had an extensive discussion about the Bereans in another thread, but I'll sum it up here. They are indeed commended to being open to what Paul brings them -- the 'word' -- the good news of Jesus Christ. And learning Scripture is always a good thing. But if they had relied on Scripture alone and rejected the oral teaching of the Church, when Paul told them that the historical person of Jesus Christ had died, risen from the dead, and fulfilled those Scriptures they would have asked him where that information could be found in Scripture, and it would not have been there for them to see. They accepted the oral proclamation of the church, the teaching authority that Christ had established to believe that Christ was the Messiah they had been waiting for.
     
  8. 4x4toy

    4x4toy Newbie Supporter

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    I'm open to what Paul taught so is every ''born again'' Christian ..
     
  9. narnia59

    narnia59 Regular Member

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    Are you open to that which he taught if you can't find it explicitly in Scripture?
     
  10. ~Cassia~

    ~Cassia~ Devoted to Truth Supporter

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    I agree with that estimation of being what I would assume to be still under a governor system.

    According to that scripture the religious people then were looking for credentials of prophetic value such as the Messiah, Elijah or a prophet would have ( John 1:19-25 ) but the visual they got was a lamb active with a dove. Christ redeems and the Holy Spirit brings unity with the Godhead.

    So we see the 2 disciples that walked away from the milk of their training to follow Jesus as the meat of being discipled by Him. They began that training with their first question “where do you abide?”

    I don’t think they realized the magnitude of that question as being the outline of all the training to come.

    The meat of that training resulted in themselves being enthroned with Him where He abides today.

    It is a simple equation for some. Resurrected power in unity with Christ seated in the heavenliness with Him is a place of constant vigilance or state of prayer because of the cleansing that no teacher/leader can ever give and that a disciple is incomplete without. But once acquired the Master is the teacher and not the go-between or governor that kept safe within the guidelines that which others must use to lead them to the throne of grace/resurrected power.

    That used a lot of words to just say basically what you just said. But I agree.
     
  11. Eloy Craft

    Eloy Craft Myth only points, Truth happened! Supporter

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    The Bereans recieved the Apostles message as the True authority over the Pharisees. The Thessalonians didn't. Sola Scriptura would have never been throught of back then.
     
  12. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    It's exactly nine months after March 25th. When early Christians were discussing when Jesus was born a common thought at the time was that since the Lord, being perfect, had to have had a perfect life; it was generally believed at the time that Jesus was crucified on March 25th of the year He died, as such He must have been conceived or born on the same day He died--March 25th. As such, some thought March 25th was the date of His birth, others instead thought He was conceived on March 25th and then they added exactly nine months to arrive at December 25th for the date of His birth. Over time December 25th was adopted by the various churches as the day to celebrate the Lord's birth, eventually becoming official in the 5th century--except in Armenia where the Church there (which after the Council of Chalcedon was no longer in communion with the Chalcedonian-confessing churches) where January 6th remained (and remains even today) the celebration of Christ's birth by the Armenian Church: As many had done in antiquity by celebrating the Lord's birth as part of the larger (and older) celebration of Epiphany/Theophany.

    Lots of claims, little to no evidence. It's been claimed that Mithras, Dionysus, Buddha, and Krishna were all born of virgins on December 25th. Small problem, of course, being that none of it is true. These are claims that are found among the Christ Mythicists who believe Jesus was nothing more than a myth cobbled together from the stories of gods and other divine figures of other religions. Mithras wasn't born on December 25th to a virgin, neither was Dionysus, Siddhartha (Buddha), Horus, Osiris, or Krishna. Mithras wasn't born, he emerged as a fully formed adult from solid rock. Dionysus was the offspring of Semele (a mortal woman) and Zeus, and was born from Zeus' literal thigh. Siddhartha was the natural child of his parents, not born on December 25th since that's a Roman calendar that wasn't used in India. Horus is the child of Isis and Osiris after Isis had sex with a reassembled Osiris--not on December 25th. Krishna was the natural offspring, and eighth child, of his parents, and his birth celebration is known as Krishna Janmashtami which falls in the Hindu month of Shravaana, which corresponds to August-September on our calendar.

    The "lots of gods were born on December 25th" thing simply isn't so. The Romans did celebrate the Dies Natalis Solis Invicti (Birth Day of the Unconquered Sun) on December 25th, but the first mention of this dates to the mid-4th century in the Philocalian Calendar, well after Christians had already been mentioning December 25th as Jesus' birth date for at least a hundred years or more.

    Interestingly enough, even into modern times shepherds in the Holy Land have overwintered their flocks in the fields surrounding Bethlehem, because it is mild in the area during the winter. So theoretically Jesus could have been born in the winter and it would have made complete sense for shepherds to be tending to their flocks in the fields around Bethlehem at that time of year.

    [​IMG]


    Christians.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
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  13. 4x4toy

    4x4toy Newbie Supporter

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    No, probably not simply because I am fully equipped and can't be fooled by an imposter .. What does test and try the spirits mean to you ? My first test is the Word must confirm, as another poster said even the devil knows scripture so by the spirit proper contest is gleaned and normally backed up in other scriptures .. Galatians 1:8 .. I think we can be inspired and given wisdom in personal testimony but even then it must be backed up with scripture .. When someone tells me ''the Lord give me this'' then I listen and judge it according to the Word and if my spirit bears witness one with another in fellowship .. Also signs that accompany those who believe . Even including taking up poisonous snakes or drinking deadly poison among the other signs .. But don't freak out there are spiritual snakes and poison too .. Driving out demons, speaking with new tongues, laying hands on the sick that they recover ..
     
  14. 4x4toy

    4x4toy Newbie Supporter

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    Thanks but there was a reason for scripture stating what it does that leads to the fall of the year .. So that and others reasons of convenience explains why Dec 25 is only a man made tradition .. Does Constantine figure in ? I think it sets the stage for a lot of what we see if so .. Then there is reference to John , Jesus cousin probable time of birth and that timeline ..
     
  15. narnia59

    narnia59 Regular Member

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    That you would not be open to anything Paul taught that couldn't be explicitly found in Scripture confirms the reality that the Bereans are not a good example to use to uphold sola-Scriptura, because they were open to his oral teaching.

    Test and try the spirits to me does not mean to look for the answer in Scripture and decide. It means to do exactly what John tells us to do when he wrote that passage. In verse 1 of 1 John 4 he tells us to test the spirits because many false prophets have come to be -- "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God; for many false prophets have gone out into the world. "

    In verse 6 he tells us exactly how to do that when he says "We are of God. Whoever knows God listens to us, and he who is not of God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error."

    John doesn't direct people to test the spirits by going to Scripture; he tells them to listen to the apostolic teaching authority established by Christ. It is a theme that is repeated over and over again in Scripture -- the apostles have been given the authority by Christ to preach and teach in His name, and they alone have been entrusted with the Gospel. They become the foundation of Christ's Church, which is the "pillar and bulwark of the truth" (1 Timothy 3:15) and it is the church that will be used to make known the manifold wisdom of God (Ephesians 3:10). It seems pretty straighforward to me.
     
  16. 4x4toy

    4x4toy Newbie Supporter

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    You're reaching
     
  17. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    The problem comes in when people and churches take this that you are describing and talk as though the Apostles were also empowered to transfer their commissions (from Christ) and authority to people who came later, who then transferred it to still later generations, etc. I am not speaking of Apostolic Succession BTW.
     
  18. narnia59

    narnia59 Regular Member

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    I think it's a reach to believe the way you are supposed to test the spirits is to go to Scripture and decide for yourself since John tells us how to do it, and that's not the way.
     
  19. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

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    A graven image in Scripture is the issue, and which is not the dishonest presentation you resort to along with your vain attempt to abrogate the command not to set up graven images for worship. While you also resort to the charge of fallacy it is you manifests such. But trying to reason with you (and get you to answer questions) has become an an exercise of futility, and i see little warrant in trying to continue.
     
  20. narnia59

    narnia59 Regular Member

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    How would you describe what you are saying as opposed to apostolic succession?
     
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